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Fallacy or Reality?: "Winning Systems Are Never Sold"

  • #41
  • Edited 4:41am Jun 16, 2014 4:16am | Edited 4:41am
Quoting Magix
{quote} I have created several winning systems and at most, have moderated the number of participants by asking for a Minimum $5 donation to the users charity of choice. Everything that I have done and released semi-private and for free always comes with the disclaimer that risk will always be present with any Market Entry... That being said, our current projects and soon to be released...will be the same... Users are currently testing a DEMO only version and upon release, if they want a live trade version, it will be for a charitable donation... All the rooks that think they have they have some mystical market edge and are afraid to release even a slight hint, typically don't last that long...reason being...it wasn't that good to start with. A lot of the rooks that write killer code on EAs, have exactly that...killer code, but don't know shit about market, ergo have to sell the EA for profit. There are several ways to skin the cat and for the most part, the heavily sought holy grail already exists...people just don't know how to use it. Anyways... The current and in test...soon to be released for charitable donations has a current forward winning streak tracked HERE. Perfection?? No... Better than most you will find? I'd let you be the judge... {image}

You mad Bro ?

30 days old, 1:500 leverage demo crap with 60% drawdown ? Seriously but that's something that can be achived without any system or even trading expirience...

I don't want to sound harsh as I don't know a shit about You but that's just silly to post crap like that then sit back and wait for applause

On Topic ~

First You'd have to define what system is ? As somebody already stated Forex is an speculative market and it's just an simple probability game... no need to rush for being right all the time. 99,9% of traders that do earn money on FX are not predicting... we act acording to what we see. That means You can't really sell "the winning system" as the true edge is not hidden in few lines on chart or in any indicator.. It comes to play when You have to take the decision acording to curent situtation.
  • #42
  • Jun 16, 2014 4:17am Jun 16, 2014 4:17am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Maybe not. What I have noticed in people who sells systems ( to be fair I have bought only two), is that they NEVER discuss money management. There are system right here on FF that give logical signals. The question is always, how to manage lot size, SL, and take profit. I believe that is the trick to making and keeping money.
I concur. How one gets into a trade is irrelevant.
The ONLY thing that must be of any concern is the money at risk.
Money-at-risk - how to manage lot size, SL, and take profit - is the only "system" in my book...

Anything else is pure delusion.
  • #43
  • Jun 16, 2014 4:18am Jun 16, 2014 4:18am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} The question is always, how to manage lot size, SL, and take profit.
The above, I dedicated a few topics to this in the past. Most of the described systems consists of 80% entry, 15% SL, 5% TP. Even if SL's and/or TP's are described its usually just some static fixed SL amount on entry. Post entry management of SL's and TP's are hardly ever described.
  • #44
  • Jun 16, 2014 4:24am Jun 16, 2014 4:24am
Quoting Mingary
{quote} Indeed. I contend that a winning trader (if it exists) does not rely on an automated system to win. Therefore a "winning sytem" cannot exist, and if it's for sale it's a fraud !

The important thing is THE TRADER, NOT the system. Any system may do making money by the experienced trader.

IF AUTO system may make money, DO you think the BIG BOYS can not make it (the robot)? NO robot may make money. Trading ia dealing with human greed and fear. robot may not read it.
  • #45
  • Jun 16, 2014 4:27am Jun 16, 2014 4:27am
Quoting jmn5611
Trading is like flying. It's not the take off that will kill you. It's the landing.
I really like that. That could be a great signature. So true.
Ghost Rider - WWTBMD?
  • #46
  • Jun 16, 2014 4:35am Jun 16, 2014 4:35am
Quoting albchr
{quote} I really like that. That could be a great signature. So true.
yes but you stand a higher chance of being killed during a take-off crash

http://www.1001crash.com/index-page-...numpage-3.html
tradewith60
  • #47
  • Jun 16, 2014 4:42am Jun 16, 2014 4:42am
Quoting antonsatu
{quote} The important thing is THE TRADER, NOT the system. Any system may do making money by the experienced trader. IF AUTO system may make money, DO you think the BIG BOYS can not make it (the robot)? NO robot may make money. Trading ia dealing with human greed and fear. robot may not read it.
I'm sorry to say but I do not agree, it goes beyond your theory.. The textbooks say exactly what you say; its about the trader and not about the system. Let me tell you that in fact the system is more important. Everything can be implemented in your system, including mind easing procedures for efficient non-hesistant placing trades. An experienced trader is more like a scientist that is mixing all his/her experience about the market and mindset into one cocktail that will eventually result in a system with a perfect synergy between relative easy entries and management. Once you reached that level emotions will be eliminated by a bunch, thanks to your well defined system.
  • #48
  • Jun 16, 2014 4:42am Jun 16, 2014 4:42am
Quoting 60minuteman
{quote} yes but you stand a higher chance of being killed during a take-off crash http://www.1001crash.com/index-page-...numpage-3.html
LOL
Ghost Rider - WWTBMD?
  • #49
  • Jun 16, 2014 4:53am Jun 16, 2014 4:53am
Quoting Robertk
{quote} I'm sorry to say but I do not agree, it goes beyond your theory.. The textbooks say exactly what you say; its about the trader and not about the system. Let me tell you that in fact the system is more important. Everything can be implemented in your system, including mind easing procedures for efficient non-hesistant placing trades. An experienced trader is more like a scientist that is mixing all his/her experience about the market and mindset into one cocktail that will eventually result in a system with a perfect synergy between relative...
Yes but put a system in a new traders hands. if a black swan happens, what will happen?
  • #50
  • Jun 16, 2014 5:01am Jun 16, 2014 5:01am
Quoting Robertk
{quote} I'm sorry to say but I do not agree, it goes beyond your theory.. The textbooks say exactly what you say; its about the trader and not about the system. Let me tell you that in fact the system is more important. Everything can be implemented in your system, including mind easing procedures for efficient non-hesistant placing trades. An experienced trader is more like a scientist that is mixing all his/her experience about the market and mindset into one cocktail that will eventually result in a system with a perfect synergy between relative...
I humbly submit that this is where the fallacy lies.
"A well defined system" is an impossibility that takes one on a never ending search ... or ends when all the money runs out.
  • #51
  • Jun 16, 2014 5:12am Jun 16, 2014 5:12am
Quoting Wuza
{quote} You mad Bro ? 30 days old, 1:500 leverage demo crap with 60% drawdown ? Seriously but that's something that can be achived without any system or even trading expirience... I don't want to sound harsh as I don't know a shit about You but that's just silly to post crap like that then sit back and wait for applause On Topic ~ First You'd have to define what system is ? As somebody already stated Forex is an speculative market and it's just an simple probability game... no need to rush for being right all the time. 99,9% of traders that do earn...
you just caught him at the wrong time bro.. the system will keep making money. .dont worry.. drawdowns? its part of the system.. 500 leverage is not a problem too. i only average down using more lots sizes as "cost averaging" dont worry it will come back..cost averaging u know.. cost averaging..
  • #52
  • Jun 16, 2014 5:30am Jun 16, 2014 5:30am
Great topic, and I see you ruffled a few who sell their wares......

Selling trading systems is the same as selling Amway.

They prey on new, frustrated, traders, and have to constantly get followers to keep the pipeline filled.

The same is going on with "LIVE TRADING" rooms.

They recruit people to them, offer existing users discounts for referrals, then nail them with a monthly fee and if the person renews for 3-4 months they made their money for the year. Sound like multi-level marketing?

I have seen it so many time with friends and family and it makes me sick these business' are allowed to rip people off like this.

But in the end, its the person signing up for the service who is at fault, looking for a short cut.

Trading is really hard and takes years of losing money to build your skills. There is no short cuts.

When you explain to people just how much money you have to lose before you start making money on consistent basis, most do not believe you.

Every trader I know blew up multiple trading accounts before they started making real , consistent money, and yes many of them paid for systems that helped them blow those accounts up.

Lastly, Im not saying you should not read, study, and research what kind of approach you should take , but you do need to take all that knowledge and build it into a system that becomes yours. And once its yours, dont sell it and ruin it. Trade it, make money, and enjoy the spoils ....

Regards....

Sure those selling their wares will reply with the usual blather to protect the status quo ...



The other do
  • #53
  • Jun 16, 2014 5:31am Jun 16, 2014 5:31am
Quoting Kuat
{quote} Yes but put a system in a new traders hands. if a black swan happens, what will happen?
True but thats a different story. I definitely agree that traders who simply copy pre-defined systems will 99.999% fail in the end ( or perhaps make a very low amount of pocket money ). Why, because they have the wrong mindset in the first place and added zero trading experience to their cause.
  • #54
  • Jun 16, 2014 5:53am Jun 16, 2014 5:53am
letsay you have a system that makes you 1-3%/month and you only have 100$ to trade with.

i think selling the EAis quit logical thing here and its not scamming either.

Will the EA work after you have sold a 1000 copies?

if you think no than sell for a price that is worth loosing the edge, if yes than all is good i guess.
.
  • #55
  • Jun 16, 2014 5:56am Jun 16, 2014 5:56am
Quoting mapleleafnj
Great topic, and I see you ruffled a few who sell their wares...... Selling trading systems is the same as selling Amway. They prey on new, frustrated, traders, and have to constantly get followers to keep the pipeline filled. The same is going on with "LIVE TRADING" rooms. They recruit people to them, offer existing users discounts for referrals, then nail them with a monthly fee and if the person renews for 3-4 months they made their money for the year. Sound like multi-level marketing? I have seen it so many time with friends and family and it...



Greg Secker's Knowledge to Action comes to mind...
and many others...
  • #56
  • Jun 16, 2014 6:11am Jun 16, 2014 6:11am
Quoting nasir.khan
letsay you have a system that makes you 1-3%/month and you only have 100$ to trade with. i think selling the EAis quit logical thing here and its not scamming either. Will the EA work after you have sold a 1000 copies? if you think no than sell for a price that is worth loosing the edge, if yes than all is good i guess. .
If You can produce an EA that is constantly making 1-3% a month then You won't be talking with retail customers and selling it on E-bay for few bucks...
Then You might start thinking if it should be Ferrari or Lambo that will suit your new beach house..

The only thing You can sell and call it a system is an EA that's an fact.

Anything else is just an part of your strategy.. and the most important factors which are money management, discipline and ability to react acording to what's going on on that given moment is not something that can be packed into the UPC branded box and sent to another country..

There are no shortcuts on FX Market..
  • #57
  • Jun 16, 2014 10:16am Jun 16, 2014 10:16am
Quoting Wuza
{quote} You mad Bro ? 30 days old, 1:500 leverage demo crap with 60% drawdown ? Seriously but that's something that can be achived without any system or even trading expirience... I don't want to sound harsh as I don't know a shit about You but that's just silly to post crap like that then sit back and wait for applause On Topic ~ First You'd have to define what system is ? As somebody already stated Forex is an speculative market and it's just an simple probability game... no need to rush for being right all the time. 99,9% of traders that do earn...
Seriously?

What's with all the Meme shit?
&&
What is the question here?

Are there accounts available with 1:500? Yes, there are...
60% drawdown on an account trading multiple pairs on a martingale, with a $1500 start...so, what would it be if we started at $3000, or $5000? Is the 1:500 still available? Yes, and then the actual DD goes down...doesn't it?

Would $6k per month not find a nice place in your own account? What if you had 2 accounts? What are the gains you need to see before you can accept that winning systems are available?

Seems to be another thread, where even if information is provided, and in current...it still isn't enough...

Fight and talk bullshit all you want.

My point was, I have produced, still winning systems for FF that are automated and have given them away, FOR FREE!
I have another that is the best of what I have worked on and it will be available for a Charitable donation...

My answer to the thread is, FALLACY.

Do whatever you want with it...It's of no consequence to me.
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
  • #58
  • Jun 17, 2014 9:47am Jun 17, 2014 9:47am
huhhh.........

Give me any system that you think "bad system", I will trade with it, and making green pips. NOT the system is the most important thing, BUT the trader hismself. Selling a system is a way to make money. As long as the seller does not lie or cheat, it is fine. And the buyer should learn the soul of the system; ask the seller "what is the soul?, what is the strength, what is the weakness?. How to deal with the weakness?

Hope all friends here are making green pips.

Regards,
anton
  • #59
  • Jun 19, 2014 1:10pm Jun 19, 2014 1:10pm
Quoting Fractalist
I am starting this thread to have a logical discussion about an idea that is prevalent in our FX world, the idea that if somebody invents/discovers something truly useful they would never sell it.
read the book entries and exits. in 2006 there was a guy named schutzman that had a hedge fund based on 3 systematic trading systems . one of which was based on ma cross and one of which had at most 8 lines of code. the fund back then had a couple of millions under management . look how much capital and the evolution of the fund. http://www.briarwoodcapital.com/stat...nceResults.pdf
  • #60
  • Jun 23, 2014 4:10am Jun 23, 2014 4:10am
I agree with the thread starter.
If somebody really finds a treasure map, He/she will never share it with anybody, rather try to find the gold by him/herself.

People with successful system, generally doesn't sell there course rather they became fund manager, no need to sell course.
Discussion is an exchange of knowledge;argument is an exchange of ignorance
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