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Fallacy or Reality?: "Winning Systems Are Never Sold"

  • #21
  • Jun 9, 2014 6:26am Jun 9, 2014 6:26am
The winning system idea is a myth.

Trading is not like architecture, you can't just find the blueprint and carry out the build, time and time again. Don't believe me? Try it.
People want it to be like this and if you do to consider this the reality then you have to permit the additional reality which is, the system would have already been discovered by people smarter than you or me... it would be used up by now and the owner would theoretically have all the money in the world. (I know it's not that straight forward).

Instead, trading is more akin to sports. You can know how to play the game, you can understand what separates the good from the bad but to be a top athlete yourself (or even a semi-pro) you need to have what the rest have and more, it's not easily explainable and this is the problem that perplexes people on these forums.

People arrive at forex or trading in general thinking "I'm quite intelligent, I can work this out" and they slowly discover that like any other advanced discipline, it's extremely difficult to make it. The basis has to be a solid understanding of finance and the markets. You can't just decide to become a professional basketball player by taking something specific like a "how to achieve professional 3 point shooter ability in 6 months" course... but this is how people approach finance, as if it would be any easier lol. Also, don't just focus on forex, foreign exchange trading is merely a huge ancillary market to the other market functions, it's utility to the world is what makes it so unpredictable but until you know the basics, it's not worth trying to take money out of it because it will just frustrate you.

For the people looking for a winning system, I'd instead advise you to look for something else, a primer in finance. Study the markets, maybe devote yourself to an advanced economics course like Open Yale Economics degree material (I used this course early on in my own journey) http://oyc.yale.edu/economics/econ-252-11#sessions and then compound this knowledge with good reading... and not reading stuff like "how to make money trading".. instead look for the "why the markets exist and who uses them" type of material. Simply learning about what is real, tangible and operational in the financial markets today will be much more of a winning system than any of the garbage "systems" you will find on here.

You're currently trying to find a quick recipe for gold within an alchemists forum. Broaden your horizons!!!!!
  • #22
  • Jun 9, 2014 7:36am Jun 9, 2014 7:36am
agree with you that maket is unpredictable BUT this game is not about prediction, its about probability and thats the reason
why most Indicators just fail...

most systems are profitable but only in their curve fitted enviroment, when the market condition is good even a simple moving average
will make a decent profit but beware if it gets choppy, same with counter trend or trend EA...

if a system has absolute TP or SL in pips itīs damned to fail... you have to choose dynamic exits or averaging on martingale.

Magix and others has already profen that a TOG can work with a sufficient trigger, and sure oversold Stochastic alone isnīt enough.
just do it
  • #23
  • Jun 9, 2014 8:56am Jun 9, 2014 8:56am
[quote=Magix;7521727]{quote} Yes, REALLY... Your cat cannot make money in market. Not on a demo account...not on a real account... I don't need to wait 3-5 years to talk...I can talk now. The market hasn't changed...it's the same market place everyday. And there are people that continue to prosper by it, using cost averaging techniques...EVERYDAY!!! There are several things inside of your ignorance that are readily apparent... You, are one of the many, who just don't get it. Not my fault. No need to be mad at me.. Look in the mirror, Champ.
  • #24
  • Jun 9, 2014 10:12am Jun 9, 2014 10:12am
Theoretically winning systems make money for their owners and there is no need for selling them. But I heard about selling algo-trading firm that made profits to larger institution for 100+$ millions. Don't remember it's name and the market it was involved in. Not available for poor guys.
Every human is a lie & me too.
  • #25
  • Edited 12:37pm Jun 9, 2014 11:54am | Edited 12:37pm
Lol I think the question you should ask yourself is. Would you sell a system, or EA or whatever that prints money everyday? I think I would be interested in seeing such a poll, I would even believe that the poll would be more than 80 percent in favor of not selling.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
  • #26
  • Jun 9, 2014 2:32pm Jun 9, 2014 2:32pm
Well, I'm trading for a living by using an extremely simple system, which is out there free in the web for everyone to use, I just implement it in a way that my winners are covering the losses more than 10 times. Of course, I have to use an EA in order to put orders fast enough, which would be impossible if I had to do it without the help of the expert, but I still have to check on it and manually manage the trades to minimize losses and maximize profits. Some things could be done by a computer, but the processor doesn't have the same point of view as a human does. The computers and all the scripts made for them are based on math calculations and predictions, while as far as I know, the forex market is unpredictable. So there we go - I found a good match between a machine and the human capabilities, which for me seems to be extremely profitable. My personal opinion is that everyone has to figure out their own way, because just like sports, the forex market isn't for everyone. If you can't be profitable on your own, why someone should tell you their strategy, created and tested for thousands of hours, sleepless nights and lots of cigarettes just like that, for free or $129 or $2000 (which is a normal weekly profit for most of the people who are trading for a living), so you can get profit for having absolutely nothing done? If you have internet access, you can read all the books you need, all the articles on the topic, everything that might help you get on your own way. Your OWN way. Trading on the market is a business just like any other - you can fail, you can stay and take lots of profits, it all depends on you and your personality. Ask yourself - if you have a bookstore, how would you treat your clients - rough and emotionally affected or calm and kind?
  • #27
  • Jun 9, 2014 4:11pm Jun 9, 2014 4:11pm
exactly, Trading is like playing sports!

I used to think 'like playing sports' is only the major way of trading--since there's some smart guys on wall st to use computer and math knowledge to deal with the market--then i realised i was wrong, these guys also spent years efforts to tackle trading in their way. it was NEVER they had a mathematical idea and code it and became profitable.

Trading is a SKILL to 99.9% traders!

it is skill, not knowledge or academic subject or research topic or as you said, blueprint.

it takes years of sweat,blood to master this skill.

Quoting TranceTrader
People want it to be like this and if you do to consider this the reality then you have to permit the additional reality which is, the system would have already been discovered by people smarter than you or me... it would be used up by now and the owner would theoretically have all the money in the world. (I know it's not that straight forward). Instead, trading is more akin to sports.
  • #28
  • Jun 10, 2014 12:52am Jun 10, 2014 12:52am
Quoting Magix
{quote} Yes, REALLY... Your cat cannot make money in market. Not on a demo account...not on a real account... I don't need to wait 3-5 years to talk...I can talk now. The market hasn't changed...it's the same market place everyday. And there are people that continue to prosper by it, using cost averaging techniques...EVERYDAY!!! There are several things inside of your ignorance that are readily apparent... You, are one of the many, who just don't get it. Not my fault. No need to be mad at me.. Look in the mirror, Champ.

Well i opened a demo account under my cat's name. Let it pick up or down.. and i made a million bucks...

like i said..cool story bro..keep it to yourself.. tell yourself 1,000 times and then more so you can believe it
  • #29
  • Jun 10, 2014 9:37am Jun 10, 2014 9:37am
Quoting Kuat
{quote} Well i opened a demo account under my cat's name. Let it pick up or down.. and i made a million bucks... like i said..cool story bro..keep it to yourself.. tell yourself 1,000 times and then more so you can believe it
No...you didn't. No, your cat didn't, either.

Of course, I could be wrong, you know...with you providing some sort of proof by way of equity gains or a myfxbook link...

But you can't...Right?

Because you are full of shit...Right?

I've been around smack talking fools like you for years...probably around you before under a different nick...really, this isn't your first identity at FF is it? Showing this sort of disdain towards any member, with a membership status as green as yours, is typically a tell tale sign that you have been bounced out of here before and are still feeling the burn.

What point does your passing along misinformation even serve?
Why do you even bother?

Granted, I see your obvious ignorance...but why don't you try to learn from others who can teach, instead of just being a total dick?

Without a doubt...I believe that your membership at FF will most likely be short lived with the continuation of this posting antic...that, or your IP will be compared and your nick will just be flagged and banned, same as your previous attempts at trolling...

I tell ya what though...

IF you can come up with anything that may be thread relevant and as a valid argument to anything I have posted, feel free to ASK. I can use this as a coaching opportunity and maybe others can glean a little information from future replies.

Deal?
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
  • #30
  • Jun 16, 2014 2:11am Jun 16, 2014 2:11am
lets see joined FF since Feb 2009.. i'll round down.. 5 years..10,438 spam posts.. ok round down.. 10k

2k post a year. divided 365 .. roughly 5.5 post a day for the past 5 years..and still trading demo.. speaks volume
  • #31
  • Jun 16, 2014 2:37am Jun 16, 2014 2:37am
Quoting Kuat
lets see joined FF since Feb 2009.. i'll round down.. 5 years..10,438 spam posts.. ok round down.. 10k 2k post a year. divided 365 .. roughly 5.5 post a day for the past 5 years..and still trading demo.. speaks volume

Took you a week to come up with this? And this is the best you can do?


Yes...I test EAs on DEMO...I already stated that this was being tested on demo...the problem with this is????
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
  • #32
  • Jun 16, 2014 2:53am Jun 16, 2014 2:53am
This are winning systems right here on FF for free. Try them all out.

Then you will come to understand......

Entries do not matter.

Trading is like flying.

It's not the take off that will kill you.

It's the landing.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #33
  • Jun 16, 2014 2:59am Jun 16, 2014 2:59am
Quoting Fractalist
I am starting this thread to have a logical discussion about an idea that is prevalent in our FX world, the idea that if somebody invents/discovers something truly useful they would never sell it. Opinions are welcome, but please try to provide a logical substantiation for whatever you say. Lets explore the idea a bit further. I believe that the conventional thinking believes that if a person were merely in possession of a winning technique that they would be able to immediately convert that knowledge into cash winnings, sufficient such so that...
My view on systems is this Fractalist. Buy dips in a bull market, sell rallies in a bear market. Trends are instrument and time frame specific, so the M1 trader can make money as well as the MN trader can. There are a billion ways to ID trend and then establish triggers. Of course, you also need RTM strategies, and the experience to know when to use each one.

So, the controversial answer I will give to this is yes, winning systems are for sale. The question is, will they win for you.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #34
  • Jun 16, 2014 3:12am Jun 16, 2014 3:12am
It's so obvious that there can never, ever be a winning trading system - long term.
If such a beast existed some organization / individual would own the universe...
This is the equivalent of believing lead can be turned into gold.
Forex alchemists are funny creatures.
Myth busted, totally.
  • #35
  • Jun 16, 2014 3:31am Jun 16, 2014 3:31am
Quoting Mingary
It's so obvious that there can never, ever be a winning trading system - long term. If such a beast existed some organization / individual would own the universe... This is the equivalent of believing lead can be turned into gold. Forex alchemists are funny creatures. Myth busted, totally.
I disagree. I think there can be winning systems. The thing is that you can have a 90% win rate and still blow up.

I think the whole idea of having a winning system and owning the world is not a valid argument because of size. At some point, the institutional traders, the Soros of the world will notice you. At a very high level currency values is not about making money, it is a form of warfare. Just a concept for peer review, let the flames begin!
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #36
  • Jun 16, 2014 3:43am Jun 16, 2014 3:43am
No winning system,
ONLY winning traders.

Think deeply about it. And you understand. If you still do not understand, you are still not experienced enough yet.
  • #37
  • Jun 16, 2014 3:51am Jun 16, 2014 3:51am
Quoting antonsatu
No winning system, ONLY winning traders. Think deeply about it. And you understand. If you still do not understand, you are still not experienced enough yet.
A winning system implies that anyone can use it. It implies that it's automatic... just turn it on and watch the millions pour in..
Therefore, by your statement one can deduct that a winning system cannot exist.
  • #38
  • Jun 16, 2014 3:54am Jun 16, 2014 3:54am
Quoting Mingary
{quote} A winning system implies that anyone can use it. It implies that it's automatic... just turn it on and watch the millions pour in.. Therefore, by your statement one can deduct that a winning system cannot exist.
Well now if you put it that way, then you are spot on! The trader has a lot to do with whether system can win or not.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #39
  • Jun 16, 2014 4:04am Jun 16, 2014 4:04am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Well now if you put it that way, then you are spot on! The trader has a lot to do with whether system can win or not.
Indeed.
I contend that a winning trader (if it exists) does not rely on an automated system to win.
Therefore a "winning sytem" cannot exist, and if it's for sale it's a fraud !
  • #40
  • Jun 16, 2014 4:10am Jun 16, 2014 4:10am
Quoting Mingary
{quote} Indeed. I contend that a winning trader (if it exists) does not rely on an automated system to win. Therefore a "winning sytem" cannot exist, and if it's for sale it's a fraud !
Maybe not.

What I have noticed in people who sells systems ( to be fair I have bought only two), is that they NEVER discuss money management. There are system right here on FF that give logical signals. The question is always, how to manage lot size, SL, and take profit.

I believe that is the trick to making and keeping money.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
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