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Order flow trading thread

  • #61
  • May 14, 2014 8:16am May 14, 2014 8:16am
Quoting srmfx
{quote} You can't. I trade for more than 15 years and worked as risk manager and FX dealer also.
Yeah but I'm just trying to have a conversation and you're just trying to impress me.
like totally failure brah
  • #62
  • May 14, 2014 9:00am May 14, 2014 9:00am
Quoting simonb
{quote} Yeah but I'm just trying to have a conversation and you're just trying to impress me.
I'm not. For 15 years I've learned that you must impress only the market. There's no point to impress the others and loose money trading.
  • #63
  • May 14, 2014 10:49am May 14, 2014 10:49am
I have to be honest by saying I don't really have any idea what you mean by order flow? Is it currency strength? Momentum? Volume?

There is no central Forex exchange so you cannot track volume. That is why I figured out how to track momentum. Momentum for me is the part of the trade where price moves vertically, or for profit.

Currency strength is nice but the signals are not good enough to trade against to me. I have gone as far as customizing the signals to speed them up, but even then, you can get head faked on small reversals.

So, if it is neither of volume nor currency strength, then I am just guessing what you mean by order flow is the actual orders placed...buy, sell, and close. For that, you might want to consider a Level II Platform. That platform shows the orders placed and pending. It is an awful lot of data to sift through though. But hey, if that's your thing, you can attempt to learn it
You cannot be extraordinary by being normal
  • #64
  • May 14, 2014 10:52am May 14, 2014 10:52am
Quoting dkrock
I have to be honest by saying I don't really have any idea what you mean by order flow? Is it currency strength? Momentum? Volume? There is no central Forex exchange so you cannot track volume. That is why I figured out how to track momentum. Momentum for me is the part of the trade where price moves vertically, or for profit. Currency strength is nice but the signals are not good enough to trade against to me. I have gone as far as customizing the signals to speed them up, but even then, you can get head faked on small reversals. So, if it is neither...
Tick volume is a good proxy for volume.
  • #65
  • May 14, 2014 11:00am May 14, 2014 11:00am
Quoting Mingary
{quote} Tick volume is a good proxy for volume.
Thanks, but that concept is beyond my understanding too. I track momentum based on sample size, not individual trades, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

Volume in Forex is just a trade. It does not indicate the size or direction. It is just someone did something. I have no idea why you would track ticks, but I am looking at a 5M candle that shows volume 978. So 978 ticks took place in a 5 minute period. Can you tell me whether the candle closed higher or lower than its open from knowing it had 978 ticks?

Your broker may have only had 798 ticks during the same 5 minutes. Sorry, but I don't understand your tick comment. Please expand.
You cannot be extraordinary by being normal
  • #66
  • May 14, 2014 12:53pm May 14, 2014 12:53pm
Quoting Mingary
{quote} Tick volume is a good proxy for volume.
Tick volume is a measure of volatility. To have a better idea of the traded volume you need to watch also the size of the ticks.
  • #67
  • May 14, 2014 1:04pm May 14, 2014 1:04pm
Quoting dkrock
{quote} Thanks, but that concept is beyond my understanding too. I track momentum based on sample size, not individual trades, so I have no idea what you are talking about. Volume in Forex is just a trade. It does not indicate the size or direction. It is just someone did something. I have no idea why you would track ticks, but I am looking at a 5M candle that shows volume 978. So 978 ticks took place in a 5 minute period. Can you tell me whether the candle closed higher or lower than its open from knowing it had 978 ticks? Your broker may have...

example:

1st 5 minutes:

978 ticks took place and the price moved 10 pips
Next 5 minutes
100 ticks took place and the price moved 15 pips

Why is there a difference? What happened in those ten minutes?
What is happening in this market that the price move 10 pips on 978 pips, but had a larger move on only 100 ticks?
You will find the same phenomenon with actual volume.
  • #68
  • Edited 1:24pm May 14, 2014 1:07pm | Edited 1:24pm
Quoting simonb
{quote} Yep. or you can just not! Order flow is BS.. It sold some books, that's about it. Order flow is trading as it's always been. That is my only point. Fundamental "Sentiment": is just a fundamental feel (understanding of the current economic situation, perhaps the way certain "players" are positioned and the way news or events will affect it) Technical Analysis "Stops" "Limits" "Orders" "option Barriers": Usually just your run of the mill S/R Supply/Demand Round Number/ psych, levels Hope I didn't ruin the ending for you

Ok, If you say order flow is BS then that is fine, it's not you're trading style, I would still pop over to the technically room to discuss, why the pattern looks like a butterfly so that must mean the price is about to take off. A technical trader in the classical sense, is like a detective sniffing around and at the end of his analysis he places a trade. Whether that be patterns or candle width whatever. That's fine, but I get to see a side of the market that few get to see, All those signals you get that were drawn on the chart, well I have a better grasp of which currencies are responsible and how much buying went on at that area. Even price breakout from a range I get to see, the volume involve and on a scale of 1 - 10 can quite successful guess if it's a genuine breakout. You're telling me that having live market data, about buying and selling is BS?. Like I said my method might be a little crude compare to what a banker might have, but i'm smaller and he has to fight for liquidity so we both have problems. Can I tell you how much EURUSD were bought over the last hour exactly, no, But I can tell you more EUR was bought than USD, and that is very important information, to me at least.

I am happy that you're trading is going good for you but I have different things that I am solving, Flow trading is the only way that I know that you can use correlation live while it is happening, close to the start of the move, so when is a signal valid? trust me, a signal that is valid and one that is not look very different when you can see the spokes of the market turning. in flow a signal is valid when huge volume is behind it and money is flowing that's all, nothing else. The market doesn't care about your analysis, when money is flowing move out the way are you are going to get run over.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
  • #69
  • May 14, 2014 1:09pm May 14, 2014 1:09pm
Quoting srmfx
{quote} Tick volume is a measure of volatility. To have a better idea of the traded volume you need to watch also the size of the ticks.
There is no size in forex "volume"
1 tick = 1 trade. (actually not a true statement but close enough)
  • #70
  • May 14, 2014 1:29pm May 14, 2014 1:29pm
Quoting simonb
{quote} 15 years and you still can't spell lose ... We had a thing going there but now we're here. Come on convince me about your point. Can you even remember what it was, take your time
I'm not going to let you bring down the morals and standards that I want present in my thread. If you can't be respectful, I am sure there might be ways to remedy that. This is thread about Flow trading, not a beauty pageant.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
  • #71
  • May 14, 2014 1:32pm May 14, 2014 1:32pm
Quoting dkrock
{quote} Thanks, but that concept is beyond my understanding too. I track momentum based on sample size, not individual trades, so I have no idea what you are talking about. Volume in Forex is just a trade. It does not indicate the size or direction. It is just someone did something. I have no idea why you would track ticks, but I am looking at a 5M candle that shows volume 978. So 978 ticks took place in a 5 minute period. Can you tell me whether the candle closed higher or lower than its open from knowing it had 978 ticks? Your broker may have...

Tick Volume is just a proxy, an estimation, for example, on the 4 hour chart, in the London/New York overlap the currency that was bought the most there, was the one that was bought the most, most of the times for the entire day. And You can keep a note of that, and if the price dips back down to that area, you would know that there was real demand there at the time. That's a way you can use it in a technical sense.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
  • #72
  • May 14, 2014 1:34pm May 14, 2014 1:34pm
Quoting Mingary
{quote} There is no size in forex "volume" 1 tick = 1 trade. (actually not a true statement but close enough)
you can get idea of the volume in FX by reading the quotes. larger quotes mean that larger orders were filled and if the TV is higher that means that the traded volume should be larger. FX is an OTC market and only the dealing desks at larger banks have better idea of the volume.
actually, when I trade I don't need info about the exact size of the volume. I just need to know that if I buy someone is buying also with large orders.
  • #73
  • May 14, 2014 1:39pm May 14, 2014 1:39pm
Quoting 21vs7
aha sooo What are the rules to buy a strong currency when its weak? Why? Which currency you sell? Why? What is the level you are buying it? Why? Where are potential targets of your trade? Why? What changes next seconds when you enter? Why? How do you monitor those changes? Why? What are steps towards Optimizing PL? Why?

All those questions of yours are very important, and we all have to use the information that we have to make the best decisions that we can make. I don't have all those answer either but I am finding the clues one by one. The more information that make sense, then the better I become at knowing where the market is going to go. Like I said I am still learning, so this thread was to get other people's opinion of how they get there information about order flow, and how they use that information.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
  • #74
  • May 14, 2014 1:39pm May 14, 2014 1:39pm
Quoting srmfx
{quote} you can get idea of the volume in FX by reading the quotes. larger quotes mean that larger orders were filled and if the TV is higher that means that the traded volume should be larger. FX is an OTC market and only the dealing desks at larger banks have better idea of the volume. actually, when I trade I don't need info about the exact size of the volume. I just need to know that if I buy someone is buying also with large orders.




reading the quotes? larger quotes mean that larger orders ....?

Where do you see that.

Thanks
  • #75
  • May 14, 2014 1:43pm May 14, 2014 1:43pm
Quoting saneblane
{quote} I'm not going to let you bring down the morals and standards that I want present in my thread. If you can't be respectful, I am sure there might be ways to remedy that. This is thread about Flow trading, not a beauty pageant.
Sandy, me calling you sandy don't fk with anything, right!!.. just wanna make sure, lol
Passion, Persist, Patience, Protect
  • #76
  • May 14, 2014 2:08pm May 14, 2014 2:08pm
Quoting FXEmpire
{quote} Sandy, me calling you sandy don't fk with anything, right!!.. just wanna make sure, lol
No man not at all. Just chillin, I grew up in a big family so we had to give and take, it's cool. If you called me Shirley now we would have had a big problem.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
  • #77
  • May 14, 2014 2:24pm May 14, 2014 2:24pm
Quoting saneblane
{quote} No man not at all. Just chillin, I grew up in a big family so we had to give and take, it's cool. If you called me Shirley now we would have had a big problem.
cool Shirley it is then.. lol
Passion, Persist, Patience, Protect
  • #78
  • May 14, 2014 3:02pm May 14, 2014 3:02pm
Thanks for the reply guys, I am just scratching the surface of this thing. I have come to realize that the market much like a wind-up doll is just a reaction of currencies (money)winding it up. What I have noticed is that some parts of the market is not only quantifiable, but also calculated. You can call it slaughtering of the lambs if you want, but before the slaughter takes place the market is wind-up a certain way to maximize profits for who ever is behind it.

Coupled that with the market having a start and stop point, yes I use to think it was one long winding road, but it's more like a relay race where it slows down for the baton to be past to do the other lap and you get a better picture. Trading one chart is just trading less than half the information that is going on, and the rest that spill over onto your chart is classified as randomness because you don't know where it comes from. I don't have all the answers, but I am thankful that I get to see not only the wheels of the machine spinning but i also get to see under the hood.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
  • #79
  • May 14, 2014 3:15pm May 14, 2014 3:15pm
Also if anyone has any theories about the way the market works and the way money flows, then please post it so we can all hear and bounce ideas around. I know it's hard sharing crazy views on the market sometimes for fear of ridicule, but I put mine out there and I am glad I did, even if I leave FF now, some of the ideas I have gotten on this thread probably saved me years to find out on my own. You can learn something from anyone is my way of thinking, thanks again guys and keep it coming.
Being a trader is lonely, but being a great trader is lonelier still
  • #80
  • May 14, 2014 9:22pm May 14, 2014 9:22pm
I played with "some orderflow back in the years" but It was confusing for me due the fact "waiting to hunt for that random heavy order" could take so long staring that you'll fall asleep when it happen...

And also one of the "flaw I see in orderflow is .the limit and stop order. They are virtually zero cost to create and yet it "contribute to the movement of orderflow without ANY order being place... which totally make NO SENSE"

I can create buy limit for ...say 100 standard lot at about 30 pip below current price and then "remove it" after...price move near my buy limit...
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