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  • #25,421
  • Apr 21, 2014 11:30am Apr 21, 2014 11:30am
Quoting HiddenGap
This really isn't a quiz, so much as a query. You've already established that there is a Supply/Demand Delta Zone in this area of the cart using some rule-based criteria. You don't have to concern yourself with predictions to impress the nameless and faceless many on the internet. You are reactive, not predictive in mind-set. It's all about seeing what you want to see, where you want to see it. So price moves into the where. The question becomes, what do you want to see? Do you see a short entry signal? Is it a single interval or a series of intervals...
HG nice to see you throwing out a make you think chart.

I may at some point put together a response but I want to see if anyone else offers up their views on this. Yes there are short entries (good and not so good depending on SL placement). Single bar can give you an entry signal (time to pull the trigger) but should never be the reason. The reason to go short should already be built and in place based on the PA series that came before the signal bar printed. By the time this bar prints we should already know we are looking for a short (in this case).

This chart also raises a few additional questions for me that would cause me to look even further left to understand why PA unfolded the way it did.
Today's zone = Tomorrow's opportunity!
  • #25,422
  • Apr 21, 2014 12:06pm Apr 21, 2014 12:06pm
Quoting HiddenGap
This really isn't a quiz, so much as a query. You've already established that there is a Supply/Demand Delta Zone in this area of the cart using some rule-based criteria. You don't have to concern yourself with predictions to impress the nameless and faceless many on the internet. You are reactive, not predictive in mind-set. It's all about seeing what you want to see, where you want to see it. So price moves into the where. The question becomes, what do you want to see? Do you see a short entry signal? Is it a single interval or a series of intervals...
A. Effort to rise
B.Test
C:Low Vol Upthrust
D: Support Coming in
E:No Demand
F+G: TWo Bar Reversal, i actually do not know what you would consider this.
H: Possible Test, Unsure about this one either.
I: Effort to rise, however, lower volume compared to both the upthrust and the previous effort to rise.
J. Not sure what this would be labeled
K. Upthrust
L:Not sure
M:Up bar, but with supply coming in due to upper wick.
N: out of place No supply?

Third bar after N might be the safest, at that point you've had an upthrust, down movement, another upbar with a upper wick, and now this bar with another upper wick on increased volume. Showing price has gone up and come back closing on the lows with increased volume.
  • #25,423
  • Apr 21, 2014 12:16pm Apr 21, 2014 12:16pm
Quoting pres78
{quote}.... I may at some point put together a response but I want to see if anyone else offers up their views on this. ...

I was going to say I want to hear from Pres78, KinsaleForex and SimpleDev, but only after at least 3 other responses. But I was afraid I would never get to you guys if I did that.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #25,424
  • Apr 21, 2014 1:19pm Apr 21, 2014 1:19pm
Quoting HiddenGap
{quote} I was going to say I want to hear from Pres78, KinsaleForex and SimpleDev, but only after at least 3 other responses. But I was afraid I would never get to you guys if I did that.
Speaking of Kinsale I think a Happy Birthday is in order. What are you now Liam a measly 26? I am so old now I can't remember what 26 even felt like. I hope you had / have (depending on when you read this) a great one my friend!
Today's zone = Tomorrow's opportunity!
  • #25,425
  • Apr 21, 2014 1:53pm Apr 21, 2014 1:53pm
Entry on bottom line of SD zone (after K happened) or close of L (after M happened)
There is a winner and a loser, nothing in between.
  • #25,426
  • Apr 21, 2014 6:07pm Apr 21, 2014 6:07pm
Quoting HiddenGap
This really isn't a quiz, so much as a query. You've already established that there is a Supply/Demand Delta Zone in this area of the cart using some rule-based criteria. You don't have to concern yourself with predictions to impress the nameless and faceless many on the internet. You are reactive, not predictive in mind-set. It's all about seeing what you want to see, where you want to see it. So price moves into the where. The question becomes, what do you want to see? Do you see a short entry signal? Is it a single interval or a series of intervals...
Hello hiddengap.good to see you around again.................
Yes i see the possibility of a short entry signal.......,i prefer seeing my entry on a series of interval.........
A) High volume up bar(wide spread)..effort to rise,
Jtheir could be selling into this bar so we proceed with caution.....
B) Failed test.......that is to test if their are sellers and they found them..........
c) No demand upthrust....................the big boys are not interested in higher price.......
D) Looks like a shakeout.only that weakness is right above it......so we should be careful has the big boys have not had their full yet...so they are supporting price..............
E) Low volume up move (no demand)
F) Increased volume on down move..........
G) No demand again......................
H) Increase volume on down move again...........
I) High volume up bar again :- effort to rise...............
J) High volume upthrust..............
k) Another upthrust with higher volume......
L) Confirmation of upthrust
M) No demand again...
N) Confirmation of supply...
Entry on second candle after N................
  • #25,427
  • Apr 22, 2014 8:36am Apr 22, 2014 8:36am
Happy Ester to all of VSA friends.

Here is my view.

A: Effort to rise
B: It shows that there was selling during A, but buyers were active and managed to close near highs.
C: this is low volume upthrust. Low might depend on there was not huge buy ordes at this level.
D: Confirmation of upthrust.
E: ND bar
F: confirmation of ND bar. Enter short. Stop loss 5 pips above C
G: NO Buying pressure
H: Sellers have control
I: No Buying pressure again.
J: Seller and buyers are fighting. Since it is a down bar sellers have control. Stop loss is hit here. I wait for a ND bar to re-enter a short.
K: Intensive selling.
L: Demand enters again here
M: No buying pressure. I wait a confirmation bar that closes lower than this bar.
N: NS bar but it is a hawai no supply bar.I think such bars are created because SM does not see any buyers here. So they do not increse the selling pressure since there is not enough demand. So price fluctuates for a while.
I would enter my second short entry on the close of next bar to N. Stop loss at 5 pips over K.


Quoting HiddenGap
This really isn't a quiz, so much as a query. You've already established that there is a Supply/Demand Delta Zone in this area of the cart using some rule-based criteria. You don't have to concern yourself with predictions to impress the nameless and faceless many on the internet. You are reactive, not predictive in mind-set. It's all about seeing what you want to see, where you want to see it. So price moves into the where. The question becomes, what do you want to see? Do you see a short entry signal? Is it a single interval or a series of intervals...
  • #25,428
  • Apr 22, 2014 12:14pm Apr 22, 2014 12:14pm
Quoting pres78
{quote} Speaking of Kinsale I think a Happy Birthday is in order. What are you now Liam a measly 26? I am so old now I can't remember what 26 even felt like. I hope you had / have (depending on when you read this) a great one my friend!
Well this was nice to log on and see! Thanks mate! Spent the weekend away in the UK and had a good day yesterday back home for my bday. 26 years young although my gf keeps reminding me i'm closer to 30 than 20 now

Awesome to see some posts from you and HG. I'll definitely post a response to that chart once i'm home after work. Have a few things to say from a quick glance at it.

@HiddenGap, Can we please make this "quiz" a weekly thing? I learn so much from it and i'm sure others benefit as well.
  • #25,429
  • Apr 22, 2014 12:40pm Apr 22, 2014 12:40pm
Quoting KinsaleForex
{quote} Well this was nice to log on and see! Thanks mate! Spent the weekend away in the UK and had a good day yesterday back home for my bday. 26 years young although my gf keeps reminding me i'm closer to 30 than 20 now Awesome to see some posts from you and HG. I'll definitely post a response to that chart once i'm home after work. Have a few things to say from a quick glance at it. @HiddenGap, Can we please make this "quiz" a weekly thing? I learn so much from it and i'm sure others benefit as well.
great suggestion especially for us.
Think Twice Low Volume is Key to Success
  • #25,430
  • Apr 22, 2014 5:17pm Apr 22, 2014 5:17pm
@HiddenGap, Can we please make this "quiz" a weekly thing? I learn so much from it and i'm sure others benefit as well.[/quote]

Happy birthday liam.if i am correct.....and hiddengap.....lets have more of stuffs like this........................
  • #25,431
  • Apr 22, 2014 6:43pm Apr 22, 2014 6:43pm
Quoting HiddenGap
This really isn't a quiz, so much as a query. You've already established that there is a Supply/Demand Delta Zone in this area of the cart using some rule-based criteria.
HG,

OK first off you say this is not a quiz but rather a query. That seems to have been lost on some of the posters. While they did on many cases provide entry locations I am not sure your intention was for the A-M bars to be each named (you know how much I love naming all the bars in your quizzes ). Many of those bars are just bars after all at the end of the day. While ALL are part of the PA, not all are important.

For this query I started by removing my VZA zones to play on the same field as you for this series of questions. I then attempted to apply the same zone you had but couldn't quite get it the same. I assume it is a 15 minute zone? I applied a zone from a April 17th bar which I believe is a S/D delta zone complete with hidden gap. I actually like my zone better as the lower portion gives added reactions both on that last LL seen on your chart and also again today.

Quoting HiddenGap
The question becomes, what do you want to see? Do you see a short entry signal? Is it a single interval or a series of intervals that create a pattern?
For me at a supply zone I want to see 2 things;

  1. Signs of sellings
  2. Lack of buying

Do I see short entries? Yes I do I see one within the A-M bars you marked and another possible one after so 2 total on April 21st (more on this later).

For me it is always a series because I want to see a combination of selling and lack of buying. One without the other and you tend to get stuck in slow moving sideways ranging trades.

Quoting HiddenGap
But we should all agree that a wide spread up interval on ultra high volume into the Zone, should get our attention. Some would say, that is the start of the distribution phase.
I agree completely. However for VSA alone the bar did close on the high so while this could represent effort to rise into supply it could still end up being absorption of the supply for higher prices so while this bar gives us a clue that SM are becoming active we still do not know enough to say which side they are active on (I know you know this HG this statement was more for the benefit of others).

So when would I personally get short? After bar M and no sooner. Why? Because that is the first time we are seeing true lack of demand into some place that matters after sellers made themselves more apparent. Bar A that you said to consider the start point is the last 15 minute bar before LO. LO is famous for the opening fakes and they didn't disappoint on this day as they took price through a mini distribution / mark-up phase before the sellers took over. Now this was a holiday Monday for a few EUR and the GBP banks so while sellers did move price is was still very lackluster but the principles are the same whether they are seen on a 50 pip day or a 100 pip day. Price moved down to NYO at which price was marked back up to that zone and once again sellers won this war with a nice drop off to the low for the day.

As you can see on my chart as noted above we also see sellers at this same zone today despite the hidden gap being filled on Monday... the zone was never fully breached to the other side.

Now my chart as I said bar M was my entry signal. The bar marked with the blue arrow and blue zone was now the highest volume for me on the day. After this bar prints we see a second mark-up where more sellers are found and price now closes on it's low and below the highest volume for the day. A third down bar and then that bar M. While this is not a true ND it is good enough for me as it shows a complete lack of buying interest and hits and close below that UHV blue zone... perfect! Classic ND entry at the low as price leaves the zone.

Next entry for me would be on the close of that last upbar (4th upbar in the retrace to the zone). What I love about this bar is we now have a new even higher volume bar for the day which touches the low of bar M and closes well off it's high. Now how on all that volume could they not even close inside that ND bar? More sellers at a zone where we know sellers were previously active. I wont get into how I would enter on that bar as it's not pure VSA.

Why would I not have considered that first ND / NBP bar (bar E)? Simple price has not yet closed below the low of bar A which at the time bar E prints was the highest volume bar. In fact we had taken out the high and had just seen a wide range low volume mark down bar so if we were not at a supply zone one might actually be thinking longs, either was it is a Hawaiian polar bear. Bar G is also no good as this bar actually forms a 2BR up and out of the bar A so despite no buying seen we are now is a no short area.

Anyway... those are my simple thoughts and take them for just that. It's great to see some participation and activity here again.

OK HG... onto the next one!

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Today's zone = Tomorrow's opportunity!
  • #25,432
  • Apr 22, 2014 8:12pm Apr 22, 2014 8:12pm
Quoting HiddenGap
{quote} I was going to say I want to hear from Pres78, KinsaleForex and SimpleDev, but only after at least 3 other responses. But I was afraid I would never get to you guys if I did that.
Liam was kind enough to let me know that there was some posting going on! My best wishes for him this year.

HiddenGap its good to see your posts again friend.

I see your 15m and raise you a 4h.

It would seem that is if April 15-17th contained selling to move price down for the past few days. As for an entry, I will have to pass on the shorts. My thinking is that with the massive volume on April 3rd and 4th in the background I would not want to be caught short once the buying resumes.

Ok going back into posting retirement.
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  • #25,433
  • Apr 23, 2014 3:50am Apr 23, 2014 3:50am
Quoting Dr.Phoenix
{quote} Hi, HiddenGap, I assume the market is completely bearish - the 1H bars are higher, the volumes are lower. It is difficult for prices to overcome the yellow S/D zone - for this point of view look at the picture of the EURUSD monthly chart. As you can see we abut to the downtrend line. Of course we can go higher but it is rather difficult to do - I personally think it is hardly possible (...interesting enough then). On the other hand, the blue S/D Delta zone can give us a bounch of prices for the purposes to close the upper violet 3835-3845...
GOT IT !The upper violet 3835-3845 hidden gap zone closed.
Hunting High and Low
  • #25,434
  • Edited 6:40am Apr 23, 2014 6:27am | Edited 6:40am
Quoting HiddenGap
This really isn't a quiz, so much as a query.
For the most part, people have named the bars so I won't rehash that. I'm just going to give my take on what I personally see and what i'd look for in this area. People will also get a look into what i'm doing with small time frames and PnF charts. Just to try and confuse people further!

The first chart is similar to the one pres has posted in that I go back and grab some zones from the past. Everyone knows I like to bastardise his strategies so here goes. Also, I still can't properly get my head around candlestick charts, so here it is in bar form.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: 23-04-2014_EU_HG15min.png Size: 41 KB


I've highlighted three zones on the 15min chart; green, orange and yellow. I hope you're not colour blind. The green and yellow zones are from Thursday 17th. The action for Good Friday was negligible so I haven't included any zones from this day.

The green and orange zones act as areas to watch for a trade set up. The action on Friday got nowhere near these zones so further to the conversation in this thread the other day, I still view these as "active" zones. We came back up to the low of the orange zone on Monday morning and we saw a significant increase in volume. Giving us the yellow zone. Yes, it doesn't exactly stand out in the grand scheme of the whole chart but what's important is that it's the highest volume in over a day. This has to be relevant. We can see that it was. Side note - I've put the yellow zone across two bars as the volume was pretty much identical over the two bars.

As far as entries are concerned, i've somewhat moved away from "classic" VSA of late and am looking towards my point and figure charts. Having said this, the conversation over the past couple of days has me interested in looking at VSA entries once again. I realised and mentioned in one of my previous posts that I was getting too bogged down in precise entries. Anyway, I digress. If HG doesn't mind, i'll throw up a PnF chart showing what would have been a nice entry on the PnF chart.

I'm using PnF in two forms. Long term 1hr and 4hr charts looking for projected price targets and more recently (SimpleDev can take the credit for this) 3min charts for entries, based around 15min volume zones. More of a scalping strategy.

So here's a 3min 1x3 PnF chart. (1x3 means 1 pip box size with a 3 box reversal amount.)

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: 23-04-2014_EU_HG3minPnF.png Size: 85 KB


On the left we have the 15min chart around the area HG highlighted, included is the yellow zone from earlier. On the right is the PnF chart with the zones carried over. In an ideal world we'd have a PnF formation around the low of the yellow zone or after the reaction that saw pres find his second entry, but it wasn't to be.

From left to right on the PnF chart. I'll come back to "A." in a minute.

B is a reference point, this is the high of pres' second entry bar and at C we can see the low of the increase in volume from the 15min chart on the left. I wanted to highlight this bar as SimpleDev pointed it out to me. This could easily have been mistaken for some strength and a reversal. It's important to look at the bars that follow. The next bar is up on incredibly low volume and the following bars have weak closes.

D on the PnF chart is a "long signal" but the MA and series of bars I just explained keep me out of entering here. E is the entry. I call this a "staggered triple bottom". It is similar in style to the formation at A in that it is still a triple bottom. I take them to mean the same thing. It also acts as a break out of the low of the high volume that we saw at C on the 15min chart.

Hope people made it this far! I know the PnF charts can be a bit confusing, feel free to ask me any qs but I try to keep the PnF charts to a minimum as this is a VSA thread. I just thought it might be interesting to answer this q.

That's me done.
  • #25,435
  • Edited 12:44pm Apr 23, 2014 12:21pm | Edited 12:44pm
I am sitting in a meeting bored out of my mind watching the charts on my IPhone when I had a deep series of thoughts...

As we who only trade FX are always dealing with the naysayers whom feel the need to tell us that there is no volume in FX. We don't have volume we have an indicator that is called volume but in actuality it does not measure volume it measures the # of ticks (or price changes) we have in any given bar over any given period. We don't have true volume information as we don't see the orders (a few FX brokers now offer level 2 market depth where we can see order volumes sitting at certain prices) both pending and filled we only see ticks. No matter how you slice it high tick count = high activity = buying and selling going on in larger than normal sums...

Perhaps for FX we should go with one of 3 new name choices in lieu of the VSA nomenclature;

TSA - Tick Spread Analysis
ASA - Activity Spread Analysis
ASS - Activity Spread Synopsis

The last one is my favorite.

My new business card will look like;

Jason AKA pres78
Professional ASS Trader
www . tradethatass . com
1.800.TRA.DEASS

Holy Shit I am bored...
Today's zone = Tomorrow's opportunity!
  • #25,436
  • Apr 23, 2014 12:46pm Apr 23, 2014 12:46pm
Quoting pres78
I am sitting in a meeting bored out of my mind watching the charts on my IPhone when I had a deep series of thoughts... As we who only trade FX are always dealing with the naysayers whom feel the need to tell us that there is no volume in FX. We don't have volume we have an indicator that is called volume but in actuality it does not measure volume it measures the # of ticks (or price changes) we have in any given bar over any given period. We don't have true volume information as we don't see the orders (a few FX brokers now offer level 2 market...

The volume question you are thinking about is for us not to mention. This question was many times discussed at different forums and traders' communities. I was myself searching for the trurh about it years ago. Today I know what the "volumes" at FX and the real volumes from CME, for example, are alike at almost 90%. That is well enough for us to take right desicions, trading FX. So, there is no need thinking of this puzzle. Anyway, If you need for additional clarification upon this subject, contact Infinitus in the FF. He know about it much more.
Hunting High and Low
  • #25,437
  • Apr 23, 2014 1:17pm Apr 23, 2014 1:17pm
Quoting Dr.Phoenix
{quote} The volume question you are thinking about is for us not to mention. This question was many times discussed at different forums and traders' communities.I was myself searching for the trurh about it years ago. Today I know what the "volumes" at FX and the real volumes from CME, for example, are alike at almost 90%. That is well enough for us to take right desicions, trading FX. So, there is no need thinking of this puzzle. Anyway, If you need for additional clarification upon this subject, contact Infinitus in the FF. He know about it much....
Not asking any questions in my post...

I am good and I don't need any further clarification on this matter. I have been here on this thread through these questions / comments from outsiders for a few years now. I am well aware of what the volume in FX is showing and how to trade it.

I do however agree with your comments that the FX volumes for the most part are sufficient and comparible to CME for example.

My post was just a bored afternoon joke that was obviously lost.
Today's zone = Tomorrow's opportunity!
  • #25,438
  • Apr 23, 2014 2:33pm Apr 23, 2014 2:33pm
Quoting pres78
Perhaps for FX we should go with one of 3 new name choices in lieu of the VSA nomenclature;
TSA - Tick Spread Analysis
ASA - Activity Spread Analysis
ASS - Activity Spread Synopsis

The last one is my favorite. My new business card will look like;

Jason AKA pres78
Professional ASS Trader
www . tradethatass . com
1.800.TRA.DEASS

Holy Shit I am bored...
Well that went down like a lead balloon ​

The domain is available though, better snap that up!
  • #25,439
  • Apr 23, 2014 4:59pm Apr 23, 2014 4:59pm
. I assume it is a 15 minute zone? I applied a zone from a April 17th bar which I believe is a S/D delta zone complete with hidden gap.

Thanks for everything pres...........i want to ask what a hidden gap means.............
  • #25,440
  • Apr 23, 2014 5:26pm Apr 23, 2014 5:26pm
Quoting carbonado
. I assume it is a 15 minute zone? I applied a zone from a April 17th bar which I believe is a S/D delta zone complete with hidden gap. Thanks for everything pres...........i want to ask what a hidden gap means.............
My studies in the trading based on WRB's (not related to volume) are limited so I will let HG explain it in more detail so I don't F it up!
Today's zone = Tomorrow's opportunity!
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