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career as a professional FX trader for hedge funds, banks, etc

  • #41
  • Jan 19, 2014 4:30am Jan 19, 2014 4:30am
Quote
why work for a firm rather than trading alone:

1. career and recognition
2. part of community
3. healt benefits
4. professional development
5. access to potential higher capital if successful


Hello BGrigore,

for me the advantages which are expected when trading for a organisation are NOT tied to get a job as a trader.
Let me explain.
Many of the listed advanteges are rather social/psychological things which you can get out of many activites.
Trading is one of them.
I assume that you are a profitable trader, otherwise no organisation would hire a trader.
Also I think you crave the advantages, because you had some kind of career before.
Additionally I guess that at least 80% of traders are motivated by the fact that trading offers tremendous freedom.
Personally I think working for a bank is extremely competetive, can be very stressful and you loose freedom by doing that.
So I want to suggest a occupation which offers a lot of freedom, is compatible with trading and still gives the listed advantages.
For example: jounalist, artist, novelist, IT-consultant, programmer, small hotel.
  • #42
  • Jan 20, 2014 11:21am Jan 20, 2014 11:21am
Here are two good webinars on that topic:

http://www.fxstreet.com/webinars/ses...rket-20130117/
http://www.fxstreet.com/webinars/ses...t-ii-20130124/
  • #43
  • Jan 20, 2014 12:10pm Jan 20, 2014 12:10pm
Quote #1
whereas alone:
1. no other human interaction
2. hard to market your FX skills
3. little evolution opportunities
4. one needs significant capital to be able to make this for a living


Your Q's #1 seem a bit far fetched!

!.Get a lot of forex education.
2.Get an edge!
3.Why trade for someone else??
4.Do you trade for a living?
Daytrader
  • #44
  • Jan 21, 2014 12:03pm Jan 21, 2014 12:03pm
Quoting mahimahi
Quote #1 whereas alone: 1. no other human interaction 2. hard to market your FX skills 3. little evolution opportunities 4. one needs significant capital to be able to make this for a living Your Q's #1 seem a bit far fetched! !.Get a lot of forex education. 2.Get an edge! 3.Why trade for someone else?? 4.Do you trade for a living?
I can't understand what you meant, sorry!
  • #45
  • Jan 25, 2014 9:46am Jan 25, 2014 9:46am
Quoting scooby-doo
There seems to be allot of myths surrounding being a currency trader for large institution. Many of us never went to university. 1. Trade a standard live account for at least 12 months with a range of different currencies. 2. Produce a detailed account/report of your profits and losses. Explain how/why things went wrong or right. 3. Find out the senior trader at a number of financial institutions. 4. Send them your report/findings with account statement. Then ask them about any vacancies on their trading floors. If possible, follow it up with a...

Do you professional FX traders hold positions overnight? Are you guys speculating or hedging?

I am disillusioned about finding a job in trading, especially in the Netherlands. I went to local prop. trading firm Optiver, in Amsterdam, and took the math test. I really like math, and thought I would pass the test. However, me, and the other guys all failed the test! They want the best of the best, in terms of math ability. (real quants, typically with econometrics background, or physics, math majors).

The guy at Optiver Amsterdam told me:

1. We don't want cowboys, no "gordon gecko".
2. We don't take risk.
3. We want the best of the best. (questions on the math test were like 3286 * .0024 =.... and 2*3*4*5*6*8 = .... , etc.)
4. All deals are done with in seconds, they don't ever take positions.

Granted, Optiver, is a HFT option market maker. It's all about algorithmic trading with these guys. However, I wonder, are most FX traders in London really market makers? Are you guys all dealers?

I understand a dealer as someone who doesn't take a position, and just sells and buys stuff quickly, with no exposure, always hedged. As a retail FX trader, I love trading. I love taking positions. But, what Optiver does is 180 degrees different from what we do here, at Forex factory.

Much appreciate your thoughts.
  • #46
  • Edited 5:36pm Jan 25, 2014 5:24pm | Edited 5:36pm
The less I knew about how to make money from trading, the more I wanted to be hired by some bank or prop shop.
In retrospect, I think you can actually gauge how much you don't know by the amount of effort you put into finding a partner or "networking" or a mentor or some trading job.
When you are at this stage what you really want (subconsciously) is to find anybody who will tell you what to do.
Also if you state as credentials any of the stuff that anyone does on FF it is guaranteed you will never be hired.
  • #47
  • Jan 26, 2014 2:34am Jan 26, 2014 2:34am
Quoting iBurger
{quote} Do you professional FX traders hold positions overnight? Are you guys speculating or hedging? I am disillusioned about finding a job in trading, especially in the Netherlands. I went to local prop. trading firm Optiver, in Amsterdam, and took the math test. I really like math, and thought I would pass the test. However, me, and the other guys all failed the test! They want the best of the best, in terms of math ability. (real quants, typically with econometrics background, or physics, math majors). The guy at Optiver Amsterdam told me: 1....
Yes, I used to hold positions overnight, weekly, monthly, quarterly etc. But usually profit was locked in or we used to hedge against overnight borrowing rates and other instruments.

Don't forget we used to have access to pending orders at interbank levels. Not support/resistence indicators people use in retail forex. These are real orders waiting in the market with some very larges contract sizes. Yes, they can be removed as and when but it gives you an idea what supply/demand is waiting around the corner. Also, we ofcourse had realtime access to bloomberg, Thompson, reuters etc. You can get access to these agencies in retail forex but it isn't cheap.

However, forex trading has changed allot since the 1990s. A great deal of it now is automated using systems and routines which they need very good programmes to maintain. Actually, this is one way into a trading floor. Apply for an IT position within the organisation and then show your worth and move departments etc.

The automated systems they use are mainly to identify and reduce risk. Having said that, these days nearly all hedge funds use near fully automated systems which are very complex. But, again, they have access to allot more information than you do when it comes to making decisions. They are never 100% correct all of the time but they are getting very close to it.

No system either automated or manual is going to help if you are holding bull yen positions and a disaster strikes Japan etc. Well, some can actually as they have access to weather system/patterns. But these are early day prototype systems which I know the big 4 are developing.

Scoobs
  • #48
  • Jan 26, 2014 5:58am Jan 26, 2014 5:58am
Hey Scoobs, interesting post thanks for sharing, just wondered if you could elaborate on the big 4 mentioned please? I am really quite inquisitive about these classifications of systems.

Quoting scooby-doo
{quote} Well, some can actually as they have access to weather system/patterns. But these are early day prototype systems which I know the big 4 are developing. Scoobs
Tracking the Specialists.
  • #49
  • Jan 26, 2014 6:23am Jan 26, 2014 6:23am
Quoting Connected
Hey Scoobs, interesting post thanks for sharing, just wondered if you could elaborate on the big 4 mentioned please? I am really quite inquisitive about these classifications of systems. {quote}
There was a collaboration going on with HSBC in shanghai, Barclays, Fidelity and a Swiss hedge fund. Nickname was RAVEN. But you wont get anyone to admit too it. In fact they will all deny knowledge of its existence.

Its fed information from every financial instrument, looks at central bank moves, interest rates, political processes, weather patterns. Basically, you name it and it will look at the information. It will then decide upon short , medium and long term trades/positions. Then it repeats the process in an endless loop, closing existing positions and opening new ones based on predefined risk analysis.

As far as I know it is still being developed. But its not something that retail traders would ever get their hands on. So, don't expect to see it being sold on flee bay for $99.99. The infrastructure and data feeds behind it would cost many $millions and you would need a team of very senior traders, programmers and market analysts to oversee its decision process and up/down time.

The question becomes, how accurate is it. Well, I cant answer that but I imagine it will get close to 90%, which would give you one hell of an edge in the financial world.

Scoobs.
  • #50
  • Jan 26, 2014 7:00am Jan 26, 2014 7:00am
Just take your FF vouchers in to the prop firm manager and say "look man I'm like a 23 V bitch" and when he can't show you any V's back just say "muppet fk" and then he becomes your bitch and you actually now run the prop firm...

Later applicants can just show their red flag, just where it on your suit... They will sweep the ground you walk on because you ARE THAT

Bam.. shh
Howlin' at the Moon on the Roof
  • #51
  • Jan 26, 2014 8:09am Jan 26, 2014 8:09am
See link below

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/computerise...3.html#T5bKyqm
  • #52
  • Jan 26, 2014 8:45am Jan 26, 2014 8:45am
Very interesting development, thanks Scoobs for sharing, researching RAVEN collaboration further the infrastructure plus data sounds immense!

Quoting scooby-doo
{quote} There was a collaboration going on with HSBC in shanghai, Barclays, Fidelity and a Swiss hedge fund. Nickname was RAVEN. But you wont get anyone to admit too it. In fact they will all deny knowledge of its existence. Its fed information from every financial instrument, looks at central bank moves, interest rates, political processes, weather patterns. Basically, you name it and it will look at the information. It will then decide upon short , medium and long term trades/positions. Then it repeats the process in an endless loop, closing existing...
Tracking the Specialists.
  • #53
  • Jan 26, 2014 9:16am Jan 26, 2014 9:16am
And for people who don't know about Interbank....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interba...xchange_market
  • #54
  • Jan 26, 2014 10:39am Jan 26, 2014 10:39am
Quoting Mingary
The less I knew about how to make money from trading, the more I wanted to be hired by some bank or prop shop. In retrospect, I think you can actually gauge how much you don't know by the amount of effort you put into finding a partner or "networking" or a mentor or some trading job.
As good a corollary as may be found on FF.
"If The Fool persists in his Folly he will become wise." - William Blake
  • #55
  • Jan 26, 2014 1:55pm Jan 26, 2014 1:55pm
If you know how to trade on your own you don't need to work for a bank.

IMO and from experience, you got way less pressure working on your own and you can make much more money.

I remember a collegue of mine was too much under pressure, big boss was often on him because he didn't make enough money. Result ? The dude couldn't sleep at night, made nightmare, ended up with a big ulcer....just to get fired a couple weeks later.
And another collegue told me a few of them had to take coke to overcome the pressure....crazy stuff.

And its true, the competition is though there, you definitely got no friends.

Trading for a big bank is a life choice...
COT: The precious data ignored
  • #56
  • Jan 26, 2014 2:07pm Jan 26, 2014 2:07pm
Quoting BGrigore
Hi all, I have the following issue which I have raised before a couple of years back. Basically, there are no jobs for successful FX retail traders, it seems you cannot pursue this line of activity if you would like to do this for a living as part of an institution. I don't know how traders in banks got there and what their exact activities are but I invite you to prove me different. this is the question: can you turn FX trading into a career starting from a retail FX trader. I am telling you, I have written to prop trading firms, brokers and all...

It is usually the other way around BGrigore.

When you don't know how to trade you go work for a bank to learn it.

If you learn you go do it for yourself. If you don't learn you go do seminaries and teach how to trade.
Don't call me. I call you!
  • #57
  • Jan 27, 2014 3:45pm Jan 27, 2014 3:45pm
hi all,

really good insights and information, thanks a lot for the improved perspective on the issue raised.

the subject is ecclectic as there are variate styles of trading - scalping, intra-day, positionyou , etc.

do you guys (gals too) know any prop firms// hedge funds that trade FX but with a longer term perspective - turtle like if you will.

I know about Mulvaney Capital, ACT Currency Partners and Winton Capital that take directional trades. Also Dunn Capital and EMC Capital (former turtles) but it is quite an ermetic universe. I don't think they hire too easily applicants for trading - it seems that it is done mainly automatically by computers while people are tweeking algotihms or developing new ones.

maybe a variant is to apply for internships or entry positions at FX brokers such as FXCM, Gain etc and then figure it out there.

keep in touch everyone!

happy trading,

regards,

Bogdan
  • #58
  • Jan 27, 2014 6:07pm Jan 27, 2014 6:07pm
You will like this video. FX trading internship at BNP Paribas:
Inserted Video


BTW, FXCM doesn't "trade" currency, they only hedge their client exposure.
  • #59
  • Jan 27, 2014 6:37pm Jan 27, 2014 6:37pm
pivot, macd and stochastic ahahah

now i wait the traditional haters losers who love saying that everybody on FF is stupid using indicators,have stupid strategies,blabla and believe traders in bank are all sorts of gods ( because they can"t accept that some guys succeed where they've failed miserably , so pitiable people... )
  • #60
  • Jan 27, 2014 7:48pm Jan 27, 2014 7:48pm
Quoting BGrigore
Hi all, I have the following issue which I have raised before a couple of years back. Basically, there are no jobs for successful FX retail traders, it seems you cannot pursue this line of activity if you would like to do this for a living as part of an institution. I don't know how traders in banks got there and what their exact activities are but I invite you to prove me different. this is the question: can you turn FX trading into a career starting from a retail FX trader. I am telling you, I have written to prop trading firms, brokers and all...
maybe you should read this thread , read post from "Trader888",

good luck to you..
I will be the number one Manager.
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