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career as a professional FX trader for hedge funds, banks, etc

  • #21
  • Jan 16, 2014 10:16am Jan 16, 2014 10:16am
one who profit from the spread, will trade differently from us who profit from price / position differences
you can't just switch from retail to bank trader or the way around.

- don't trust me -
  • #22
  • Jan 16, 2014 10:20am Jan 16, 2014 10:20am
BG I was scouted about 2 years ago and 18 months ago, it seems they find you as opposed to you finding them. Obviously I turned them down, as for trading, like investing, it is better to use other peoples money just incase of failure.

even though I no longer trade, I do help my buddy out by supplying him with daily trading entries which he beefs up and notifies his subscribers
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
  • #23
  • Jan 16, 2014 10:27am Jan 16, 2014 10:27am
Quoting billytt
BG I was scouted about 2 years ago and 18 months ago, it seems they find you as opposed to you finding them. Obviously I turned them down, as for trading, like investing, it is better to use other peoples money just incase of failure. even though I no longer trade, I do help my buddy out by supplying him with daily trading entries which he beefs up and notifies his subscribers

could you please elaborate a little more ?
scouted based on what (performace on brokers contest, trade explorer /myfxbook record..) ?
  • #24
  • Jan 16, 2014 10:47am Jan 16, 2014 10:47am
Well I have not come across any Forex prop trading firms in general. Can anyone suggest good Forex Prop Trading firms hiring remote traders.
  • #25
  • Jan 16, 2014 10:55am Jan 16, 2014 10:55am
Quoting bradu
{quote} could you please elaborate a little more ? scouted based on what (performace on brokers contest, trade explorer /myfxbook record..) ?
Hello, I honestly cannot answer your question. I know these sort of threads are visited by scouts and at the time I was visiting approx. 4 sites, I was also invited to my bank several times by bank manager for sherry and a chat., and no I am not saying the bank had anything to do with it (data protection) or maybe the guy at the car showroom spoke to someone after I bought my wife a car, I cannot answer.
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
  • #26
  • Jan 16, 2014 1:40pm Jan 16, 2014 1:40pm
Ok I know reasonably well how it works in the UK ( the world capital for FX and fixed income, >40%)

So, the normal path
1. go to a top 10/20 uni doing a BSc in something or rather (finance, econ, physics,maths - something remotely relatable)
2.Apply for all the internships/spring weeks/work experiences that the uni offers in conjuction with big banks, if you do the BAT, you need probably at least 550 to get a place (if not much higher)
3. show an interest in Econ/trading etc and you'd probs get somewhere (buy or sell side)
4. do well in the internship etc and you'd be called back for more / offered a low level job at the institution.
5. there aren't many FX traders per bank - maybe 50 in a large bank.
6. standard career bs from there onwards.

Another path is
1. know someone in a bank
2. get work experience etc in said bank (and get trained their way)
3. get a solid degree from decent uni
4. get a job etc etc
5. standard career bs from there

What confuses retail traders, is that they think that if they can trade well with a good track record they could get a job. Wrong. won't happen. too much risk for the bank.

The best they could hope for is a job at a prop firm, but that doesn't pay well and isn't remotely what most would expect - also if you work for a prop house, it almost destroys your CV so there is that.

EDIT: and regarding returns, its not about the level of return, its all about risk/vol/carry adjusted returns.

Also they don't trade on leverage so there is that. So saying 1000+% returns it is completely useless as it isn't comparable.
  • #27
  • Jan 16, 2014 2:12pm Jan 16, 2014 2:12pm
I used to work for one of the five largest banks in the US. I worked in loss prevention and traded part time. Now I trade full time.

Working for a large bank was the worst job I've had. The benefits are not that great.
"A true speculator tries the market small." - Jesse Livermore
  • #28
  • Jan 16, 2014 2:27pm Jan 16, 2014 2:27pm
Quoting JeremyWS
Ok I know reasonably well how it works in the UK ( the world capital for FX and fixed income, >40%) So, the normal path 1. go to a top 10/20 uni doing a BSc in something or rather (finance, econ, physics,maths - something remotely relatable) 2.Apply for all the internships/spring weeks/work experiences that the uni offers in conjuction with big banks, if you do the BAT, you need probably at least 550 to get a place (if not much higher) 3. show an interest in Econ/trading etc and you'd probs get somewhere (buy or sell side) 4. do well in the internship...

also,, being in the right place at the right time and banging the right people
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
  • #29
  • Jan 16, 2014 6:39pm Jan 16, 2014 6:39pm
Quoting JeremyWS
5. standard career bs from there What confuses retail traders, is that they think that if they can trade well with a good track record they could get a job. Wrong. won't happen. too much risk for the bank. The best they could hope for is a job at a prop firm, but that doesn't pay well and isn't remotely what most would expect - also if you work for a prop house, it almost destroys your CV so there is that. EDIT: and regarding returns, its not about the level of return, its all about risk/vol/carry adjusted returns. Also they don't trade on leverage...
I am not sure what proprietary firms and their business models you are familiar with, but I can safely say your statements are completely inaccurate. They pay what you are worth, or put differently you make what you trade in my experience.

You must remember that working/trading for a bank could mean many things. It is not related to trading for a firm. They are typically completely different philosophies. Of course there are many different business models within the firms as well, so one size does not fit all.

This thread is like the market. There are are so many different perspectives, opinions, trading philosophies that it looks confusing, whereas in reality if you zeroed in on an individuals frame of perspective it would make sense. Many of you assume too much and think in terms definiteness.
  • #30
  • Jan 16, 2014 7:42pm Jan 16, 2014 7:42pm
Quoting BGrigore
Hi all, I have the following issue which I have raised before a couple of years back. Basically, there are no jobs for successful FX retail traders, it seems you cannot pursue this line of activity if you would like to do this for a living as part of an institution. I don't know how traders in banks got there and what their exact activities are but I invite you to prove me different. this is the question: can you turn FX trading into a career starting from a retail FX trader. I am telling you, I have written to prop trading firms, brokers and all...
So many urban myths and stupid ideas in your post that i dont even know from where to start:

So let me start to correct you:

Quote
why work for a firm rather than trading alone:
advantages according to you:
1. career and recognition -> who cares about career if you can make a lot of money, its only about the money
2. part of community -> get yourself some trading friends and you can trade simultaneously with them and discuss the problems of trading with them
3. healt benefits -> i dont know what you mean by healt, i assume you meant health, well, then i have to say that trading is stressful enough so doesnt matter where or how you do it its pretty much unhealthy in iteslf
4. professional development -> you learn by experience, and the market is the best teacher not some stupid colleague
5. access to potential higher capital if successful -> with this one i agree
disadvantages according to me:
1) you have a boss
2) you have to go to work ,wake up at early hours, etc...
3) stupid colleagues who will either slow down your learning curve or will block you from getting promoted, too much competition between colleagues
4) you probably get a fixed small salary + some bonus % of the capital you manage, and even banks nowadays pay relatively small salaries, the only way to get rich is to do something magical with the fund you manage and that will either take a long long time or you will get replaced by someone better....


Quote
whereas alone:
disadvantages according to you
1. no other human interaction -> as i said, invite your friends too to trade and then you wont be alone or get youself a good trading partner
2. hard to market your FX skills -> newbie talk, if you are experienced then you can make a living
3. little evolution opportunities -> what opportunity you want, just make a lot of money and that will be fair enough, and also the market is the best teacher, so if you trade much sooner or later you must aquire knowledge and experience about trading
4. one needs significant capital to be able to make this for a living -> bullshit , if you have a good strategy with a real edge and good money management you can make 1 million dollar from 100$ in 2-3 years

advantages according to me
1) i dont know about you but i alone can evolve 100x faster than with any other help, if the help would be professional, like if Buffet or Trumph would personally couch me thats another story, but if a "guru" would or some stupid friend who knows nothing about trading, that would only misguide me and slow me down on my path.So keep this in mind, personal experience is the best learning tool.
2) no boss, you can sleep all day, and be very lazy like i am
3) no annoying colleagues and no competition, just "calm" trading, as calm it can be, just put a nice calming music in the background and trade, nobody will bother you vs. you are on a trading floor where you have to hear phone ringing all day, traders screaming at eachother, and lot of noise which would make you mad sooner or later
4) you risk your own capital, dont have to worry about other guy
5) you keep all profits, you dont have to share that with nobody but the state via taxes
6) freedom & much free time


Now i dare you to honestly compare the 2 options, i think in my own opinion retail trading is just more flexible and advantageous, even if i`d make a billion i would not join a trading floor, i am probably a lone pip hunter, and not sharing the prey with nobody
"There's a sucker born every minute" - P.T. Barnum
  • #31
  • Jan 16, 2014 9:08pm Jan 16, 2014 9:08pm
Quoting Proximus
one needs significant capital to be able to make this for a living -> bullshit , if you have a good strategy with a real edge and good money management you can make 1 million dollar from 100$ in 2-3 years
The painful thing about this statement is that although true in regards to possibility, realistically only a fraction of a percentage of retail traders will ever experience those kinds of gains; and an even smaller percentage of that group will keep them. These forums have seen many come and go also chasing this same ambition. Of the few I know who were largely profitable their first year ($250000 - $400000 USD), by the time their 5th year came around they were back in the red.

I know many threads like to say its not about the $$$, its just about the percentage return. Its true to a degree, but largely, nothing will exploit the weakness in an individual's psychology like $$$.

I know traders who started working in banks or for private funds right out of school -- once they learned the business they stepped out on their own. They did very well, one particular individual sounds like your usual "dream" story on FF. He put aside 50k for trading, opened his first account with just 5k...did 22-27% a month for the first 9 months. But once his book was in the 100-120k region it all went very wrong, I don't know if its because he was working on getting married and bills were increasing but essentially he couldn't handle the fluctuations. Within the next year he had a 60% drawdown...he was out of the business and back in corporate the following year.

Imo it takes time for psychology to adjust to certain $$$ levels. Its not impossible, it just takes time, I personally would not feel comfortable recommending any one to make a living from trading unless they spend 5 yrs trading part time and really putting in the hours and hard work.

The greatest advantage of a trading job in a firm -- you are not trying to trade in order to pay your bills.

I see many young traders take to this business very quickly...but they don't know what its like to be responsible for a family, furnish a mortgage, take care of elderly parents.

haha, back on topic... looking at the market where it is right now, if you really want a job in trading look for high net worth clients in Asia. Hong Kong and Singapore have so many ridiculous private funds, and they tend to higher pretty young, inexperienced traders because they would rather get you cheap early on and teach you what they want you to know. This way you will get at least an income that will sustain you (40-50k pa)...and you will probably get direct training from some professional prop t rader.
  • #32
  • Jan 16, 2014 9:14pm Jan 16, 2014 9:14pm
Quoting JeremyWS
Ok I know reasonably well how it works in the UK ( the world capital for FX and fixed income, >40%) So, the normal path 1. go to a top 10/20 uni doing a BSc in something or rather (finance, econ, physics,maths - something remotely relatable) 2.Apply for all the internships/spring weeks/work experiences that the uni offers in conjuction with big banks, if you do the BAT, you need probably at least 550 to get a place (if not much higher) 3. show an interest in Econ/trading etc and you'd probs get somewhere (buy or sell side) 4. do well in the internship...
Some good points here, however I think the mentality towards prop firms is shifting greatly since 2008. Because of the significant drop in compensation at the banks many if not most have moved out on their own, this with the easy access to financing. Raising $850 to a yard from a single investor has become more and more common here. Especially China money that is channeled through SEA to be serviced in Singapore, Hongkong.

* Forbes would have you believe that Buffets $5x bln puts him at the top of the rich list...but thats nothing compared to the rich that U.S. market has created in the shadows of the PRC.
  • #33
  • Jan 17, 2014 12:47am Jan 17, 2014 12:47am
Quoting pursuit_21
{quote} I know many threads like to say its not about the $$$, its just about the percentage return. Its true to a degree, but largely, nothing will exploit the weakness in an individual's psychology like $$$. I know traders who started working in banks or for private funds right out of school -- once they learned the business they stepped out on their own. They did very well, one particular individual sounds like your usual "dream" story on FF. He put aside 50k for trading, opened his first account with just 5k...did 22-27%...
at last, someone who has reached a level above usual ff.com crap..
i was begining to think that noone here on ff.com reached that level marked above (and by that i dont mean that particular $$ value, but the level where $$ risked on a daily basis is way too much as for an individual is used to handle )
seems stupid and almost imposible to understand that at first look (because most here are trading either demo or penny accounts), but when you reach it and exit your confort zone, things can get very messy
i second that statement 100% and in my opinion this is the hardest part to overcome ( im there 3y now, and still didnt manage to get over it)

on topic, i cant help, i dont have that kind of experience : )
  • #34
  • Jan 17, 2014 1:38am Jan 17, 2014 1:38am
@ Proximus

I respect your opinions but I am bothered by the tone and way you chose your words, you'd better show some courtesy!

they are not urban myths they are aspects observed constantly be me in this area of activity.

it's my opinion based on experience, I don't need you show me the light or smth, you can state your own facts.

so, lighter on the tone okay!
  • #35
  • Jan 17, 2014 3:38am Jan 17, 2014 3:38am
what I'm saying is this:

are there any prop trading firms for which you can trade. in order to be worth it I would say that you need to trade with at least EUR 500,000 capital.

aiming for a 20% return this means a target of EUR 100,000 from which you can maybe get 30% so EUR 30,000 to be worth it (in various parts of the world this is quite a lot in others not enough to cover expenses).

what Im saying is that I am yet to find a prop trading firm to fund traders that say they can trade and have a positive track record.

i mean what does a firm have to lose, they can impose a diminishing of capital based on performance - if you lose 5% your capital is reduced by let's say 50%. if you lose another 3% then you are out - as simple as that. maybe you can offer also a guarantee of some kind and if you can trade your own capital besides the stake funded by the firm this to be further a positive fact.

have you written to prop trading firms mentioned - they don't even bother to respond so that's quite disconcerning.

is it all retail forex just opium for masses?

best,
  • #36
  • Jan 17, 2014 7:08am Jan 17, 2014 7:08am
Quoting BGrigore
what I'm saying is this: are there any prop trading firms for which you can trade. in order to be worth it I would say that you need to trade with at least EUR 500,000 capital.
"Worth it" is relative. You will need to prove yourself over a long period of time to access that amount of money, in my opinion, depending on the model of the firm are they aggressive or are they turtles? Again, not all firms are alike.

Quoting BGrigore
aiming for a 20% return this means a target of EUR 100,000 from which you can maybe get 30% so EUR 30,000 to be worth it (in various parts of the world this is quite a lot in others not enough to cover expenses).
Same answer as above, what is the model you're are looking for. If it is what you have said sure, but in my opinion and my experience your math is backwards. I trade aggressively with low risk. Is that a contradiction? My minimum monthly goals are much, much higher than yours and that's ok, but just be aware that it's you who's putting yourself in a box. There are many more who can trade for smaller gains as a percentage that you speak of than who can trade aggressively, so why would they want you? A firm usually has a complete different model than a hedge fund. It seems to me there is a disconnect with your understanding between a firm, hedge fund, a bank and what they do, how they do it, and what their motives are.

Quoting BGrigore
what Im saying is that I am yet to find a prop trading firm to fund traders that say they can trade and have a positive track record.
I am not sure about this statement. How much have you researched and looked into them? I feel like a broken record, but there are firms of all types. Many take only young aspiring traders to mold them, others start with experienced traders, and yet there others that will take some who don't know what a pip is. Having a positive track record doesn't mean you are a fit for their model. I would imagine though if you have a good track record in trading there is something else wrong if one isn't getting any sort of interest. That is if you are actually seeking a firm.

Quoting BGrigore
i mean what does a firm have to lose, they can impose a diminishing of capital based on performance - if you lose 5% your capital is reduced by let's say 50%. if you lose another 3% then you are out - as simple as that. maybe you can offer also a guarantee of some kind and if you can trade your own capital besides the stake funded by the firm this to be further a positive fact.
I am capped at a maximum allowable loss for the day and a weekly loss limit. As I have stated previously I trade a firms account and my own account under the institutional account. This is the biggest benefit to me as a US citizen. Think about the different possibilities and strategies you can employ by this.

Quoting BGrigore
have you written to prop trading firms mentioned - they don't even bother to respond so that's quite disconcerning.
You are either looking at the wrong firms or something else is amiss. I am not here to pimp a specific firm or firms, but there are many firms and different business models that are out there. You just have to seek the right ones out. Always do your due diligence.
  • #37
  • Jan 17, 2014 1:12pm Jan 17, 2014 1:12pm
The whole point of trading for me is to buy my freedom. That said, there's only one reason that would make me even consider a job trading for someone else other than myself - starting with insufficient capital.
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #38
  • Jan 17, 2014 2:44pm Jan 17, 2014 2:44pm
Breaking into this business is incredibly difficult as I speak from my experience right now being 1 year out of university. I am currently with an equity prop trading firm, looking to move into analyst role at an outside firm. The best way to get into the buy-side FX or macro(HF) is to work for a large bank for at least 1-2 yrs on an FICC desk, and this is a very small, highly selective area in banks.

In order to get into a large bank, you must have gone to a top university, have a strong interest in the area, top grades. If you are just a retail trader with a good track record and no education, it will be almost impossible to break in. Unfortunately no one cares that you are trading a 5 figure account, regardless of your returns. If you are successful in trading your own retail account, then move over to an institutional account with lower spreads and trade for yourself for a living. What beats the freedom of being your own boss?
  • #39
  • Jan 17, 2014 4:02pm Jan 17, 2014 4:02pm
Quoting bradu
{quote} at last, someone who has reached a level above usual ff.com crap.. i was begining to think that noone here on ff.com reached that level marked above (and by that i dont mean that particular $$ value, but the level where $$ risked on a daily basis is way too much as for an individual is used to handle ) seems stupid and almost imposible to understand that at first look (because most here are trading either demo or penny accounts), but when you reach it and exit your confort zone, things can get very messy i second that statement 100% and...
After you reach a certain level you are already out your comfort zone, and either adapt to it or fall for the temptation of undisciplined money management.

It doesnt matter if a trader starts with a small sum, after he multiplies his capital by 100x and can buy a new house or car, he has already stepped up the ladder.

The question is, can he climb upper, or will he fall down?

Quoting BGrigore
@ Proximus I respect your opinions but I am bothered by the tone and way you chose your words, you'd better show some courtesy! they are not urban myths they are aspects observed constantly be me in this area of activity. it's my opinion based on experience, I don't need you show me the light or smth, you can state your own facts. so, lighter on the tone okay!
I didnt meant any offennce, it was only my own observation. The fact that you think corporate or institutional trader is better, thats your opinion, and i very much disagree with it, and i only stated the reasons why.

Quoting vox dei
The whole point of trading for me is to buy my freedom. That said, there's only one reason that would make me even consider a job trading for someone else other than myself - starting with insufficient capital.
Absolutely agree, and retail trading is the best possible job a person can do.It is the most payed job that can ever exist (if you do it well), and you have the most free time (if you manage your trading time propertly)
"There's a sucker born every minute" - P.T. Barnum
  • #40
  • Jan 17, 2014 5:24pm Jan 17, 2014 5:24pm
There seems to be allot of myths surrounding being a currency trader for large institution.

Many of us never went to university.

1. Trade a standard live account for at least 12 months with a range of different currencies.
2. Produce a detailed account/report of your profits and losses. Explain how/why things went wrong or right.
3. Find out the senior trader at a number of financial institutions.
4. Send them your report/findings with account statement. Then ask them about any vacancies on their trading floors. If possible, follow it up with a telephone call.

Now, if things don't go very well and you get knocked back by all of them then by following the above you will........

- Have a better idea about the Forex markets.
- Learn about why your trades went bad or good.
- Get to know who the main players are in your country and beyond.

Just going to university and doing a degree in Economics, maths, IT etc is not going to get you in the door.

Scoobs.
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