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Hard Way, Easy Way

  • #41
  • Dec 9, 2013 11:37pm Dec 9, 2013 11:37pm
Quoting charvo
i don't think eurusd is 2-pip as everyone knows. when i buy 1 position, i lose 2 pip, when i exit that position, i lose another 2 pip. ---- 4 pips!
I'm only scanning this thread to kill a few minutes, but I saw this.

Are you sure? How sure? If you are absolutely sure then maybe re-do the math. How many pips do you lose if you open then close a trade with price going nowhere and with a spread of 2 pips?

Quote
so many ppl in this forum, even those with 10+v, elaborate how essential the mental/psychological aspect is in trading. it is declared a secret yet sacred self-discovery.

It IS essential, but it's the last piece of the puzzle where most people haven't even figured-out how to open the box to get the pieces out yet. But, a part of figuring-out how to open the box and put the pieces together also requires a certain type of psychological make-up, so you can't escape the psychology aspect.

With that said, anyone sitting on FF masturbating over how psyche is the only thing that matters and you can mind-fuck your trades into submission should be hung from a tree.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #42
  • Dec 10, 2013 3:19am Dec 10, 2013 3:19am
Quoting nubcake
{quote} I'm only scanning this thread to kill a few minutes, but I saw this. Are you sure? How sure? If you are absolutely sure then maybe re-do the math. How many pips do you lose if you open then close a trade with price going nowhere and with a spread of 2 pips? {quote} It IS essential, but it's the last piece of the puzzle where most people haven't even figured-out how to open the box to get the pieces out yet. But, a part of figuring-out how to open the box and put the pieces together also requires a certain type of psychological make-up, so...
Nubcake is back
  • #43
  • Dec 10, 2013 5:04am Dec 10, 2013 5:04am
Quoting DailyChart
{quote} Nubcake is back
Even I do stupid things.

But I do try to keep my shit in check, lest I fall down the FF anus... I mean rabbit hole... and start wasting too much time here. Some of the shit that still goes on in this place still amuses me, so what can ya do.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #44
  • Dec 10, 2013 5:10am Dec 10, 2013 5:10am
Quoting nubcake
... and start wasting too much time here. Some of the shit that still goes on in this place still amuses me, so what can ya do.
Slapping retards can be addictive. If you hit 'em just right their head snaps straight back up and asks to be hit again, so what can you do indeed. Feels good, but it doesn't really improve the bottom line.
si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
  • #45
  • Dec 10, 2013 6:11am Dec 10, 2013 6:11am
nubcake was quoting a post that i well remember...... it was more like a series of posts......
//------

spread is detrimental when it's cost exceeds a reasonable % of the trades profit or it contributes an excessive amount to the trades loss...... my definition of reasonable % is roughly less than 5%....

in other words, a 2 pip spread might worry a 10 pip scalper but go without notice to another trader with a 200 pip profit target....

also, fwiw, spread is only paid a single time at the trades closing..... not at the trades opening......h
to trade and code, keep both simple... no call to impress....h
  • #46
  • Dec 10, 2013 6:30am Dec 10, 2013 6:30am
Quoting hayseed
nubcake was quoting a post that i well remember
i was? i didn't mean to. i must just be repeating myself or something.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #47
  • Dec 10, 2013 9:28am Dec 10, 2013 9:28am
Damn, Nub, you got me again, lol. yes, i admit i was wrong.

just many times psychologically i feel i was taken advantage twice on both the entry and the exit. hayseed helps to clarify again.

Psychology is the last puzzle, but i think, to the very very top of the trading world. To be super super profitable, best trader in this world, psychology plays a big role. Just for consistent profitable, i don't really think that it is indispensable. well, anyway, by psychology alone, different ppl have different definition. for a professional golfer to play with a bunch amatuers, he needs no psychology to win the game, if i can use an analogy.

Quoting nubcake
{quote} I'm only scanning this thread to kill a few minutes, but I saw this. Are you sure? How sure? If you are absolutely sure then maybe re-do the math. How many pips do you lose if you open then close a trade with price going nowhere and with a spread of 2 pips? {quote} It IS essential, but it's the last piece of the puzzle where most people haven't even figured-out how to open the box to get the pieces out yet. But, a part of figuring-out how to open the box and put the pieces together also requires a certain type of psychological make-up, so...
  • #48
  • Dec 10, 2013 9:36am Dec 10, 2013 9:36am
Nub, just curious. what have you been up to recently?

what's your idea/picture of your profitable trading? i mean, overall mindset and method; or i'm asking your thought on your successful trading should be, for example, simple vs complicated, automatic vs manual, intraday vs daily....... those things.

btw, have you put away your simulator project?

Quoting nubcake
{quote} Even I do stupid things. But I do try to keep my shit in check, lest I fall down the FF anus... I mean rabbit hole... and start wasting too much time here. Some of the shit that still goes on in this place still amuses me, so what can ya do.
  • #49
  • Dec 10, 2013 9:47am Dec 10, 2013 9:47am
Quoting charvo
Nub, just curious. what have you been up to recently? what's your idea/picture of your profitable trading? i mean, overall mindset and method; or i'm asking your thought on your successful trading should be, for example, simple vs complicated, automatic vs manual, intraday vs daily....... those things. btw, have you put away your simulator project? {quote}
Yeap,I am like to hear his idea also
  • #50
  • Dec 10, 2013 11:02am Dec 10, 2013 11:02am
Quoting hayseed
also, fwiw, spread is only paid a single time at the trades closing..... not at the trades opening......h
h,

I know I'm nitpicking, but why is spread paid at the closing and not the opening? IMO the cost is created because we must buy at the ask price and sell at the bid price; whether one views that as opening or closing is arbitrary. Just asking.

D
  • #51
  • Dec 10, 2013 11:57am Dec 10, 2013 11:57am
Cannot say you predict right, as you said "soon" on 911, but it is not wrong either

Quoting charvo
see this eurjpy monthly, i would not trade mechanically or impartially (long or short) on it. to me, it is apparently going to 138 soon. my assumption/read (probably edge): 138 will be taken. my guess on timing: soon. in other words, more likely 138 first than a retrace to 125. however, it is possible, 129 will be retested before 138. my plan: long bias
  • #52
  • Dec 10, 2013 3:17pm Dec 10, 2013 3:17pm
Quoting charvo
for a professional golfer to play with a bunch amatuers, he needs no psychology to win the game, if i can use an analogy.
Perhaps not. But, no pro golfer would become a pro golfer without having their mind right, instead of playing like Happy Gilmore and flipping their shit every time they hit a bad shot and becoming discouraged after a few games lost. They just keep hitting that ball the best they can each time they swing.

I'll put it like this. For a long time I had been playing poker on my ipod just against the cpu at nights when I couldn't manage to get to sleep. I'd get my ipod and just start playing some rounds. Eventually, after a many sleepless nights, I came first in every tournament in the game. Starting with the initial $50 grubstake I ended-up with billions in the app. But when I first started playing I was being a total cock and not being patient enough and I was busting-out my bankroll over and over and getting nowhere. Once I finally had the shits with it enough to change my play style I stopped being so aggressive and I started being more picky and paying more attention to the hands I wanted to play and how I wanted to play them... and, many hundreds of games later I had finished the game with more money than Trump (I think).

It's just a silly game that I'm sure anyone could beat if they put the time into it like I had, but the point is that as someone who has beaten it I wouldn't have been able to beat it if I had not stopped myself from going on tilt all of the damn time. Being squared in the head and in my game-plan wasn't the only thing that let me beat the whole game. I won because of the way I managed the hands I played and the hands I folded. But going on tilt and not dealing with that aspect WAS the killer of my bankroll many times over until I finally had enough of losing and played a bit more diligently. I kept my focus and payed more attention to if I WAS paying attention or not.

It wasn't the only key to success, but it was definitely the key to failure. And that was just some little iphone game with no actual meaning in this world.

Without being right in the head it's like being a competent driver who is distracted by every little thing and talking on their phone while speeding down the highway. The person knows how to drive, but they need to just get their shit together to do it well and not crash and focus on keeping within the lines and under the speed limit. Someone who doesn't know how to drive won't get anywhere, but again, if they keep their shit together they'll learn faster and become more competent than some wild-eyed white-knuckle learner having an anxiety attack from just backing the car out of the driveway. Being right in the head allows a competent person to exploit their competence, and it allows an incompetent person to become competent in a more timely and efficient manner.

As for what I've been doing? Nothing exciting. Too much PHP and web shit, and not enough beer. I've been lurking the forum a bit lately and nothing ever changes here which is both sad and funny, like a mime being kicked in the groin.

What are my nub'ish views on trading? I don't think automation is going to do a whole lot for most people except make order management easier and quicker and take some of the tediousness out of the process. The market is too noisy and organic to not require some amount of observation and discretion. AFAIC trading shouldn't be as much of a mind-bender as people make it seem. At the end of the day we all want to try and find ourselves a good entry where our stops are safe and our targets are realistic and likely to hit. News events inject some life into the markets, so maybe that'd be an interesting place for people to pay attention.

But, with that said, consolidating relevant information so people can reflect on where and when they might place a position is a bit of a mountain to climb. Most people will never get that far and will be too busy looking for the best MA settings to use because everything else is just too fucking hard. Since I can code I coded my own news indi and sim etc and put my fingers and brain to work in that way to consolidate a lot of data into one place. That was me putting time and effort and years of coding experience into good use in an effort to get a better overview of what might make the market tick. Other people should get out their old bubblejet printer and print hundreds of charts and get a pencil or pen and mark important news events and interesting movements... and then reflect on the data and see if anything sticks. Again, that's too much work for most people and it's easier to just keep searching for the best MA settings and grid EA.

However, I'm just a nub coder. My POV only has meaning and relevance to myself.

Um, yeah sim stuff is on the very back of my priority list. I had done a lot of work on an ambitious project related to it but I hit a bit of a brick wall and had to shelve it due to more pressing tasks taking my attention over the last however many months. The sim itself, as you know, is complete and has been for years, so in that regard there is nothing more to do there.

Shit happens... and then you flush.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #53
  • Dec 10, 2013 3:33pm Dec 10, 2013 3:33pm
ah, yes, your example reminds me of my troubled mind recently.

i often sit in front of my pc for half night, doing forextester simulation trading crap. i can turn the virtual money to 200% or 300% after 1 or 2 virtual years. it usually took me 1 or 2 hours of real world time. then my hands itchy, my ass painful, and i can't help trying crazy manuvers, and blow up everything finally in the game

in real trading, i also did this shit, often, ......
and so i keep asking myself, do i have a self-destruction inclination?

ah, i know what your psychology means now. yeah, i'm working on it now, seems hopeless to me, lol.

Quoting nubcake
{quote} it's like being a competent driver who is distracted by every little thing and talking on their phone while speeding down the highway. The person knows how to drive, but they need to just get their shit together to do it well and not crash and focus on keeping within the lines and under the speed limit. Someone who doesn't know how to drive won't get anywhere, but again, if they keep their shit together they'll learn faster and become more competent than some wild-eyed white-knuckle learner having an anxiety attack from just backing the...
  • #54
  • Dec 10, 2013 3:38pm Dec 10, 2013 3:38pm
Quoting charvo
To be super super profitable, best trader in this world, psychology plays a big role. Just for consistent profitable, i don't really think that it is indispensable.
You can send me to hell or say I don't have a clue, whatever... but you can believe me on this one - it is most unlikely you'll become consistently profitable without mastering psychology. It may actually happen in the only one case - you had an ideal life and not a single psychological issue - I doubt that, so... it IS indispensable!
The single most important factor is having control of your own life.
  • #55
  • Dec 10, 2013 3:46pm Dec 10, 2013 3:46pm
I like this this one - showing exactly the purpose of studying psychology - to use all your potential:
Quoting Mikkk01
It's about fine-tuning your brain so that it's working for you [not sitting aside on its lazy ass or sabotaging you when you don't even know].
The single most important factor is having control of your own life.
  • #56
  • Dec 10, 2013 3:49pm Dec 10, 2013 3:49pm
i must say that i have not thought too much about this 'psychology' really over these few years. looks like that i overlook something. i am not even sure about its complete definition.

over these few years, thru many failures and setbacks i can only say i've adjusted my mindset bit by bit----i believe most good traders have to go thru that. i did give up many stupid concepts, unrealistic wishes, or risky ideas. um, they all part of 'psychology'? if so, yes, the overall mindset is fundamental. there should be a sound one, but i'm still a distance from it ---- optimistic side is that i'm also a distance from where i started, lol.

Quoting Mikkk01
{quote} You can send me to hell or say I don't have a clue, whatever... but you can believe me on this one - it is most unlikely you'll become consistently profitable without mastering psychology. It may actually happen in the only one case - you had an ideal life and not a single psychological issue - I doubt that, so... it IS indispensable!
  • #57
  • Dec 10, 2013 4:11pm Dec 10, 2013 4:11pm
Quoting charvo
i must say that i have not thought too much about this 'psychology' really over these few years. looks like that i overlook something. i am not even sure about its complete definition. over these few years, thru many failures and setbacks i can only say i've adjusted my mindset bit by bit----i believe most good traders have to go thru that. i did give up many stupid concepts, unrealistic wishes, or risky ideas. um, they all part of 'psychology'? if so, yes, the overall mindset is fundamental. there should be a sound one, but i'm still a distance...
Life is a mind-game. You are either playing to win, or you lose. Sometimes you have to hit rock-bottom to be able to start going in the right direction, but otherwise it's always pertinent to try to not self-sabotage... health, relationships, business, whatever. Thinking the right way helps make it easier to act the right way.

Everything has a frame of reference, and if you use the wrong one you'll get the wrong results.

You see failures every single day. You see that fat girl with too much make-up and not enough clothing and you know she goes home every day and eats a bucket of ice cream for dinner while convincing herself that she's pretty just the way she is. Self-sabotage. You see that friend who wastes their time with losers who do nothing but drink and steal, and you know that it's only a matter of time before that friend becomes one of the losers and wastes their life on bullshit. Self-sabotage. You see people spending too much money with credit cards and ignoring the state of their finances, just so they can have pretty new things. Self-sabotage.

You are either adding to the problem, or to the solution.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #58
  • Edited 6:50pm Dec 10, 2013 4:14pm | Edited 6:50pm
Quoting charvo
i must say that i have not thought too much about this 'psychology' really over these few years. looks like that i overlook something.i am not even sure about its complete definition.
Too much is never good, though, I guess you meant just 'didn't think much'. If you have some issues that bother you - time to get rid of them! And even if not - you should definitely put in some effort considering you're not sure about the definition [btw, my definition is in that quote]. Start now - it's never too late!
Quoting charvo
over these few years, thru many failures and setbacks i can only say i've adjusted my mindset bit by bit----i believe most good traders have to go thru that. i did give up many stupid concepts, unrealistic wishes, or risky ideas. um, they all part of 'psychology'? if so, yes, the overall mindset is fundamental. there should be a sound one, but i'm still a distance from it ---- optimistic side is that i'm also a distance from where i started, lol. {quote}
Yep, they are. BUT what I found out is: some psychological issues may degenerate into a habit - that's what most likely happened as you never delved deep into the matter. What that means is [I'll give a simple example - it may be much more complex, though]: fact that you've got a loss doesn't bother you as you got used to getting them periodically. It's not bad but it's preferable to know why and to be in control...
So, you'd better devote some time for that to really get the understanding about why you do stuff so that you can do what you really want. It won't get worse anyway!
The single most important factor is having control of your own life.
  • #59
  • Dec 10, 2013 4:16pm Dec 10, 2013 4:16pm
Quoting nubcake
{quote} Life is a mind-game. You are either playing to win, or you lose. Sometimes you have to hit rock-bottom to be able to start going in the right direction, but otherwise it's always pertinent to try to not self-sabotage... health, relationships, business, whatever. Thinking the right way helps make it easier to act the right way. Everything has a frame of reference, and if you use the wrong one you'll get the wrong results. You see failures every single day. You see that fat girl with too much make-up and not enough clothing and you know she...
Oh, you bet, nubs, YOU BET!!!
The single most important factor is having control of your own life.
  • #60
  • Dec 10, 2013 4:34pm Dec 10, 2013 4:34pm
Nub, and Mik, I'm well reminded today. Thanks.
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