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Show Trade Explorer, why Yes or why Not...

  • #1
  • First Post: Nov 18, 2013 2:29pm Nov 18, 2013 2:29pm
Hi,
Why are some gurus here at ff are against showing proven results? especially the ones who own threads with all kind of claims of success, teaching ability or whatever etc,.
Overall we can discuss, why yes and why not to "full visual trade explorer"? does it express harm or not, to ones learning process from a OP and else...
most things in life has a benchmark but yet when it comes to trading and ff it seems this don't apply, even though when systems, strategies, methods, styles, techniques and etc are laid out but hesitant to show real results behind it for the sake of clean process to say the least.

I know it's a touchy subject amongst ff users where it has been talked about in the past in many threads.. but this is a specific one about it, so it's a chance to get it all out from both side and see what we get out of it, although it seems like a never ending subject to discuss and i can predict fire works in the making however we would like a clean, profound and to the point arguments try to bring out solid explanations to support your take.

Anyhow, the floor is yours..
  • #2
  • Edited 2:44pm Nov 18, 2013 2:31pm | Edited 2:44pm
I'll give my detail take on it too, but for now in the nutshell, I am on the YES side .
  • #3
  • Nov 18, 2013 3:28pm Nov 18, 2013 3:28pm
I think you know the answer, isn't it?

I don't want to batch this place but I am afraid that at least 90% of resources here is just BS. It is pretty interesting to see how people without any knowledge, background, track record, proof of any kind manage to get some form of respect, even to the point to be called gurus sometimes...

My take is that those traders who claim to be profitable but are not, find comfort and self-esteem by 'teaching' and being followed by other unprofitable traders. I know it sound sad, but I really think it is the truth. That is the danger with a forum as open as FF, where no due diligence is performed on 'educators'.

Though it remains those 10% that you need to be fortunate enough to come across, and that most likely will find no issue to share a track record or any other reliable proof.

My advice? If someone can't prove himself, just pass him, whatever the excuse!
Enter Signature
  • #4
  • Nov 18, 2013 3:28pm Nov 18, 2013 3:28pm
Quoting Provolone
Hi, Why are some gurus here at ff are against showing proven results? especially the ones who own threads with all kind of claims of success, teaching ability or whatever etc,. Overall we can discuss, why yes and why not to "full visual trade explorer"? does it express harm or not, to ones learning process from a OP and else... most things in life has a benchmark but yet when it comes to trading and ff it seems this don't apply, even though when systems, strategies, methods, styles, techniques and etc are laid out but hesitant to show real results...
1% winners. 99% percent of threads come from people who lie to themselves. well what if i lost money? i did have a 3 months profit right? i'm sure i will be a huge succes in the future. in the mean time listen to me and follow me. if you give me vouchers i will trust myself more so that i could make myself invest again.
  • #5
  • Nov 18, 2013 3:39pm Nov 18, 2013 3:39pm
Quoting RPropShop
I My advice? If someone can't prove himself, just pass him, whatever the excuse!
nice gains. i heard that there are less then 300 people in the us who can invest fundamentally.
in my estimation there are 1 mil accounts and 10000 people who made it long term in forex.

but your advice could not be good. why would a success teach others for free?
  • #6
  • Nov 18, 2013 3:44pm Nov 18, 2013 3:44pm
Quoting RPropShop
I think you know the answer, isn't it? I don't want to batch this place but I am afraid that at least 90% of resources here is just BS. It is pretty interesting to see how people without any knowledge, background, track record, proof of any kind manage to get some form of respect, even to the point to be called gurus sometimes... My take is that those traders who claim to be profitable but are not, find comfort and self-esteem by 'teaching' and being followed by other unprofitable traders. I know it sound sad, but I really think it is the truth....
So your saying to be generous 9 out of 10 gurus here are losers and therefor afraid to show results?
  • #7
  • Nov 18, 2013 5:54pm Nov 18, 2013 5:54pm
The only case where a trader would have to prove that he is (or his system is) profitable, is for commercial purpose. If nothing is to be sold, nothing has to be proved.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #8
  • Nov 18, 2013 6:29pm Nov 18, 2013 6:29pm
Quoting FerruFx
The only case where a trader would have to prove that he is (or his system is) profitable, is for commercial purpose. If nothing is to be sold, nothing has to be proved.

This. ^

OP take that quote, blow it up to size 60 font, print it, and put it over your trading desk. If you want to try somebody's system, then do so. But if they are not asking you for any money, they have no obligation to give you any proof.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #9
  • Nov 18, 2013 6:32pm Nov 18, 2013 6:32pm
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} If you want to try somebody's system, then do so. But if they are not asking you for any money, they have no obligation to give you any proof.
That was exactly my point.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #10
  • Nov 18, 2013 6:47pm Nov 18, 2013 6:47pm
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} This. ^ OP take that quote, blow it up to size 60 font, print it, and put it over your trading desk. If you want to try somebody's system, then do so. But if they are not asking you for any money, they have no obligation to give you any proof.
I agree with you and FerruFx.

Lets have a quick look at this....and I have made this exact point before. There are many, many systems available on FF. Now the system I use is 100% indicator based. No doubt there are some excellent traders around who use candles.s/r lines, channels, doji's and other such stuff. I cannot trade like that, and those people in all likelihood cannot trade as I do.

Does that mean that my system is rubbish?

Does it mean that their system is rubbish?

No, all it means is that my way of trading will not suit all people....neither will theirs.

Now lets say that a candlestick s/r trader has his TE displayed and shows great profit. Does that mean that I should follow that trader? If I do, I will probably fail because that is not how I trade. So his system that the TE *proves* is profitable, will NOT be profitable to me.

So who is to blame?......the candlestick s/r trader? Can't be because his TE says otherwise.

Me? How can I be to blame....I am just trying to follow the system in the belief that my results *must* be similar to the systems displayed TE.

I'll tell you where the blame lies.....it is the TE that is to blame, because it is having the effect of convincing the prospective trader that if he follows this system, his results will mirror the results on the TE....and we have already seen one reason why this will not be so. I could go about the differing time zones, account balance, personality of the prospective trader etc etc etc....but hopefully the point is made.

Now get this: A Trade Explorer proves only 1 thing.....that the owner of the TE can trade his system. That's all it proves......nothing else.

If anyone thinks that if a system shows a profitable TE then it *must* be a good system and if you follow it you too will be just as profitable, then they are dreaming.

In my opinion, Trade Explorers are dangerous and give false expectations to the masses.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #11
  • Nov 18, 2013 6:52pm Nov 18, 2013 6:52pm
Quoting realjumper
{quote} A Trade Explorer proves only 1 thing.....that the owner of the TE can trade his system. That's all it proves......nothing else.

Trade Explorers are dangerous and give false expectations to the masses.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #12
  • Nov 18, 2013 7:54pm Nov 18, 2013 7:54pm
Quoting Provolone
{quote} So your saying to be generous 9 out of 10 gurus here are losers and therefor afraid to show results?
That's just dick measuring....like, if you don't have a TE up you can't be a successful trader??? Oh wait, no, a "real trader" even better!

IMHO Dudes who are comparing trade explorers have deluded themselves into thinking that there is an infallible system out there that will get them rich quick.

Personally I come to this RETAIL trading forum to get information from _any_ source (even unreliable ones) that I can piece together into a framework for my own trading development. I don't care if another member even places trades, let alone has an explorer up as long they are willing to share their knowledge with me.

So thanks for the perspective, but I think FerruFx had the last word on the subject of your original post. Read post#7 again
  • #13
  • Nov 19, 2013 12:13am Nov 19, 2013 12:13am
Quoting realjumper
{quote} I agree with you and FerruFx. Lets have a quick look at this....and I have made this exact point before. There are many, many systems available on FF. Now the system I use is 100% indicator based. No doubt there are some excellent traders around who use candles.s/r lines, channels, doji's and other such stuff. I cannot trade like that, and those people in all likelihood cannot trade as I do. Does that mean that my system is rubbish? Does it mean that their system is rubbish? No, all it means is that my way of trading will not suit all people....neither...

FF needs a "like" button. Oh well. To the OP, do you get it?
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #14
  • Nov 19, 2013 1:22am Nov 19, 2013 1:22am
Quoting FerruFx
The only case where a trader would have to prove that he is (or his system is) profitable, is for commercial purpose. If nothing is to be sold, nothing has to be proved.
sure no one is under any obligations but we are talking about the ones who are in commercial straight out of the gate, and not the ones who are genuinely trying to help out without anything in return (still hard to distinguish). However we all damn sure know about the many here who sneak their way in to gain attraction at first and then to punched in afterwards by the use of mass where along the way talk and claim about their greatness and their systems etc,.. so to weed out those kind from the beginning and be straight forward with it, TE could be only useful and not harmful.. something to think about.
  • #15
  • Nov 19, 2013 1:27am Nov 19, 2013 1:27am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} FF needs a "like" button. Oh well. To the OP, do you get it?
Its not so much about me getting it but rather its a open conversation thread where everyone has a chance to be heard... tone it down brother
  • #16
  • Edited 1:47am Nov 19, 2013 1:37am | Edited 1:47am
Quoting realjumper
{quote} I agree with you and FerruFx. Lets have a quick look at this....and I have made this exact point before. There are many, many systems available on FF. Now the system I use is 100% indicator based. No doubt there are some excellent traders around who use candles.s/r lines, channels, doji's and other such stuff. I cannot trade like that, and those people in all likelihood cannot trade as I do. Does that mean that my system is rubbish? Does it mean that their system is rubbish? No, all it means is that my way of trading will not suit all people....neither...
That would be true if your offerings are 100% mechanical and absolutely with no use of discretion. we all know that there is no existent of a 100% mechanical consistent profitable system, if there was as such me and you would not been here and no market would have be around. but this could lead to a different conversation and topic as to system or trader makes one successful or combo etc,
my point is even a very mechanical systems needs discretion at one point or another.. we often see op of such threads takes entry fully based on system rules then very same situation he would not and same with exits which is very hard to be fully systematic on.
I think if thats the case (100% mechanical system).. then why no EA.. and then it would prove your point that x y z is laid out and if you follow it it works and there is no need of anything else.
  • #17
  • Nov 19, 2013 1:42am Nov 19, 2013 1:42am
Quoting Provolone
{quote} That would be true if your offerings are 100% mechanical and absolutely with no use of discretion. we all no that there is no existent of a 100% mechanical consistent profitable system, if there was as such me and you would not be here and no market would have be around. but this could lead to a different conversation and topic as to system or trader makes one successful or combo etc, my point is even a very mechanical systems needs discretion at one point or another.. we often see op of such threads takes entry fully based on system rules...
It's true that there are no 100% mechanical systems, but that has nothing to do with the topic.

You asked "does it express harm or not, to ones learning process", and I have demonstrated that it most certainly can harm one learning process
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #18
  • Nov 19, 2013 1:55am Nov 19, 2013 1:55am
Quoting realjumper
{quote} It's true that there are no 100% mechanical systems, but that has nothing to do with the topic. You asked "does it express harm or not, to ones learning process", and I have demonstrated that it most certainly can harm one learning process
and i pointed out the flaws on your demonstration where if the offering is not fully mechanical then its served better with real time action (its not for the purpose of proof) without one it would do harm to ones learning by creating confusion verses if there is a TE attached he/she could see the foot print at least and make due diligent study.. if there is no actual foot print of that magical audible or discretion by the OP, then prospects is put off and confidence is killed with doubts and all sort of things.
  • #19
  • Nov 19, 2013 2:00am Nov 19, 2013 2:00am
Quoting Provolone
{quote} and i pointed out the flaws on your demonstration where if the offering is not fully mechanical then its served better with real time action (its not for the purpose of proof) would do harm to ones learning by creating confusion to the prospect as to if there is a TE attached he/she could see the foot print at least and make due diligent study.. if there is no actual foot print of that magical audible or discretion by the OP, then prospects is put off and confidence is killed with doubts and all sort of things.

We have already agreed that there is no 100% mechanical system. Therefore, by definition every system has a degree of discretion attached to it. Therefore a TE is completely useless because, as I said, it show ONLY that the TE owner can be profitable with the system.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #20
  • Nov 19, 2013 2:01am Nov 19, 2013 2:01am
Quoting Provolone
{quote} Its not so much about me getting it but rather its a open conversation thread where everyone has a chance to be heard... tone it down brother
You are hearing from experienced traders now. Do not be offended by the input. I have nothing to tone down. Looking for proof of success from people who are not charging you any money is nonsensical.

Try their system, if you don't like it, move on.

Usually, if you do try a system you will learn a thing or two about yourself and how your mind works. You will also learn more about indicators, price action, etc.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
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