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The HOLY GRAIL 130 replies

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  • #21
  • Nov 16, 2013 10:22pm Nov 16, 2013 10:22pm
Quoting Kanzler
... but think of it this way - indicators are based on "lagging" candles. So indicators lag twice as much as candles do.
Fully agree.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #22
  • Nov 16, 2013 10:22pm Nov 16, 2013 10:22pm
Quoting Kanzler
{quote} I've seen this argument so many times but think of it this way - indicators are based on "lagging" candles. So indicators lag twice as much as candles do.
Indicators in fact are based on the same information that the candles are based on.......indicators are not based on the candles themselves.

I should edit that to say that *most* indicators are not based on the candles.....those that are will be rubbish indicators!
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #23
  • Nov 16, 2013 10:38pm Nov 16, 2013 10:38pm
Quoting FerruFx
{quote} Of course yes these indicators are lagging ... like any indicator. BTW, even the price itself is lagging ...
Exactly true.

And My Friend Mara1, i hope you can understand, don't misplaced indicators function. Let say market movement is a 'Speaker' and the rest tools and indicators and even any type of charts just like 'Translators' that only wait and 'translate' what 'speaker' say.. they will not give any opinion about what 'speaker' talking about, so asking something to the 'translator' is useless, you should ask to the 'speaker' and if you asking with different language from the speaker then the 'translator' will try to 'translate' your questions, but sometime if you are not clear with your questions, you will get wrong answer from the speaker. Of course it is not the 'translator' fault so don't 'blame' your translators .

Be Smart with your Questions first..
  • #24
  • Nov 16, 2013 10:43pm Nov 16, 2013 10:43pm
Quoting realjumper
{quote} Indicators in fact are based on the same information that the candles are based on ...
Any indicator is based (calculated) on price candles which are based on the information we are talking about. So yes indicators are based on this same information ... but with an "intermediary" : the candles.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #25
  • Nov 16, 2013 10:45pm Nov 16, 2013 10:45pm
Quoting FerruFx
{quote} Any indicator is based (calculated) on price candles which are based on the information we are talking about. So yes indicators are based on this same information ... but with an "intermediary" : the candles.
No. There is price....and there is candles. Candles are based on the price. So are most indicators......just have a look at the code of the indicators, it's easy to see.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #26
  • Edited 11:21pm Nov 16, 2013 10:51pm | Edited 11:21pm
I think Mara misunderstood my post.
They are literally over 500 systems on this section which have valid point of view.Almost all have some kind of indicators.
Indicators are for most part mathematical reflection of price history hence by their nature are lagging.
What does this mean?for common example it means move started at 1.3520 down, at 1.35 indicators starting to point down and by the time it really points down is at 1.3475 45pips from initial move,at which point she/he decides rather gingerly lets take a short since everything is pointing south and once in price turns around at support and shoots 75 pips up hitting your sl if any set and trade ends up a loss.
This scenario happens with RSI.MACD,Stoch just about all indicators because indicators can't read market behavior.
This is why retail traders lose because most amateurs seek guidance in indicators instead of trying to learn the market and proper trading..

I know one thing about trading.You get from market what you deserve.This cycle will continue until you wake up!until then prepare to lose on consistent bases.
Once you shed your arrogance and be open to change and learn perhaps you may succeed otherwise market will whip you over and over until you realize what you could not before.

I can go even further
They are literally hundreds of robots programmed to hit every MACD,RSI.CCI Pivot levels.We are trading in an environment with booby traps all over.
You must be aware and not be seating duck.
Did you notice price usually hits round number example 1.59 but goes further down 1.5875 bounces up back to 1.59 and continues up trend.Market makers know average retail traders stop is 20pips and they tend to place below above round numbers S/R pivots key CCI,MACD,RCI levels.
Smart thing to do is lower your lot size and increase your SL to distance from predicable stop levels.
Your lot size relative to account size and SL size is more relevant to profits then entry.
For example you enter long at 1.35 Euro but your sl is 1.3480. Price drops 1.3475 takes you out then turns around and goes your direction up without you.You had the direction right but still lost.You see its more then entry.Focus on your SL and position size.Key factors.

Little testing shows this indicator sucks big time
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In trading, you have to be defensive and aggressive at the same time
  • #27
  • Nov 16, 2013 11:13pm Nov 16, 2013 11:13pm
Quoting smash1820
{quote} I assume you are talking about the order book. But even still, I'm not so sure I agree with your statement. Price is the best leading indicator out there (other than other flow, which I would not call an indicator).
Price moves AFTER a transaction, not before.

Therefore, price lags. Not by much, but it's behind.
No way I'll wreck this... It's a beer truck!
  • #28
  • Nov 16, 2013 11:55pm Nov 16, 2013 11:55pm
Quoting realjumper
{quote} No. There is price....and there is candles. Candles are based on the price. So are most indicators......just have a look at the code of the indicators, it's easy to see.
I can't say all indicators are going to lag behind what the candles print since the candles are just displaying this raw data (OHLC), but most of them will due to the calculations they make from the information. The biggest offender is the moving average, all you have to do is look at a chart with one on it to see you get the same information but two periods later. Junk.
  • #29
  • Nov 17, 2013 12:33am Nov 17, 2013 12:33am
Quoting handy148
Another poor lamb to the slaughter.
This is what they would have probaly thought about me in 2008 when I wrote. "Sorry for my ignorance, but could someone please tell me what a pa is?"
There is always something new to learn and beleive me I wasn't new to this shit when I asked this question and other like what's Fib? How you people identify trend? how to attach a chart with my post? ............................... this is who I was when I asked these stupid questions.
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The Thief of Wall Street
  • #30
  • Nov 17, 2013 12:49am Nov 17, 2013 12:49am
Quoting realjumper
{quote} No. There is price....and there is candles. Candles are based on the price. So are most indicators......just have a look at the code of the indicators, it's easy to see.
This isn't different than what I said. Anything shown on your chart is already back the information it is based on.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #31
  • Nov 17, 2013 1:36am Nov 17, 2013 1:36am
here is om 15 min EJ

with some losses maybe is not the Holy ,but maybe caould be make better!?
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  • #32
  • Nov 17, 2013 1:52am Nov 17, 2013 1:52am
Quoting mara1
here is om 15 min EJ with some losses maybe is not the Holy ,but maybe caould be make better!? {image} {image}
Nothing different from most systems.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #33
  • Nov 17, 2013 7:11am Nov 17, 2013 7:11am
Quoting mara1
here is om 15 min EJ with some losses maybe is not the Holy ,but maybe caould be make better!? {image} {image}
I have an idea. Spray some perfume on it.
  • #34
  • Nov 17, 2013 1:21pm Nov 17, 2013 1:21pm
Quoting Kiads
{quote} Exactly true. And My Friend Mara1, i hope you can understand, don't misplaced indicators function. Let say market movement is a 'Speaker' and the rest tools and indicators and even any type of charts just like 'Translators' that only wait and 'translate' what 'speaker' say.. they will not give any opinion about what 'speaker' talking about, so asking something to the 'translator' is useless, you should ask to the 'speaker' and if you asking with different language from the speaker then the 'translator' will try to 'translate' your questions,...
My Freind Kiads you didnt understand the point!

I find this Indi and I share it ,so maybe somone make it better all other comment are unles and wont help any one!

I think I see many think in last 12 years on FX maybe I trade bevor you so no comments iff cant help other

thx and reg!
  • #35
  • Edited 3:42pm Nov 17, 2013 2:37pm | Edited 3:42pm
Quoting Kanzler
{quote} I can't say all indicators are going to lag behind what the candles print since the candles are just displaying this raw data (OHLC), but most of them will due to the calculations they make from the information. The biggest offender is the moving average, all you have to do is look at a chart with one on it to see you get the same information but two periods later. Junk.
I agree with you re the moving average, bu that indi necessarily *has* to lag due to it's nature of 'averaging'....the longer the period covered, the greater the lag.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #36
  • Nov 17, 2013 2:39pm Nov 17, 2013 2:39pm
Quoting FerruFx
{quote} This isn't different than what I said. Anything shown on your chart is already back the information it is based on.
Precisely.....for instance a candle isn't complete until the last moment of the period. So, a one hour (h1) candle won't be complete, and therefore won't be reliable until after the 59th second of the 59th minute of the hour.
Doing what you like is Freedom. Liking what you do is Happiness.
  • #37
  • Last Post: Nov 17, 2013 3:20pm Nov 17, 2013 3:20pm
Oh my gosh, I had no idea I would start such an intense debate. It seems this conversation is going on everywhere here at FF, so here are my final, departing thoughts on this topic:

1) The market moves based on order flow -- whether you can see it or not. It is always there.

2) You can see the order flow in your charts and trade off of it, but it's not as easy without confirmation, and that is why indicators are (usually) necessary.

3) Most indicators ARE lagging, and price is often the best indicator out there, but it alone is not enough. Whether or not price is considered an indicator and/or lagging is of no concern to me because of Point #4.

4) Indicators provide the trader with the necessary psychological and mental components of trading (ie: that of confirmation), and therefore are far from useless. My favorite indicator is stochastics and you'd probably all argue that it is lagging, but I don't care, because I have found a remarkable way to use it that works almost every single time. It's not the tool you use, but how you use the tool.

PS: I suggest if you or anyone still wants to have this fight, please join me over at my thread here, where it is probably a more suitable point of conversation.
Please check out my blog at https://from-zero-to-hero . net
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