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SAR Method on 4hr Charts

  • Post #81
  • Quote
  • Edited at 2:29pm Oct 5, 2013 2:14pm | Edited at 2:29pm
Quoting kosmo
{quote} I have yet to decide the way to trade the system. Jim said we can make it as mechanical or as discretional as we like, and it looks like it is an important choice to make with respect to potential results. Being too aggressive at my first attempt on GJ produced only BE+3, whereas sticking to the mechanical rules would have caught me in the mid week's chop with unnecessary reversals. Looking back at this week's PA (GJ), the best result would be when not moving the SAR at all. That's hindsight, of course. Food for thought too. {image}
Hey Kosmo...I think the question you are considering is how long you want to be in a trade...whether you will trade short or longer term...

If, for example, you want to ride the trend for a much longer term trade (several weeks or more) then you might want to consider being less aggressive in moving your stop...but you will also need to live with large pull backs. On the other hand if you want to take profits sooner and be involved in shorter term pull backs and retraces, then you will need to be more aggressive in moving your stops...but you will also be vulnerable to the inevitable whipsaws that come.

As I see it this method is extremely mechanical and on the 4 hr chart you are basically trading the weekly moves, while getting a really good entry (from the weekly point of view). The discretion only comes as to how you want your trades to flow...each side has benefits and risks...there is never any "wrong" answer only what YOU feel comfortable with.

Personally I have taken to using this strategy in two ways. I use it on 6 hr candles (because I want to sleep) for trend moves and feel comfortable with stops as large as 250 pips to make 700-800 pips in a trade that takes about 3-5 weeks to complete. I also use this strategy on 1 min candles with the DOW e-mini on a daily basis at the NY open. I am very aggressive moving stops and so far (since I started 1 1/2 weeks ago) have logged an 80% success rate while gaining an average of 29 pips daily to keep the account building.

If you don't have a futures account you can try this on a 5 min chart during the London session and have similar results. Its all up to how YOU feel you want your trading style to be overall.

Edit**for some reason this thing posted 4 times...hopefully I have removed them all except the original
Quoting gspajon
{quote} Hey Kosmo...I think the question you are considering is how long you want to be in a trade...whether you will trade short or longer term... If, for example, you want to ride the trend for a much longer term trade (several weeks or more) then you might want to consider being less aggressive in moving your stop...but you will also need to live with large pull backs. On the other hand if you want to take profits sooner and be involved in shorter term pull backs and retraces, then you will need to be more aggressive in moving your stops...but...
Thanks gspajon, versatlity of a method is a good sign. On 4HR currecies I am finding better results with some pairs over others in bactests. The backtests are only for this year though. I will look back further on GBPUSD because for 2013 it beats all others by far.
Quoting mikeh3855
{quote} Thanks gspajon, versatlity of a method is a good sign. On 4HR currecies I am finding better results with some pairs over others in bactests. The backtests are only for this year though. I will look back further on GBPUSD because for 2013 it beats all others by far.
Mike...(and anyone else) please call me Jerry...

From what I can see, this method works well on any trending pair...take a look at any JPY pair this past 12 months and you will see HUGE gains. Obviously. The real work will be in deciding (ahead of time) how you want to deal with a ranging market...trade through it and take the hits or wait...you will never know if its a ranging market ahead of time...you will only find yourself stuck in one.

For my part, I have chosen to go out just a bit more to a 6 hr candle. I find it rides out most of the intraweek chop without stopping and reversing too often. Its only slightly different than the 4 hr candle and allow me the benefit of sleeping at least 6 hrs during the night. Sometimes as much as 12 hrs without any real change.
Quoting Ozzie
{quote} Could you please explain how you come to your "original Entry" as I am unable to duplicate your Entry. At present I would have a short Entry at about 157.50 and stop at 158.84. I did not take this trade as it was not very clear to me. Thanks for your participation.
Ozzie, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. My entry on GJ was two weeks ago on 23.09, shortly after Sydney open. The screenshot shows where I put the four lines prior to the entry. The entry itself was aggressive as the pending short waited right at the lowest line, and was filled with some slippage @158.692 (the green line). The candle with the cross sign above is where I moved the SL to BE+3 and was eventually stopped out.

The point I was making was that by not moving the SAR at all from its original position just above 160.00, would have scored around 280 pips in two weeks (or 2R for those who prefer not to count in pips).
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mind over matter
Quoting gspajon
{quote} Hey Kosmo...I think the question you are considering is how long you want to be in a trade...whether you will trade short or longer term... If, for example, you want to ride the trend for a much longer term trade (several weeks or more) then you might want to consider being less aggressive in moving your stop...but you will also need to live with large pull backs. On the other hand if you want to take profits sooner and be involved in shorter term pull backs and retraces, then you will need to be more aggressive in moving your stops...but...
Hey Jerry

That's a fantastic post. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and shedding some light on my dilemmas. What attracted me to the system in the first place, was the fact that it was designed as mechanical and does not require much attention. For that reason I am considering running it on a separate account on several well trending pairs. The unfortunate GJ trade will serve as a reminder for me to keep it simple. I will certainly look into the H6 option too. At the moment I'm moving away from the lower time frames towards the dailies, with the goal of making 1000-1500 pips monthly (not there yet). If the SAR system could add to the bottom line that's all the better.

Jo
mind over matter
Quoting kosmo
{quote} Ozzie, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. My entry on GJ was two weeks ago on 23.09, shortly after Sydney open. The screenshot shows where I put the four lines prior to the entry. The entry itself was aggressive as the pending short waited right at the lowest line, and was filled with some slippage @158.692 (the green line). The candle with the cross sign above is where I moved the SL to BE+3 and was eventually stopped out. The point I was making was that by not moving the SAR at all from its original position just above 160.00, would...
Thanks for your clarification.
  • Post #87
  • Quote
  • Edited at 7:39pm Oct 7, 2013 7:28pm | Edited at 7:39pm
Quoting kosmo
{quote} If kissing RJ's bottom is the only experience you gained from your limited participation in the Genesis thread, then I hope it was pleasurable enough for you.
I never kissed his bottom. I only made one post and he kicked me out
tixy| Jun 6, 2013


{quote} Yes it looks the same

I have no problem to stay out of his thread but you should not tell us about him in this thread.
Quoting mikeh3855
Here's a shot of this live trade progressing. {image}
Thank you for the chart Mike
Thought I would follow up seeing the trade went so well, and caught a nice reversal. My backtests on 4 hr charts pretty much point to profitability only on specific pairs. Backtesting did also help me to familiarize myself with some nuances of the method. For instance, when setting the SAR level, always look to the left and keep in mind recent support and resistance. The SAR levels can bounce the price as well as put you into a nice trade on a breakout. If you see serious recent support or resistance it helps to adjust your SAR accordingly.
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Quoting tixy
{quote} I have no problem to stay out of his thread but you should not tell us about him in this thread.
There is nothing wrong with quoting an experienced trader on any thread. If you do not tolerate RJ, that is your problem not mine, so please refrain from telling me what I should or should not do.

As our opinions clearly differ, let's agree to disagree and move on. No need to litter Jim's thread with silly discussions.
mind over matter
Hi all,

Thanks to Jim for this great system, what a nice and simple system!
I'm subscribed and wil be following closely.
Persistence will get it. Consistency will keep it.
It is simple. It's very relaxing to trade on 4 hr TF. Bactesting shows me that strict and patient rule flollowing pays off, as with any method.
  • Post #93
  • Quote
  • Edited at 6:33am Oct 13, 2013 4:17am | Edited at 6:33am
Quoting kosmo
{quote} There is nothing wrong with quoting an experienced trader on any thread. If you do not tolerate RJ, that is your problem not mine, so please refrain from telling me what I should or should not do. As our opinions clearly differ, let's agree to disagree and move on. No need to litter Jim's thread with silly discussions.
Then you also take your own advice and stop telling people what to do. If you want to quote an experienced trader about a trading problem it is ok but about a personal view is not ok .
It is silly discussion to you maybe but why can such an experienced trader kick someone out of a thread for saying only 5 words in the whole thread {quote} Yes it looks the same .That person should not be respected and we don't need to hear about him in this thread.

You can know when a person is loosing an argument because they start to insult the person they are arguing with

Quoting kosmo
{quote} If kissing RJ's bottom is the only experience you gained from your limited participation in the Genesis thread, then I hope it was pleasurable enough for you.
All through this debate I have avoided any personal attacks or insults to you.


I am not the one with the problem with RJ and now we can stop about this.
tixy

Why are you spoiling this fine thread with such remarks? If you are not happy let it go.
Regards

Hi bill

How do you but a stop and rev on mt4.

Do you but a stop then a pending order to buy or sell

At the same point?
Redfan, yes, you put a stop on your order that is in progress and a pending order to buy or sell at the same place. So a buy or sell stop. Add spread for a buy.
Interesting strategy buff. Always nice to see something a little bit cleaner and different.

Here's one I'm in now. We'll take it for a spin
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Hey all,

Been testing SAR Method 2 weeks of October, took 10 pairs, so far a row of losses, but trades in progress gained +800 pips. The question that I struggle with most is taking profits, I notice to lose too much pips along the way, when all 4 lines are in play, the pair is trending and then reverses down through these 4 lines and rushes to SAR, leaving me either a few pips profit or even losses. So when do we have to take our profit? Buff has already mentioned that he used to target at 200 pips. Maybe its worth a try? How do you accompany your trades? Dont wanna lose that many pips on reversal...
Quoting mikeh3855
Redfan, yes, you put a stop on your order that is in progress and a pending order to buy or sell at the same place. So a buy or sell stop. Add spread for a buy.

Thank for info.mikeh3855

I have try this on two chart been in profit both times £420 and £61 I don't have A target I just look at the money and take it.

how are you doing with it?.
Here are my trades with this method for the last month or so. I have to admit that I couldnt resist taking profit when I had a figure on the table equal to 20% of this account. Against the rules. I know, so these results are not stictly mechanical. My backtests show that there is high correlation between the usual pairs. I am restricting trading to the GBPUSD and AUDJPY. GBPJPY is just too volatile and CADJPY is very closely corelated to AUDJPY with this...so AUDJPY just had a slightly better return in backtests. My intent also is to play 10% per trade. Go ahead, beat me up on that one. The fact is the win rate for this method for the pairs mentioned is high, over 60% and the win ratio sits around 1.5 average. I've been at this for too long and I have no intention of turning $1000 or $2000 into $3000 in a year. Or even $5000 into $7500. You might as well play the crawling stock market.

If one were to stay mechanical with this restricting to these pairs I believe the retuirn would be substantial. I am not recommending anyone play 10% per trade, at least not untill you've spent a few hours backtesting this manually to detemine how well you would handle the drawdowns. They aren't that bad. Hit F12 on your keyboard, it will scroll candle by candle. Even then, 10% is crazy, but again backtests give me the confidence to hang in.

Buff, thanks again for the clearest exlaination of a method one could expect.
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