After years in trading, do you still believe in get-rich-fast BS? | Page 5 | Forex Factory

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After years in trading, do you still believe in get-rich-fast BS?

  • #81
  • Oct 22, 2013 12:57pm Oct 22, 2013 12:57pm
Quoting TranceTrader
LOL {quote}
Yup, sad but true (thinking about writing a trading psychology book too haha).
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #82
  • Oct 22, 2013 12:57pm Oct 22, 2013 12:57pm
Quoting vox dei
{quote} IMHO, psychology is the most overrated aspect of trading ever, mostly thanks to author Mark Douglas. My view is that #1 thing a trader needs is a proven edge. In most cases, psychology issues can be easily corrected once the trader perceives he/she has a proven edge. Automated trading is a lot more friendly and practical than discretionary trading in both regards. It makes testing if there's an edge a lot easier. It allows to skip psychology issues entirely. I'm of the opinion that humans have far greater potential than any EAs in trading....
Agree 100% on the psych bullshit, but not the discretionary/auto part because the few traders I know who make money all use a discretionary aspect and that's all I can say on that. I know of 0 fully automated profitable traders with no discretion, we can discuss that if you want but it will run deep. But anyway, back to the psych...

Psych will not make you a pro player in any sport or game. It will help a pro player that is struggling with a psychological issue. That is not the case most of the time with FF retail traders. What is the case is lack of edge and/or money management for it which causes loss of money and stress. So psych problems are the effect not the cause.

Douglas is not a psychologist you're right, he is just capitalizing on this nonsense, but there is a guy in the trader psych field Brett Steenbarger who is qualified so if by the slim chance this is what is holding you back, he has material on the subject. You being a psychologist might want to check it out I don't know.
  • #83
  • Oct 22, 2013 1:42pm Oct 22, 2013 1:42pm
Quoting chucklots
{quote} Agree 100% on the psych bullshit, but not the discretionary/auto part because the few traders I know who make money all use a discretionary aspect and that's all I can say on that. I know of 0 fully automated profitable traders with no discretion, we can discuss that if you want but it will run deep. But anyway, back to the psych... Psych will not make you a pro player in any sport or game. It will help a pro player that is struggling with a psychological issue. That is not the case most of the time with FF retail traders. What is the case...
Well, my experience is exactly the opposite. I know and have seen several automated traders who are and have been consistently profitable for quite some time for sure. The same thing I cannot say about discretionary traders, but I know they exist too. I'm competent and frankly already over qualified when it comes to psychology. Trust me that is not what's holding me back from being a discretionary trading star Discretionary trading for me is not about following rules. EAs (as long as properly coded) will follow rules better than any human. Discretionary trading for me is all about knowing when to break the rules. It's about being flexible at the right timing. It's about being able to recognize an (impossible to code) exception to the rule and act upon it in real time. It's about sensibility, intuition, gut feeling whatever that ultimately works and cannot be coded. That is the only thing I can think of, that us humans in theory can do better than robots. That is why I've mentioned genius and art associated with discretionary trading. Only a few will ever make it at discretionary trading. Odds are that I'm not one of them. I'm simply playing the odds while trying to reap maximum benefit from my best strength which lies in approaching things in a scientific manner.
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #84
  • Oct 22, 2013 1:57pm Oct 22, 2013 1:57pm
Quoting vox dei
{quote} Well, my experience is exactly the opposite. I know and have seen several automated traders who are and have been consistently profitable for quite some time for sure. The same thing I cannot say about discretionary traders, but I know they exist too. I'm competent and frankly already over qualified when it comes to psychology. Trust me that is not what's holding me back from being a discretionary trading star Discretionary trading for me is not about following rules. EAs (as long as properly coded) will follow rules better than any human....

See that is the thing, I think what you're referring to as discretionary trader (genious artist) is not what I mean. And yes all of them have intuitive market feel. Everyone is simply playing the odds when they have an edge you can never know 100% that's impossible things can happen that are completely out of everyone's control that affect markets, think geopolitical stuff, etc.

Some of these guys use automated systems to help find the trades, and for scaling in/out of trades but I really don't think there is a fully automated system that is profitable without discretion in the long run. I am talking about hedge funds with the best available systems, they all use it.

When I say profitable traders that are discretionary, I am talking under 100k to over 1MM and some as far as 10MM+. I don't know how well you know your auto traders or how long quite some time is but one question, you are implying that they run automated systems that are coded, EA's, that do not need to be touched that are pulling profits for considerable lengths of time throughout changing conditions, say over 2+ years? Hell, even a year would impress me. If so, that I cannot believe. Are these running on spot fx only? Is there a link where they show performance of these bots?
  • #85
  • Oct 22, 2013 3:04pm Oct 22, 2013 3:04pm
Quoting chucklots
{quote} See that is the thing, I think what you're referring to as discretionary trader (genious artist) is not what I mean. And yes all of them have intuitive market feel. Everyone is simply playing the odds when they have an edge you can never know 100% that's impossible things can happen that are completely out of everyone's control that affect markets, think geopolitical stuff, etc. Some of these guys use automated systems to help find the trades, and for scaling in/out of trades but I really don't think there is a fully automated system that...
OK, I get what you mean by discretionary trading. It's not that far from what I meant. We both see it as trading where the trader him/herself is in control of the whole decision making process.

When I speak of automated trading, there is always some level of discretion involved, but it is minimal. Minimal discretion means switching the EA ON/OFF, having the common sense to not trade on Monday when there were major impact events like elections over the weekend, monitoring performance/drawdown and adjust accordingly (position sizing, re-optimization, etc). Things like that. Also note that I'm not talking about using a single EA either. I'm talking about using a portfolio of EAs fit together in a way that aims to minimize drawdown.

Most hedge funds have pathetic average returns. That's something I'll never understand but it doesn't matter either...

The traders you know have way more funds than I have or am used to see anyone trade. 10 million!?

There are a few EAs profitable for over 2 years. Almost all of them need to be adjusted to changing market conditions from time to time (ie, re-optimized). I only know of FX EAs because I do not trade other markets, but I don't see why 2y+ profitable EAs shouldn't exist for other markets as well.

Examples (both running the same settings all this time):

http://www.myfxbook.com/members/TulipFX/kangaroo/68427

http://www.myfxbook.com/members/auto...bot-real/95290

Hope it's ok to post here! I'm in no way affiliated with the owners of these EAs/accounts.
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #86
  • Oct 22, 2013 3:13pm Oct 22, 2013 3:13pm
Quoting Eur Usd
{quote} can't tell, but in few years guy got to point where he trades full time
Why does it have to be such a freaking secret to point to a profitable trader?
Anything can happen in FOREX. There's no 100% sure
  • #87
  • Oct 22, 2013 3:43pm Oct 22, 2013 3:43pm
Quoting vox dei
{quote} OK, I get what you mean by discretionary trading. It's not that far from what I meant. We both see it as trading where the trader him/herself is in control of the whole decision making process. When I speak of automated trading, there is always some level of discretion involved, but it is minimal. Minimal discretion means switching the EA ON/OFF, having the common sense to not trade on Monday when there were major impact events like elections over the weekend, monitoring performance/drawdown and adjust accordingly (position sizing, re-optimization,...
Fair enough man, yea these guys I know of (not personally) are serious. They are not just trading FX, and not just spot, this should be noted, but I heard of some working nice gains solely on FX spot, not 10MM though, more like low to mid 6 figures maybe some up to 1MM but I am not sure about that. Keep in mind I have heard of some big BS going on with myfxbook, but do appreciate the links, I'll go over them. FX is a very tough market, most suffer big drawdowns and poor risk reward.
  • #88
  • Oct 22, 2013 4:10pm Oct 22, 2013 4:10pm
The two myfxbook accounts posted are well know and show accurate data.
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #89
  • Oct 24, 2013 3:16pm Oct 24, 2013 3:16pm
Quoting piptastic
{quote} Why does it have to be such a freaking secret to point to a profitable trader?
I don't like to count somebody else's money so I won't point the trader, but can point you profitable method - you need to learn a lot, and will take you some time to learn it, but in few years your life can change
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #90
  • Oct 25, 2013 3:57am Oct 25, 2013 3:57am
Quoting michaelpelly
{quote} Since you are the same age as me - here is an idea - get a good payed job or start one or several small business ventures and use wisely FX as personal/company income profit amplifier. That will reduce the stress, and hey - everything as annual % above 5% (what a bank will give max) is all yours and increases your wealth. So in 10-15 yrs things might be quite different for you. FX is not a dream - FX is a tool...remember this and you will reduce the emotions.
all's so true. the point is I have no balls nor idea to start side business, but keep thinking and trying all the time - the worst think one can do is to sit on your ass and do nothing
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #91
  • Oct 29, 2013 10:18am Oct 29, 2013 10:18am
Quoting Eur Usd
{quote} I don't like to count somebody else's money so I won't point the trader, but can point you profitable method - you need to learn a lot, and will take you some time to learn it, but in few years your life can change

Just point the way, show us what you got.
Let it turn and find your entry.
  • #92
  • Oct 29, 2013 10:21am Oct 29, 2013 10:21am
Quoting Intrepidpips
{quote} Just point the way, show us what you got.
Basics of James 16, basics of price action, and Dance/Choros method
good luck
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #93
  • Oct 29, 2013 10:30am Oct 29, 2013 10:30am
Quoting Eur Usd
{quote} Basics of James 16, basics of price action, and Dance/Choros method good luck

I always refer newbies to James 16 but for me the recommendation to trade daily TF first, just does not cut it for me too slow a process to get to pPptopia land.
What I advocate is find a strategy that suits you, master it target 10, 15, 20, 30, or 40 pips daily average daily and consistently, then compound your way to wealth.
Let it turn and find your entry.
  • #94
  • Oct 29, 2013 10:35am Oct 29, 2013 10:35am
Quoting Intrepidpips
{quote} I always refer newbies to James 16 but for me the recommendation to trade daily TF first, just does not cut it for me too slow a process to get to pPptopia land. What I advocate is find a strategy that suits you, master it target 10, 15, 20, 30, or 40 pips daily average daily and consistently, then compound your way to wealth.
I agree. It's good to look at daily chart, but trading would be too slow. personally I pay attention only on 15m and 1h, anything above it is not necessary for me (I amso look at 5m, 4h and 1d but they are not as important for me as 15m and 1h). I tried few times PA on daily and it doesn't work for me, or maybe my s/l were too narrow for the time frame
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #95
  • Oct 29, 2013 11:06am Oct 29, 2013 11:06am
Hallo all friends here,

I think everything is possible.

If you think it is not, sure you are right, it is not for you.

If you think it is, sure you are right, you can achieve it.

It depends on you.

Thanks and regards,
anton
  • #96
  • Oct 29, 2013 3:52pm Oct 29, 2013 3:52pm
Quoting Eur Usd
It's been nearly 3 years since I started trading - I started trading on demo for fun. I've been doing ... lots of knowledge, I could probably do workshops in trading psychology...after few years spent in fx market - do you still believe you can get rich fast? I don't...The way I see it is you need to give yourself 5-10-15 years to get to bigger money... how about you guys - do you still believe in get rich fast in fx market? what are your views? did any of you get to point where you live of fx? I know only one person here that did succeed
Success is a journey, not a destination. You are successful, but not entirely in the financial way. To achieve the financial rewards ou seek you need to think differently. Set your goals and stay focussed and disciplined to achieving those goals and not letting anything interfere with that process to the popint of almost entirely ignoring everything that does not fit into that dream.

A dream is a set of parameters that consist of a sequence of goals or events leading ultimately to the conclusion of that dream.

Little dreams are easily achieved, life-long ambitions are a little more complicated.

Plans must be detailed and uncomplicated. Keep It Stupidly Simple: KISS principle.

Dream very big, plan really well, achieve all goals, live the dream.

Do consider that if your dream causes you to design complicated and delicate plans, then it's probably beyond sustainability and realisty.
You win, you lose. All else is history. The future does not exist.
  • #97
  • Oct 29, 2013 4:50pm Oct 29, 2013 4:50pm
YES I still believe and in Silicon Heaven ( where would all the calculators go! ) but not that crappy human heaven, made up to stop us all going mad!!

So yes, BUT it might take years to get there and there is no point looking for a vaguely profitable 20% per year method ( unless your already rich, if so why are you trading, get a life ), so you have to find a method which supports the dream, so unless you think what your working on can do 100% per month, keep looking.

7+ years in, I'm getting close to the dream!!
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
  • #98
  • Oct 29, 2013 5:22pm Oct 29, 2013 5:22pm
most people are on the "...or die trying" side of the equation.
  • #99
  • Last Post: Oct 29, 2013 5:36pm Oct 29, 2013 5:36pm
Quoting virensfx
most people are on the \"...or die trying\" side of the equation.
To be fair, that's how I live my entire life!!



It is better to die trying and not married, than it is to live forever married.
Nothing to it, but to do it!!! Stick to the plan FOOL!!!!
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