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Any broker with API trading on small accounts?

  • #1
  • First Post: Edited 5:59pm Oct 14, 2013 5:35pm | Edited 5:59pm
I know the general answer is NO, that is why I am asking for a maybe.

My needs: I want to trade from Android, using a custom software. -hopefully bug free.
Amount to play with: 500-10k usd

I have tried:

  1. Oanda: they charting software is nice to see in software demo, websites, but is a joke how they don't let to change the TP , SL on an opened position. It is not for trade now, for sure. They have API for 600$ / month
  2. Dukascopy: secured until useless: I am opening a browser to check a news release result and until I go back to platform bypass the PIN place the trade it is 60-90 seconds + everytime I get out from app and go back: there is a loading, waiting progress. They have API for 100k usd deposit.
  3. Android MT4. This I am using now: but it is not optimised for my phone, at all. I got a device with 1920x1080 resolution and his charting is for the 800x480 resolution. Now Alpari UK allows position hedging, so no stupid error messages from MT4, like out of quote, because Oanda has FIFO...

It is not so hard to make a good platform for a category of devices(low, middle, top)., but If you want so general as it should run on 320x240 Xperia mini and on Full HD devices, than is hard a bit. Also I don't need a gazillion of custom indicators ( just 1) and it enough 1-2 FPS for me, for sure not need 100 FPS to drain my battery fast as possible and I saw a few OpenGL implementation like that...

Using NDK I have huge memory available: up to device free memory: around 1-1.5 GB, only for SDK is the 24Mb, 36mb limit, but on rooted devices it can be increased over the largeHeap limit too. I don't see ANY reason why my mobile should suffer any disadvantage versus my Netbook with single core Atom N270, around 1.6 Ghz, and 1024x600 resolution, video card on board, a lot less L1,L2 cache only because that is PC...

I would make it even open source, if that is a requirement.

I want to buy PATIENCE
  • #2
  • Oct 14, 2013 8:17pm Oct 14, 2013 8:17pm
Have you checked Interactive Brokers?
  • #3
  • Oct 14, 2013 10:53pm Oct 14, 2013 10:53pm
Quoting MidKnight
Have you checked Interactive Brokers?
Never, but as you suggested I have tried:

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: chart.png Size: 112 KB


Very strange chart... not even a candle.
They has an API, but if they can't make an app on it... I need to fix it?

The app has a nice design: shiny icons!
I want to buy PATIENCE
  • #4
  • Oct 14, 2013 11:15pm Oct 14, 2013 11:15pm
LOL, I've never used the mobile app sorry, but I knew they had one available. I do use them for my datafeed into multicharts.net though....Maybe play around some more and see if its just trying to plot the last rather than the bid or ask.

With kind regards,
MK
  • #5
  • Oct 15, 2013 11:57am Oct 15, 2013 11:57am
Quoting matheszabi
I know the general answer is NO, that is why I am asking for a maybe. My needs: I want to trade from Android, using a custom software. -hopefully bug free. Amount to play with: 500-10k usd
FXCM offers two free API options: ForexConnect and Java.
  • #6
  • Oct 15, 2013 1:05pm Oct 15, 2013 1:05pm
Quoting Jason Rogers
{quote} FXCM offers two free API options: ForexConnect and Java.
Thank you.

FXCM is an expensive broker, but if has a usable API I would switch to it. At least I would give a try.

How much does it cost to use the API or how much equity needed? 25k as Active Trader? http://www.fxcm.com/services/compare-account-types/ as I see only that has "API Connections"
I want to buy PATIENCE
  • #7
  • Oct 15, 2013 11:52pm Oct 15, 2013 11:52pm
MBTrading "there is a one-time set-up fee of $250 to access the live environments. When trading live you will be required to maintain a minimum of $50 in commissions every month or you will be charged the net difference."

A few years ago they has incredible buggy software and only for windows. I don't expect to see a usable API at they. 50 $ / month is acceptable, that 250$ setup feee it is not justified imho.

AVAFX require only 1k usd balance, but it seems they are getting bad reviews here, like any broker.


Forex.com it says they api is free. step 5: "Fund your live trading account and begin using the API in the production environment" how much they need?
I want to buy PATIENCE
  • #8
  • Oct 17, 2013 3:58pm Oct 17, 2013 3:58pm
Quoting matheszabi
How much does it cost to use the API or how much equity needed? 25k as Active Trader? http://www.fxcm.com/services/compare-account-types/ as I see only that has "API Connections"
We actually offer 3 API options. Both ForexConnect and Java are free to all FXCM clients.

The FIX API is free to Active Trader accounts which are available to clients with a balance of 25K or at least 10M in monthly trading volume.

Quoting matheszabi
FXCM is an expensive broker, but if has a usable API I would switch to it. At least I would give a try.
It's important when comparing spreads between brokers to keep in mind what execution model is being used and whether there is an additional commission. FXCM charges no commission on top of the spread and offers clients the choice between two types of forex execution: No Dealing Desk (NDD) and Dealing Desk. While we believe that NDD execution provides the best all-around trading experience, we also offer dealing desk execution as an option for traders whose primary concern is low spreads. If you take a look at the real-time spreads here on Forex Factory, you'll see that our spreads compare favorably with other brokers on the same execution model that don't charge a commission.

Spreads are important, but they are just one factor out of many to consider when choosing a broker along with safety of funds, 24-hour customer support, research, education, trading platforms, programming services and API options. At FXCM, we seek to provide competitive spreads while also delivering great execution and additional resources that can help our clients to trade in forex market.
  • #9
  • Edited 5:32pm Oct 17, 2013 5:20pm | Edited 5:32pm
Quoting Jason Rogers
If you take a look at the real-time spreads here on Forex Factory, you'll see that our spreads compare favorably with other brokers .
You must be joking: http://www.fxcm.com/services/compare-account-types/

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min 2.6 pip NDD, of course I don't want DD, what to do with they... I do preffer ECN, but I don't believe I will get it a REAL one under 20 lot trade size, and that is not my trade sizes now. Not sure if Dukas Eu how is doing, maybe-maybe they are ECN with those 0.1 lots too, but others for sure not. FXOpenAu is a scam: deleted winning trades to not pay 40k usd, when he was under other name. I don't care if they 0ffer 0.1 pip spread or even negative spread too.

lets take a look what we have here:

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Oanda has increased spread because of news and out of NY session but they usually has around 1.2-1.8 pip London session or when overlap and no news release.

Just don't tell me you aren't one of the expensievest retail dealer! I start to believe the your next sentence will be "every trader or you are winning every time"

Lets get serious: your windows only platform 3-4 years ago had one of most nicer GUI and with almost 100 indicators.
That is very fine if you want to live with new investors money with micro accounts. They burn 250-2500$ and they are out. Need to spend a considerable amount of they money to get the next foul.

That platform at that time had a crazy, stupid "feature" I couldn't use at night and listen music, because that made a loud DING very often needed to rename the c:\program filesvttraderaudio folder to _audio ... such a ting... That was a "sound off button"

Than it cane the OCO orders and I wanted a "SL" and a "TP" only not to choose from "buy limit" "stop" whatever. Spread were 2x higher than in other part ofc I left.
Even now I wouldn't try that platform. It was like a weak C# implementation but shown some "ejb" error messages, which is J2EE. I don't know how could you mix technologies int that way... but is your problem.

Now: My trading style is to get 10-20-40 pip and take profit. SL is a bit larger, depends.

I am not playing so tight as I couldn't pay even 5 pip. But your almost 3 pip is like 2x more than 1.2 -1.5pip spread! "our spreads compare favorably with other brokers "...

Customer support it was kind, when I have used, but that is needed at really beginning. Now has almost 0 value: it reduce time for searching, maybe can lead to info, which can't be found in website or not in that way. for eg "Both ForexConnect and Java are free to all FXCM clients." this I couldn't read and I saw the API connection are for other players.

Probably in week-en I would try to read something about your platforms.

"FOREX CONNECT
The ForexConnect API is C++/.NET/Java API designed from scratch. " I hope not all mixed, if yes , than I bet I found a bug in 1 week

JAVA API
The Java API is a scalable, light and robust API for those looking to create either a client or server side application. The API Object model is based on the FIX specification for forex (http://www.fixprotocol.org*) and customized for trading with FXCM.
FEATURES:

  1. API Object model is based on the FIX specification for forex
  2. Message-based structure is very light
  3. Able to get historical trades and rates


If is used the Object default serialisation than is a shit and need to go to other way for performance, but I will stuck with SDK / NDK mixing code ( ADT don't want to handle properly- buggy that too). If is writes as how it should be: byte / bit level serialisation, maybe with compression, than is just fine!


For the start is sound good

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I want to buy PATIENCE
  • #10
  • Edited 2:53am Oct 21, 2013 2:37am | Edited 2:53am
Many mobile platforms fail.
Fail because are developed by who has developed the server side and desktop side version.
This wouldn't be a problem if they would recognize the mobile platform has limited power resources.
Most of they use xml messaging. Just calculated in an example I need to send 157 bytes. If it would be an optimised binary protocol than I need to send only 9 bytes. You can multiply this and you get the result in megabytes too. Mobile devices are using data plan to get internet. it is not the same to consume 1,57 Gb or just 90 Mb !!!

if you are to lazy to implement a binary protocols give at least a JSON, NOT XML....

I have read in a blog or in a Google doc about android programming:
DON'T ALLOCATE MEMORY IF DON'T HAVE TO AND DON'T WORK OF YOU DON'T HAVE TO!!!!

sound logic, splendid isn't? Than turn on a few development settings and see how existing mobile software are refreshing 5 times the whole screen, while only a smart part they need. This will result in battery power drain.

A wrong Opengl implementation can drain your battery fastest. and in desktop has no problem.

And in last: Android platform is not iOS platform, forget to plan 1 design for the same mobile platforms!

Since the lastest iOS version is 7 now you should support only the 7 not the 6 too. Apple users upgrade Oa fast if they can. Who can't afford a new device it is not your forexst client.

At android: most users are from Samsung devices.
you need 3 builds; 10 inch tablets 7 inch tablets and high end phones.
many use full HD resolution, a few just HD.
if they are using Android 2.3.3 they are not your forex clients neither with 480x800 pixel resolution.

Once you write a platform, than use it! If you were you drained the battery in 1 hour than fix it. If you used the whole mobile data plan in 1 week than fix it. If you can't ue it than add more features!
I want to buy PATIENCE
  • #11
  • Oct 21, 2013 4:25am Oct 21, 2013 4:25am
I must be missing something but I don't understand why you speak about charting and API in the same post. The API is only to transport messages to the broker not to chart anything. The charting is up to you.

I'm also interested in finding a correct API. So far I found:
- Oanda: $600 setup fee plus $600/month. Ridiculous and inacceptable. Disqualified.
- IB: Their API is actually an automation of their Windows only platform. Clumsy architecture. Disqualified.
- Dukascopy: $50K minimum deposit required to use their API. NO-GO until I'm a millionaire...
- forex.com: XML based stuff. Looks good but no historical tick data (AFAIK). It's a requirement to me.

So I use FXCM API for now. I can therefore talk about it objectively.

Pro:
- It exists! Given the small/non-existing choice that's a positive point

- It is free. Any demo account works.

- EU accounts accept opening positions in both directions for MTF strategies.

- They offer a real light weight API (Java API). 3 jars ~2Mb. They offer another heavier one (ForexConnect). They also offer FIX but you need big money like Dukascopy.

- You can download M1 candles up to since 2001 (depends on the instruments) and ticks up to 2007 (also depends on the instruments). I found broken M1 candles at the beginning of the history (like open above the high).

- You can modify your positions and pending orders.

- Event based. You can send multiple requests at the same time.

- Account oriented. What you do in the TS is notified to the API and the other way around. For instance the API can manage a position you open manually.


Con:
- The spread is indeed very high.

- You cannot retrieve the margin requirements from the API.

- No documentation. The two useless PDFs and the empty javadoc are far from what I'd dare calling documentation.

- No support. Their support team is made of plain incompetents. They always answer off-topic except when they just don't reply at all. The later happens when you spot an issue they can't baffle with marketing bullshit.

- You won't need a week to find a bug. I found a race condition. No answer from them. I found a NPE. Their answer: the symbol USD/RUB is a low liquiditiy pair. Note that I'm not even supposed to get this symbol in the first place!

- It is closed source. I don't understand why. That's just a transport protocol. No Intellectual Property to protect. Especially because it is inpired from FiX which is itself an open protocol... Community could fix their bugs they refuse to recognize as such.

- Their code is java 1.4 old (2004).

- It is relatively slow; even if they recently improved by a factor 2!
Inserted Code
$ ping www.fxcorporate.com
PING www.fxcorporate.com (204.8.240.52) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from www.fxcorporate.com (204.8.240.52): icmp_req=1 ttl=244 time=147 ms
64 bytes from www.fxcorporate.com (204.8.240.52): icmp_req=2 ttl=244 time=120 ms
64 bytes from www.fxcorporate.com (204.8.240.52): icmp_req=3 ttl=244 time=141 ms
As a comparison, Google's DNS:
Inserted Code
$ ping 8.8.8.8
PING 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_req=1 ttl=44 time=59.1 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_req=2 ttl=44 time=33.1 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_req=3 ttl=44 time=54.2 ms
64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_req=4 ttl=44 time=33.7 ms

Tiscali (tinet.net), their ISP seems to be the bottleneck (hop 8 to 9):
Inserted Code
 7  te8-1.ccr01.par05.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.58.122)  31.934 ms te2-4.ccr01.par05.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.2.233)  32.206 ms te1-2.ccr01.par05.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.1.22)  32.194 ms
 8  xe-2-0-2.par70.ip4.tinet.net (141.136.99.105)  32.073 ms  32.003 ms  31.954 ms
 9  xe-7-1-0.nyc32.ip4.tinet.net (89.149.183.114)  103.777 ms xe-9-1-0.nyc32.ip4.tinet.net (89.149.184.217)  103.569 ms xe-1-3-0.nyc32.ip4.tinet.net (89.149.184.101)  119.838 ms
10  fxcm-gw.ip4.tinet.net (199.229.230.178)  104.244 ms  103.789 ms  104.503 ms
11  www.fxcorporate.com (204.8.240.52)  105.246 ms  105.210 ms  104.829 ms

I'm very open to an alternative ;-)
No greed. No fear. Just maths.
  • #12
  • Oct 21, 2013 4:27pm Oct 21, 2013 4:27pm
Quoting PipMeUp
I must be missing something but I don't understand why you speak about charting and API in the same post. The API is only to transport messages to the broker not to chart anything. The charting is up to you. I'm also interested in finding a correct API. So far I found: - Oanda: $600 setup fee plus $600/month. Ridiculous and inacceptable. Disqualified. - IB: Their API is actually an automation of their Windows only platform. Clumsy architecture. Disqualified. - Dukascopy: $50K minimum deposit required to use their API. NO-GO until I'm a millionaire......
I would like to say any sentence is not completely true, or not always, but I can't.
In week-end I have checked FXCM open and closed source API: it is xml based, hackish, slow.

Some top? forex companies really fail to make mobile software, see here http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...90#post6423190
I see many 10k $ maybe 100k wasted on those platforms, which fail. Of course ppl don't want to use it a such a fail platform.
Or at network communication part or at UI part or at business logic part has major leaks and that was the common part what I am talking about charting and API.

Become a private brokerage to get an API? -just an API need for mobile not the whole cow farm...

From brokers side what would be the negatives to give use an API?
- we use the bandwith with they client or ours doesn't matter. Limitations can be set at server side anyhow.

Sorry, but I have to low IQ to understand why they can't make a free , open JSON facade to they xml API, instead of that are wasting money on full fail mobile platform. It would be 10x cheaper, less bandwith usage, more clients...

If somebody able to intercept JSON messages do you think is not able to catch xml ones? -it is absolutely nothing different in security point of view.
I want to buy PATIENCE
  • #13
  • Oct 23, 2013 11:56pm Oct 23, 2013 11:56pm
I've looked into this as well. I think the FIX API is the go. Its well supported and is standardised e.g. if Broker X burns your, you find a broker with a better connection or they simply just go out of business you can just go to Broker Y without having to rewrite all you message code. That last point to me is the real money saver writing the messaging part of the system yourself or paying someone costs you either or both time and cold hard cash.

But the best does have a (currently for me) high entry fee. Dukascopy is asking for a minimum USD$100K, Pepperstone is as around $250K. So in short you need to have real money to play in that space. Whilst having that kind of money is the plan and I need to the service to help get there as I've mentioned I'm kind of loathed to invest time (a.k.a money) writing code (or deciphering odd ball interfaces) to support all the different proprietary (a.k.a rubbish) APIs out there.

I have thought potentially a small group of traders could invest together (share the risk) and operate an account together BUT this isn't easy and has all kinds on legal and regulatory issues to work through (that at least here in Australia increase the cost of just getting started). Let alone the need to have more than a "gentle-persons agreement" about how the account manage and how automation and algorithms are tested so that we the account does disappear in a the Knight Capital way.

My main motivation for using an API is automation and the fact the I run a Linux workstation.

The FXCM interface looks interesting though I'll check it out. PipMeUp do you have any code you'd be willing to share?
  • #14
  • Oct 24, 2013 9:35am Oct 24, 2013 9:35am
For desktop, Dukascopy's Java API is free and most feature complete, easy to use, I have come across so far (have looked into IB, FastBrokers, LMAX, etc).

FIX is a mess; though it was invented "for electronic trading", it was not invented for automated trading (it predates automated trading) - it is a text based, human readable, protocol and processing of it is s l o w compared to a binary protocol that would suit computerised trading. It is still used just because it has been used sometime in the past. Totally bogus, totally inappropriate. Now, the good news is that there are free professional and open source FIX engines ready to use.
Return To Disorder
  • #15
  • Oct 24, 2013 9:50am Oct 24, 2013 9:50am
Quoting 9047
The FXCM interface looks interesting though I'll check it out. PipMeUp do you have any code you'd be willing to share?
I'm writing a rather big piece of software (http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...30#post6854630). I'm not willing to open source it. If you need some help to get started with the FXCM API no problem. Just ask. I'll certainly be more reactive and useful than their support.

I didn't write the orders opening/modification yet. I focused on the historical data download that I use to build all the charts. Then I wrote the GUI. Now I'm finishing writing a simulator engine.


If you want to download their historial data I can share my code. You have to download 600 ticks at a time in reverse order... It is a realy pain in the a$$! It makes no sense you spend days on that.
No greed. No fear. Just maths.
  • #16
  • Oct 24, 2013 10:03am Oct 24, 2013 10:03am
Quoting rockit
For desktop, Dukascopy's Java API is free and most feature complete, easy to use, I have come across so far
Looks good and well documented. but it seems like you can only use it inside the JForex application. Can it be used standalone?
No greed. No fear. Just maths.
  • #17
  • Oct 24, 2013 1:29pm Oct 24, 2013 1:29pm
Quoting PipMeUp
{quote} Looks good and well documented. but it seems like you can only use it inside the JForex application. Can it be used standalone?
Yes it can; and afaik it now can also provide charts and stuff.
Return To Disorder
  • #18
  • Oct 24, 2013 5:30pm Oct 24, 2013 5:30pm
Quoting PipMeUp
{quote} I'm writing a rather big piece of software (http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...30#post6854630). I'm not willing to open source it. If you need some help to get started with the FXCM API no problem. Just ask. I'll certainly be more reactive and useful than their support. I didn't write the orders opening/modification yet. I focused on the historical data download that I use to build all the charts. Then I wrote the GUI. Now I'm finishing writing a simulator engine. If you want to download their historial data I can...
I'm working on a similar project. I've acquired historical data from Dukascopy and Integral. In short I've written a fetcher and ETL system to download, process and load the tick data files into an indexed binary file (I'm looking at using HDF5 but that takes time - so may not happen). I'm in the process of writing the analytical framework and simulation engine. For visualisation I was going to take the short cut and just plot the result using Python or R. The key goal I have is to write a nice interface to analytical framework (algo part) so I can wrap and back it onto different platforms - easier said than done.

On the historical data front though I was talking to the Forex Tester folks and now you can access there Data Service for USD$299/year (VIP service level) and get yesterdays tick-data. You can sign up for a demo to try before you buy (but you have limited data access - time frames and duration).

The one thing that will never cease to amaze me is why these trading platform developers insist using there having there own (woefully inadequate dumbed down) programming languages! MQL4 is horrible useless and whilst it is an improvement MQL5 isn't much better.

Nice charts in the in that post you linked to are they yours?
  • #19
  • Oct 24, 2013 5:30pm Oct 24, 2013 5:30pm
Quoting rockit
For desktop, Dukascopy's Java API is free and most feature complete, easy to use, I have come across so far (have looked into IB, FastBrokers, LMAX, etc). FIX is a mess; though it was invented \"for electronic trading\", it was not invented for automated trading (it predates automated trading) - it is a text based, human readable, protocol and processing of it is s l o w compared to a binary protocol that would suit computerised trading. It is still used just because it has been used sometime in the past. Totally bogus, totally inappropriate. Now,...
I don't mind slow (Java's text processing is getting faster) if I can get the cost benefit of working to a standard interface that makes my system broker agnostic. Will definitely checkout the JForex API as well - the only saving grace of all that stuff being Java is that its not .NET (not a Java fan - I mainly work in Python, R, Javascript and C++). So ... "Hello Java its been a while "
  • #20
  • Oct 28, 2013 2:40pm Oct 28, 2013 2:40pm
Dukascopy desktop client takes a list of jar files and it will send to the server for validation.
+ need to have hacks to get working on Android.

Any platform can be hacked, but why we need to do that, why isn't open source and let us do what we want?! I bet even a child can make faster app as how Dukas implemented they Android app...
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