After years in trading, do you still believe in get-rich-fast BS? | Page 2 | Forex Factory

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After years in trading, do you still believe in get-rich-fast BS?

  • #21
  • Oct 15, 2013 4:27am Oct 15, 2013 4:27am
Quoting FerruFx
{quote} Keep in mind that you will succeed because of your trading skill ... nothing else. You are still arguing about a thread you didn't read. Do your job, then and only then be back to give your opinion ...

your explorer please, you keep telling me I am not right - prove me you're right
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #22
  • Oct 15, 2013 4:41am Oct 15, 2013 4:41am
  •  FerruFx
  • Joined May 2007 | Status: MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder | 6,542 Posts | Online Now
Quoting Eur Usd
{quote} your explorer please, you keep telling me I am not right - prove me you're right
1) I have nothing to prove

2) You didn't read the thread so you don't know what all is about

3) You are well known (by your many posts) to have a big problem in your emotions while trading ... so that thread isn't for you
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #23
  • Oct 15, 2013 4:42am Oct 15, 2013 4:42am
Quoting FerruFx
3) You are well known (by your many posts) to have a big problem in your emotions while trading ... so that thread isn't for you
I agree with this one. it gets better each time I fall (I get a new lesson), but I am still far from success
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #24
  • Oct 15, 2013 4:55am Oct 15, 2013 4:55am
  •  FerruFx
  • Joined May 2007 | Status: MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder | 6,542 Posts | Online Now
Quoting Eur Usd
{quote} I agree with this one. it gets better each time I fall (I get a new lesson), but I am still far from success
This is exactly how life is. Your skill improves with your failures. Keep going on and never give up.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #25
  • Oct 15, 2013 5:06am Oct 15, 2013 5:06am
Quoting FerruFx
{quote} This is exactly how life is. Your skill improves with your failures. Keep going on and never give up.
I am not giving up, but realised that I won't get rich in 2 years as I thought before. I keep practising till I get there. I am 34 now, I'll be happy if I get financially independent around 50 - when I'll be able to be mortgage free and part time job will be all I need
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #26
  • Oct 15, 2013 5:51am Oct 15, 2013 5:51am
Quoting FerruFx
{quote} If you are an experienced trader with a consistent trading method, you will find the answer here: http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=444377
'consistent trading method' is an interesting paradox.
  • #27
  • Oct 15, 2013 5:54am Oct 15, 2013 5:54am
made me laugh ;-)
http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...72#post6922572
Quoting 2+2=4ex
{quote} That's probably not going to happen. He's a very busy man. Busy hanging out with his friends: Bigfoot, Lochness monster, Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

hahaha
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #28
  • Oct 15, 2013 6:00am Oct 15, 2013 6:00am
I've been trading since 2010 with varying degrees of success. I started off with a demo for about a year while reading up as much as I could and talking to friends, colleagues and professors ( as well as doing my MBA thesis on technical trading).

I then fell into the following pattern when I started a real trading account:

  1. Start with small capital amount
  2. Make consistent gains of about 30% a week
  3. Because my absolute return was quite low I would increase my leverage and make riskier trades
  4. Would lose a % of my original capital and pull out to rethink and learn more

So I have held off from having a real account for a while now while still trading demo with high starting capital and making a (relatively small) % increase which allows me to realise a "sufficient" absolute profit.

Speaking to various traders and from my own experience you should be able to make 5% a month with minimal risk (if you are not looking for a quick win silver bullet trade).

Based on this I am planning on investing a large capital amount ($100k) and sticking to a 5% monthly return. Without compounding this amounts to $5k a month absolute return which is (even with tax) equivalent to what I earn as a director of a local branch of multinational. (I am based in Africa if you think I am being short changed)

I will post more when I actually start trading but the point is I think the only safe way to make money continuously on forex is to start with a large capital amount and accept a relatively small but stable return. the other thing is that while 5% a month is nothing compared to some stories of the multi-centennial returns boasted by some traders, a 60% return per year with minimal risk is actually fantastic compared to any other financial instruments.

So this is my major learning over the last 3 years. I would appreciate any feedback.

Cheers

  • #29
  • Edited Oct 16, 2013 5:11am Oct 15, 2013 6:07am | Edited Oct 16, 2013 5:11am
Quoting FerruFx
{quote} Keep in mind that you will succeed because of your trading skill ... nothing else. You are still arguing about a thread you didn't read. Do your job, then and only then be back to give your opinion ...
Returns are not indicative of "Trading Skill". Across this forum you will find many traders with a high level of expertise in charts, fundamentals and other esoteric approaches to trading. Their skill in execution, identifying an opportunity based on their rules and placing a trade in-line with their desired risk/reward parameters means only one thing... they can enter the market efficiently. Being a skilled golfer doesn't mean you are entitled to compete & win at the next open.

This myopic paradigm is repeated over and over by the gurus and authors on this subject as if you can somehow profit from being a disciplined soldier of the market and winning trades will be a by-product, I can tell you now this is utter nonsense and the sooner you realise it the better.
  • #30
  • Oct 15, 2013 6:26am Oct 15, 2013 6:26am
Guys, if anyone here can consistently get every month on average a positive return that is bigger than the standard deviation of the monthly returns you would be getting a monthly Sharpe Ratio greater than one. If you can manage to do that for three years, you should really look at setting up your own hedge fund as very few professional hedge fund managers can get that. Then you would eventually get rich, and faster than you would expect.


But the initial goal should not be getting rich fast. It should really just be consistently profitable, and money will follow.
  • #31
  • Oct 15, 2013 6:33am Oct 15, 2013 6:33am
Quoting Eur Usd
It's been nearly 3 years since I started trading - I started trading on demo for fun. I've been doing bets with few guys who will earn the most - demo account with 100k and we were going - I had no clue what it is about, so the account would melt in days if not hours - later on I've lost some money, I've had better and worse periods and at the moment over the 3 years I have about 2k less, but the positive side is the knowledge I gained, lots of knowledge, I could probably do workshops in trading psychology but I cannot help myself anyway, coming...

This thread screams neophyte and the ideas expressed are inconsistent with what it truly takes to be profitable.

If you're trying to get rich quick and you lack discipline and want to put in no effort; try the lottery. Much much better odds. Trading might not be for you. (2). If you prefer working a 'safe job' over trading; you must not believe in your system or yourself to follow through on trading, and again, trading may not be for you. It takes WORK, there is no such thing as 'get rich quick' because chances are.. you don't know how to hold onto a winning position! and definitely know how to hold a losing one.

For vast majority of front-office producers, trading is their life, 24 hours a day 7 days a week. There is no down-time. It takes constant work. If you aren't ready for that; trading is not for you and if you think for a moment you are going to out-produce on a part-time basis those who's lives revolve around when the market opens and when the FOMC comes out.. you are already living in LALA Land.
  • #32
  • Oct 15, 2013 6:42am Oct 15, 2013 6:42am
Quoting akhtergroup
{quote} If you're trying to get rich quick and you lack discipline and want to put in no effort; try the lottery. Much much better odds. (...) and if you think for a moment you are going to out-produce on a part-time basis those who's lives revolve around when the market opens and when the FOMC comes out.. you are already living in LALA Land.
Nice thread, I couldn't have said it any better...
  • #33
  • Oct 15, 2013 7:07am Oct 15, 2013 7:07am
Quoting Eur Usd
in one point in my life I got to point when I was just looking at chart and without drawing anything on chart I knew where the price will go, where to enter, when to exit - there was no s/l, only tp - in 2 months I did earn 700% with this method (trading on EU only) - I needed only 2-3 failures (which will happen sooner or later) to fall down of course I could count it: 500 after 2 months: 4000 after 4 months: 32.000 after 6 months: 256.000 and so on, but how far will your luck go. and if you say it is possible then show me your explorers - of course...
I recommend you to read "Trading in the Zone - Mark Douglas". It talks about the exact thing you mentioned. Its not abou luck or skills. Its about "beeing in the zone". The zone, according to Mark Douglas is a state of mind when you have absolutelly no fear. I just act, free of fear and worry. This is the state of mind you need in order to be that kind trader (that makes 700% in a couple of months). But because our emotional structure, its very very difficult to keep that state of mind after some losses. Once you "pop out" of the zone, its very difficult to come back.
  • #34
  • Oct 15, 2013 7:11am Oct 15, 2013 7:11am
Quoting BrazilPips
{quote} I recommend you to read "Trading in the Zone - Mark Douglas". It talks about the exact thing you mentioned. Its not abou luck or skills. Its about "beeing in the zone". The zone, according to Mark Douglas is a state of mind when you have absolutelly no fear. I just act, free of fear and worry. This is the state of mind you need in order to be that kind trader (that makes 700% in a couple of months). But because our emotional structure, its very very difficult to keep that state of mind after some losses. Once you "pop out" of the zone,...
I know this book and it changed me a lot, every single book I've read changed me a bit
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #35
  • Edited 11:34am Oct 15, 2013 8:13am | Edited 11:34am
Quoting Eur Usd
{quote} I know this book and it changed me a lot, every single book I've read changed me a bit
Be careful with the message in this book, I've read it myself a few times over the years and also watched his workshop How To Think Like a Professional Trader (http://markdouglas.com/workshops.html) where he explains his ideas clearer than the book in my opinion. The approach he explains makes perfect sense, it's all very logical and without question will make you a more disciplined traded BUT it does not guarantee the method you are using which underlies your strategy will make you money. Some of the concepts like trade in a series of trades, focus on the average and work on probabilities are great but unless the method you are applying these rules of execution to, actually has an edge.. you're just being a more efficient net loser (I speak from personal experience).

At one point I strongly advocated the Mark Douglas material as he appears to be a decent guy offering sensible advice in the world of sharks and scams but as a result of a better grasp on the subject and personal experience... I'm now of the belief that the material alone will not improve your chances of making money and could instead cause you to blindly persist in a disciplined process of losing money not accepting defeat. This could appear blasphemous to his supporters and I can respect that, I would have had a similar reaction prior to reaching this conclusion. Before you jump to his defence, it's worth considering how successful he has been himself as a trader. You'd assume as the empirical evidence of his own methods, he should have been reasonably successful as a trader but this does not seem to be the case as for most of his career he has either been a losing trader or a trading coach and he explains this clearly in his book.

(from Preface, Trading in the Zone)

1978, started trading, unsuccessful
1981, got a job as broker for Merrill at CBOT, "within 9 months, lost nearly everything I owned"
1982, started working on his first book "The Disciplined Trader..."
1983, left Merrill to start a consulting firm, "where I presently develop and conduct seminars on trading psychology...act in the capacity of trading coach", "as of this writing I have spent the last 17 years discussing the psychological dynamics behind trading."
2000, Trading in the Zone published

Mark Douglas is a writer, perhaps a trading psychologist or coach, but... I see no evidence of him being a successful trader.
  • #36
  • Oct 15, 2013 9:26am Oct 15, 2013 9:26am
Not every entrepreneur founds Google, Oracle, Walmart, Samsung becoming official billionaires overnight followings IPOs.

Many who try just reach a fraction of success of these behemoths, but still able to make comfortable living. They come there at different rate of speed. They may have rough patches on the road. Some reach success only to have very hard landings later. Some recover, some do not.

Many, many more try every day and fail, try again and fail. Some give up going for relative security of trading their hard skill time for money. In doing so people also have different degree of success.

At the bottom you find homeless who are often dismissed as lazy or having chosen this way of life. While it might be true for some they are in the same category as employees who gave up on entrepreneurship only a level below. Meanwhile some are just trying to step up, but failing to reach consistency.

The folks just do not have a specialized forum to whine. May be they do at some entrepreneurship or employment forum calling both BS. I do not know.

Just got to remember that in your safe job and career you actually work for someone who found ways to overcome trading time for money limit. Accepting the job you are placing trust in their ability to continue successfully doing so in order for them to need your time and you being able to have a bite.
  • #37
  • Oct 15, 2013 9:41am Oct 15, 2013 9:41am
Quoting TranceTrader
Mark Douglas is a writer, perhaps a trading psychologist or coach, but... I see no evidence of him being a successful trader.
You do not feel that the professor who taught you a business course is somehow not qualified just because he has no conglomerate of his own.

You do not feel that the professor who taught you a chemistry course is not qualified or puts you on the wrong path just because he is not a renown scientist.

Then few of those who took the courses establish conglomerates, but many more do not. Few students become Nobel laureates, but the majority do not. Different people with the same knowledge base, have different degrees of success. It all depends upon how they decide to proceed forward with it.

What is you point?
  • #38
  • Oct 15, 2013 9:59am Oct 15, 2013 9:59am
Quoting grin
You do not feel that the professor who taught you a business course is somehow not qualified just because he has no conglomerate of his own.(...) What is you point?
I don't think TranceTrader tried to say Mark Douglas was not qualified, just said that he didn't have relevant trading experience.

The same way, nobody would hire a business professor to become a business manager if the professor didn't have any relevant business management experience. Until he has the experience, he is only a good business professor.
  • #39
  • Oct 15, 2013 10:26am Oct 15, 2013 10:26am
I believe in a "get rich fast", despite having a small loss(no mentionable profit generations so far after 2.2 years of trading). Why? Because the endgame big dogs / champions think different. They share certain similar mindset/attitude with each-other. I am pretty sure you have heard of terms like asperger before. It often goes hand in hand with the urge to control(found in many other disorders as well). Controlling immediately translates to the urge of exploiting flaws when it comes to financial markets. Quants are an example here. Think about the above for a minute.
  • #40
  • Oct 15, 2013 11:09am Oct 15, 2013 11:09am
Grin I think you are confusing two very different things.

Mark Douglas does not claim to be a professor educating you on the basic concepts of the subject for you to interpret and expand upon, quite the contrary. He specifically states that if you follow his methods, you will make all the money you want, he uses these exact words in his material. My contention with this is as follows, if he can make such a statement... then why has he not done so himself?

Again it's worth noting that I do believe he is sincere in his attempt to make people better operators and control their emotions BUT no amount of procedural efficiency or mental discipline will turn a fundamentally losing method into a winning one... you're just becoming a more disciplined alchemist.

Quoting grin
{quote} You do not feel that the professor who taught you a business course is somehow not qualified just because he has no conglomerate of his own. You do not feel that the professor who taught you a chemistry course is not qualified or puts you on the wrong path just because he is not a renown scientist. Then few of those who took the courses establish conglomerates, but many more do not. Few students become Nobel laureates, but the majority do not. Different people with the same knowledge base, have different degrees of success. It all depends...
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