USDJPY spread during NFP news release last Friday 06/09/13 | Forex Factory

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USDJPY spread during NFP news release last Friday 06/09/13

  • #1
  • First Post: Sep 8, 2013 2:22am Sep 8, 2013 2:22am
Hi All,

I am looking for help, I have a dispute with my broker over their wide spread during the NFP new release last Friday, they widened the spread on my account to 45 pips on the USDJPY stating this was a worldwide event and not just them making this happen.

I have been in email contact with another trader who traded the NFP and was at his computer when the news was released, he says his broker only spiked his spread by 6 pips, so I am looking for feedback from other trades you might have traded the NFP.

My broker claims that 45 pips was what all brokers were charging their clients worldwide and this was governed by the liquidity providers during the NFP news release due to lack of liquidity in the market and therefore was not under their control and they were not to blame.

I want to find out if they are telling the truth, I have asked my friend if he can get his broker to put in writing that their maximum spread was only during the new release it may turn out that 6 pips might be a little narrow and it might turn out to be nearer 20 pips, which would still be alright, I just want to prove that 45 pips was not the worldwide market standard, which my broker is claiming.

Regards

RT
Some people say I'm lucky, but the more I practice the luckier I get
  • #2
  • Sep 8, 2013 2:38am Sep 8, 2013 2:38am
  •  FerruFx
  • Joined May 2007 | Status: MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder | 6,542 Posts | Online Now
Quoting Robot Trader
Hi All, I am looking for help, I have a dispute with my broker over their wide spread during the NFP new release last Friday, they widened the spread on my account to 45 pips on the USDJPY stating this was a worldwide event and not just them making this happen. I have been in email contact with another trader who traded the NFP and was at his computer when the news was released, he says his broker only spiked his spread by 6 pips, so I am looking for feedback from other trades you might have traded the NFP. My broker claims that 45 pips was what...
Nothing shocking here. That's a common practise.
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #3
  • Sep 8, 2013 2:55am Sep 8, 2013 2:55am
Quoting FerruFx
{quote} Nothing shocking here. That's a common practise.
Thank for your reply, I no spiking the spread is a common practice, I see it happen all the time. What I want to find out is was 45 pips the market standard for the NFP news release, did my broker have no other option than to widen my spread by 45 pips. If it turns out that 30 pips was from the liquidity provider and 15 pips was added by my broker then I can show that they have manufactured the spread in my account.

I have it in writing from them that they only passed on the spread from their liquidity provider and I would have been given a 45 pip spread regardless of whichever broker I was using, because it was a worldwide standard at the time of the news release.
Some people say I'm lucky, but the more I practice the luckier I get
  • #4
  • Sep 8, 2013 3:23am Sep 8, 2013 3:23am
Quoting Robot Trader
Hi All, I am looking for help, I have a dispute with my broker over their wide spread during the NFP new release last Friday, they widened the spread on my account to 45 pips on the USDJPY stating this was a worldwide event and not just them making this happen. I have been in email contact with another trader who traded the NFP and was at his computer when the news was released, he says his broker only spiked his spread by 6 pips, so I am looking for feedback from other trades you might have traded the NFP. My broker claims that 45 pips was what...

tell me the broker's name. can pm me the name as well.

Most broker known as market maker tend to widen their spread at least 20 pips ahead or during a major news announcement. -> This is quite manipulative, as most broker don't have a guaranteed stop loss. And they are really just waiting to see you max out your leverage by bringing a trade into a news environment such as NFP, ECB, FOMC and such.

This is why don't ever fall for leverage or bonuses, because it only takes 1 news environment to margin call most newbie trader. Lucky times you might be in the flow of the breakout and trend, but sadly 80-90% of the times, most retail traders are trapped in leverage by bringing a trade into news.

This is why most professionals do not take a trade before the news, all positions are break even or trailed out to main support/resistance at the break out point..

Why? Most stop losses and buy stop or sell stop orders are held there, so during news, chances are most of the time orders may get a tick there or tripped onto the stop losses or buy sell stop. If your broker are dealing with major tier 1 banks, your liquidity should be decent, spreads may wider but merely most times below 10 - 5 spreads and that only last a short while.

However, market maker is the one that makes the market and give quotes to their clients. So within the first few minutes up to 15 minutes, they can be really not in sync with the market especially when they have problem hedging their own positions against the world and their clients.

quotes are known to spike up or down during within the first 1-5 minutes if the data seems to be mixed or its held at a major support/resistance zone. so for NFP on friday, what i saw my on my USDJPY was it spiked to 99.80 before breaking the main support on 99.50. I placed my sell stops below 99.49 and 99.40, and 99.40 got slipped into 99.20 instead as the market tick misses and no seller are quick enough to give me that contract. So apparently at 99.20, it seems there's a stop loss or seller there, and i received my next quote there instead. Which is why when you see on NFP 1 hour closing, it closed somewhere around there on the 1st hour although it spiked down to 98.90 zone before retracing to 99.27 and found resistance on pull back 38.2 region before continuing the trend direction.

So its a gamble that traders takes their positions into a news environment. if your stop loss is very closed to a major news such as NFP which u should learn it by hard now as a school fee for experience. Most trader are advised not to take a position or have their stop loss moved to important level of support/resistance. If it meant to break, stop loss are meant to take.

For example, if i have a buy 99.60, with a stop loss at 99.40. just ahead of news. The market may not stop me out at 99.40 despite i placed my stop loss there. it can go lower or to 99.20 and i can suffer another 20 more pips losses as that's the place my broker managed to get me out from there to find a buyer for me at 99.20 as i dumped my sell.

There's simply no point to take against your broker, you should find another ideal broker instead. As part of their slippage policy and etc, they would already protect themselves on this clause and your negligence not to know or find out or read.

Your broker added 15pips to buffer themselves or hedge themselves so they can exit for themselves too.
  • #5
  • Sep 8, 2013 3:49am Sep 8, 2013 3:49am
Quoting 5percent
{quote} tell me the broker's name. can pm me the name as well. Most broker known as market maker tend to widen their spread at least 20 pips ahead or during a major news announcement. -> This is quite manipulative, as most broker don't have a guaranteed stop loss. And they are really just waiting to see you max out your leverage by bringing a trade into a news environment such as NFP, ECB, FOMC and such. This is why don't ever fall for leverage or bonuses, because it only takes 1 news environment to margin call most newbie trader. Lucky times you...
Thank you for your reply, however my case is somewhat different than the one you describe, I have a pro account with my broker and pay them an up front commission to obtain the best possible spread from them (supposedly direct from their liquidity provider) which is normally 0.3 USDJPY. I have been holding trades fully hedged for several months and slowly getting out of them at key support and resistance levels, so at the time of the new release it was not an SL being hit causing me a problem, but the 45 pips widening of spread.
Some people say I'm lucky, but the more I practice the luckier I get
  • #6
  • Sep 8, 2013 4:45am Sep 8, 2013 4:45am
Quoting Robot Trader
{quote} Thank you for your reply, however my case is somewhat different than the one you describe, I have a pro account with my broker and pay them an up front commission to obtain the best possible spread from them (supposedly direct from their liquidity provider) which is normally 0.3 USDJPY. I have been holding trades fully hedged for several months and slowly getting out of them at key support and resistance levels, so at the time of the new release it was not an SL being hit causing me a problem, but the 45 pips widening of spread.

I also trade with a pro account, similar to yours. But u must know ur dealing with a broker not an exchange, there's no guaranteed stop or even order entries.

There's no 100% even if you are the VIP account, even if we deal more than 400-500 lots per month on an avg acc, the broker cannot makes the market unless they are market maker. During that NFP, my broker's spread i can't recall my broker having widening spread though as its within 1 minute or seconds that it spike up and down, my broker didn't widen the spread 1 -5 before the news release. However, previously the bucket shops brokers i deal with before all have these 20-40 pips spread issue.

So how was the spread an issue to you? when it merely last few minutes at most if its not your stop loss that gives way? You are worried that you can't spot the direction?

Frankly speaking most high impact environment unless its really just 1 directional within 1 second, unlike the earlier NFP up then down, no one in the world can really knows the current quote at that split seconds which explains the spread widen even by the liquidity provider.

Most of them have to wait at least 1minute to actually know where the market is likely to head. even during ECB conference at times, it can shoot up 100-150 1st 5minutes and 200 pips the next 5 minutes.

So i don't quite get it that you are saying there's spread issue if it only last awhile. which is a common practice.
  • #7
  • Sep 8, 2013 4:52am Sep 8, 2013 4:52am
Quoting Robot Trader
{quote} Thank for your reply, I no spiking the spread is a common practice, I see it happen all the time. What I want to find out is was 45 pips the market standard for the NFP news release, did my broker have no other option than to widen my spread by 45 pips. If it turns out that 30 pips was from the liquidity provider and 15 pips was added by my broker then I can show that they have manufactured the spread in my account. I have it in writing from them that they only passed on the spread from their liquidity provider and I would have been given...
not entirely true, my broker didn't have such gaps of spread during that NFP.

perhaps that time, my LP is decent/cool enough, and ur LP happened to panic/worry so they wider their spread 1st. Who knows, another time u might not get the issue, and my LP will get the issue.

Or perhaps, its not the LP but ur broker that's giving ur the spread as they wanted to wait till the direction is clear before subsiding the spread to normal.

Generally speaking, spread gaps are quite normal. Only way is to accept the situation and outcome, enhance the risk management or methodology to reduce our risks and fine tune our own approach in this kind of environment.
  • #8
  • Sep 8, 2013 5:52am Sep 8, 2013 5:52am
5%

In response to your earlier 2 posts

I also trade with a pro account, similar to yours. But u must know ur dealing with a broker not an exchange, there's no guaranteed stop or even order entries.

I was not opening or looking to close trades during the NFP, I was not trading the news, I had trades already opened in my account which I had been carrying fully hedged and paying interest on for several months, with no problem. Then when the NFP news was released the spread increased from 0.3 pip = $3.00 per full lot to 45 pips = $450.00 per full lot, this had a major affect on my equity requirement in my account, 100 lots opened went from $13,500 (0.3 pip spread) to $45,000 (45 pips spread)

While this spread only happened for a short few seconds and went back to 0.3 pip it hate up the equity in my account and caused trades to close, so was the ask and bid 45 pips apart for every broker or just mine, if they put a buffer on the normal spread because they were worried which way the market was heading was not relevant in my case, because I was not looking to open or shut trades, my trades were fully hedged and long running earning the broker a good interest every month (I was an existing customer). I got caught up in a liquidity squeeze from which I was not looking to trade or benefit from, so the main issue for me is was the ask and bid really 45 pips apart from the brokers liquidity provider, if it was not, then the broker adding a buffer to the spread causing my trades to close was out of order considering my trades were several months old and I am a long standing client with the same broker for many years.
Some people say I'm lucky, but the more I practice the luckier I get
  • #9
  • Sep 8, 2013 9:12am Sep 8, 2013 9:12am
Quoting Robot Trader
5% In response to your earlier 2 posts I also trade with a pro account, similar to yours. But u must know ur dealing with a broker not an exchange, there's no guaranteed stop or even order entries. I was not opening or looking to close trades during the NFP, I was not trading the news, I had trades already opened in my account which I had been carrying fully hedged and paying interest on for several months, with no problem. Then when the NFP news was released the spread increased from 0.3 pip = $3.00 per full lot to 45 pips = $450.00 per full lot,...

try to read their policy and agreement, the one u agreed upon opening account. Get your account manager to address to you on this problem. if response are negative and poor.

take it to FPA and see how it goes.

Personally, i still think that your leverage was the problem that couldn't withstand this situation. Perhaps in normal situation, your current exposure of leverage is fine. As technically speaking, if you are long, you will be -45 pips at that time. and short also -45 pips at that time.

even if you are break even balance. you will be about -90 pips on avg on per hedge? So question would be what was your on going equity/balance. and current margin exposure + free margin.

Normally, for instance, 100k account, 1 lot trade maybe takes about 1500 margin if it's just taking on live, and have a free 98500 free margin if it's only 1 lot. so probably was some of your trades are under-water on avg. Despite you have swap carried.

That knock out takes 1minute to close your trade, and to me 45 pips is a little extreme. even the shittest market marker i seen so far is about 20-25. And during NFP i didn't received such spread despite i am on ECN PRO account with 0.0-0.5 spread as well.

So if they neglected you, just go to FPA and lodge a complaint.
  • #10
  • Sep 8, 2013 8:16pm Sep 8, 2013 8:16pm
Quoting 5percent
{quote} try to read their policy and agreement, the one u agreed upon opening account. Get your account manager to address to you on this problem. if response are negative and poor. take it to FPA and see how it goes. Personally, i still think that your leverage was the problem that couldn't withstand this situation. Perhaps in normal situation, your current exposure of leverage is fine. As technically speaking, if you are long, you will be -45 pips at that time. and short also -45 pips at that time. even if you are break even balance. you will...
Hi 5%

Thank you for your time and advice and I have sent you a PM, but cannot attach charts to a PM so will attach to this thread.

Not sure I understand the logic of your Long -45 pips and Short -45 pips equaling -90 pips on a fully hedged position, my understanding would be that the -45 pips would remain static because both the Long and Sell are moving in the same direction. Therefore it can only ever be the widening of the spread that can create a margin call on a fully hedged position.

With respect to margin requirement for the open lots, if the Buy 1 lot = 1500 of my margin and I opened a Sell 1 lot = 1500, with my broker the margin requirement becomes zero (one trade cancels out the other regarding margin requirement) and not 3000 like many brokers, so when a position in my account is fully hedged I have no margin eating into my equity which allows me to trade other pairs while waiting for my hedged trades to reach levels of support and resistance where I feel I can start to reduce my lot size exposure by closing some lots, which would then require margin from my account, because the trades would not be fully hedged.

Yes account equity is important, but how much do you need, I could have had 3 times more equity and the spread spike could have been 150 pips (and not the brokers alleged 45 pips) and I would have lost 3 times more money. I never expected a spread widening of such magnitude on major currency traded pairs and I want to find out if my broker have widened the spread at their own will or they had no control over it.

I have attached 2 screen shots showing where my Buys and Sells were closed, on the EURJPY M1 chart there is a distance of 77.3 pips between where the buys and sells were closed, so if they closed simultaneously with no slippage the spread for the pair would have been 77.3 pips wide. You will also notice that the Sell trade closed at 131.200 some 29.3 pips above the 1 minute candle high, which suggests my broker had already widened the spread prior to the NFP news release (this could be my brokers spread buffer or maybe my broker had no control over this and this 29.3 pips was set by the liquidity provider) when the market moved down my broker must have kept the 131.200 level static and widened the spread in the direction of the move, which resulted in a very wide spread of 77.3 pips (this would require an equity requirement of $773.00 per 1 lot traded), my account equity could not handle such deliberate market manipulation and my trades started to close.

While it would not show direct spread, I would be interested in the Open, High, Low & Close prices of the NFP one minute candles for the EURJPY and USDJPY within your account or anyone else reading this thread. If they differ greatly from mine then it would show not all brokers executed the same spread during the NFP news release.

Regards

RT
Attached Image(s) (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: usdjpy nfp m1 chart.png Size: 164 KB
Click to Enlarge Name: eurjpy nfp m1 chart.png Size: 163 KB
Some people say I'm lucky, but the more I practice the luckier I get
  • #11
  • Sep 8, 2013 11:07pm Sep 8, 2013 11:07pm
Haha ,same for me here. Buy stop at 98.80 SL at 98.60 but system SL for me at 98.10. Checking with my broker since last friday , waiting for their reply now
  • #12
  • Sep 9, 2013 12:15am Sep 9, 2013 12:15am
Quoting tohalan
Haha ,same for me here. Buy stop at 98.80 SL at 98.60 but system SL for me at 98.10. Checking with my broker since last friday , waiting for their reply now
I am only really looking at the 1 minute candle which followed the news, the low of that candle was 98.997 (with my broker) and the Ask price of any spread is always recorded has the low of the 1 minute candle, the broker cannot help but show a record of that part of the spread.

So if your Buy Stop was filled at 98.80 your SL of 98.60 should not have got hit until 2013/09/06 15:03 according to the chart that I posted which is 93 minutes after the new release, PA never got down to 98.10 (not sure what system SL means)

Can you please share the Open, High, Low and Close levels of your brokers 1 minute candle, which followed the news it will be a time closing with 30, but it will depend on your brokers server time, at the time of the NFP news release my brokers server time was 13:30

Regards

RT
Some people say I'm lucky, but the more I practice the luckier I get
  • #13
  • Sep 9, 2013 1:27am Sep 9, 2013 1:27am
Thanks for the sharing, my mistake on the numbers.
Buy stop at 99.80 & stop loss at 99.60.
System SL means my metatrader stop loss for me at 99.10
  • #14
  • Sep 9, 2013 1:27am Sep 9, 2013 1:27am
Mine broker: Time, Bid, Ask, ms since last tick, +/- pips
I couldn't find anything above 4 pips.
High = 99.893 Low = 98.801

12:29:50;99.72;99.759;250;-0.019
12:29:50;99.732;99.765;249;0.012
12:29:50;99.736;99.775;297;0.004
12:29:50;99.777;99.809;203;0.041
12:29:52;99.749;99.783;1310;-0.028
12:29:52;99.738;99.777;250;-0.011
12:29:52;99.736;99.775;296;-0.002
12:29:53;99.727;99.766;499;-0.009
12:29:53;99.72;99.759;312;-0.007
12:29:53;99.732;99.771;250;0.012
12:29:54;99.767;99.806;343;0.035
12:29:54;99.777;99.811;265;0.01
12:29:54;99.777;99.8;234;0
12:29:55;99.777;99.796;312;0
12:29:55;99.777;99.795;250;0
12:29:55;99.76;99.793;499;-0.017
12:29:56;99.757;99.796;546;-0.003
12:29:56;99.735;99.774;250;-0.022
12:29:58;99.737;99.776;2012;0.002
12:29:58;99.758;99.797;296;0.021
12:29:58;99.766;99.805;0;0.008
12:29:59;99.761;99.8;515;-0.005
12:29:59;99.768;99.807;297;0.007
12:30:00;99.777;99.816;811;0.009
12:30:00;99.739;99.778;249;-0.038
12:30:01;99.881;99.901;297;0.142
12:30:01;99.893;99.908;265;0.012
12:30:01;99.685;99.724;250;-0.208
12:30:01;99.315;99.354;249;-0.37
12:30:02;99.299;99.338;297;-0.016
12:30:02;99.257;99.296;249;-0.042
12:30:02;99.196;99.213;453;-0.061
12:30:03;99.185;99.204;312;-0.011
12:30:03;99.123;99.162;546;-0.062
12:30:04;99.036;99.075;1107;-0.087
12:30:05;99.037;99.076;499;0.001
12:30:06;99.007;99.008;858;-0.03
12:30:06;99.036;99.075;546;0.029
12:30:06;99.016;99.017;250;-0.02
12:30:07;98.884;98.923;1108;-0.132
12:30:08;98.946;98.957;249;0.062
12:30:08;98.947;98.986;250;0.001
12:30:08;98.956;98.995;249;0.009
12:30:09;98.934;98.938;359;-0.022
12:30:09;98.972;98.996;250;0.038
12:30:09;98.985;99.015;0;0.013
12:30:10;98.961;99;717;-0.024
12:30:10;98.969;99.007;297;0.008
12:30:10;98.978;99.001;249;0.009
12:30:10;98.978;99.005;250;0
  • #15
  • Sep 9, 2013 1:47am Sep 9, 2013 1:47am
Quoting Robot Trader
{quote} Thank you for your reply, however my case is somewhat different than the one you describe, I have a pro account with my broker and pay them an up front commission to obtain the best possible spread from them (supposedly direct from their liquidity provider) which is normally 0.3 USDJPY. I have been holding trades fully hedged for several months and slowly getting out of them at key support and resistance levels, so at the time of the new release it was not an SL being hit causing me a problem, but the 45 pips widening of spread.
sorry to hear of your troubles, a couple of points come to mind....

1) you will not win the argument with your broker, they have already set the defenses running against you in their responses so get a new broker, even if you prove them wrong why would you want to stay with them?

2) for your own information get the spreads from bloomberg who have one of the largest LP pools going and their ticks and spreads are pretty much the defacto for dispute resolution and to be honest 45 pips is way of the charts

3) I don't know your trading style but if you are running fully hedged positions for months, and then suddenly a 45 pip spread is an issue it sounds like you are over leveraged or over margined in the account for good health.

just my opinion, but the key message is get a new broker, at the very least you don't believe what they are telling you.
  • #16
  • Sep 9, 2013 2:24am Sep 9, 2013 2:24am
Quoting ARTjoMS
Mine broker: Time, Bid, Ask, ms since last tick, +/- pips I couldn't find anything above 4 pips. High = 99.893 Low = 98.801 12:29:50;99.72;99.759;250;-0.019 12:29:50;99.732;99.765;249;0.012 12:29:50;99.736;99.775;297;0.004 12:29:50;99.777;99.809;203;0.041 12:29:52;99.749;99.783;1310;-0.028 12:29:52;99.738;99.777;250;-0.011 12:29:52;99.736;99.775;296;-0.002 12:29:53;99.727;99.766;499;-0.009 12:29:53;99.72;99.759;312;-0.007 12:29:53;99.732;99.771;250;0.012 12:29:54;99.767;99.806;343;0.035 12:29:54;99.777;99.811;265;0.01 12:29:54;99.777;99.8;234;0...
ARTjoMS

Thank you for the tick extract it is most helpful, could I please trouble you to post 12:30:10 through to 12:31 so that I have the full minute and could you please share your brokers name, PM me if you wish to keep this private.

Regards

RT
Some people say I'm lucky, but the more I practice the luckier I get
  • #17
  • Sep 9, 2013 2:47am Sep 9, 2013 2:47am
Quoting MaxDoom
{quote} sorry to hear of your troubles, a couple of points come to mind.... 1) you will not win the argument with your broker, they have already set the defenses running against you in their responses so get a new broker, even if you prove them wrong why would you want to stay with them? 2) for your own information get the spreads from bloomberg who have one of the largest LP pools going and their ticks and spreads are pretty much the defacto for dispute resolution and to be honest 45 pips is way of the charts 3) I don't know your trading style...
1) you will not win the argument with your broker, they have already set the defenses running against you in their responses so get a new broker, even if you prove them wrong why would you want to stay with them?

Up until now I have not had any real problem with my broker and the amount involved is such that I will not just walk away from it if they have cheated me, whether I continue to use them will depend on how they treat me should I be able to disprove their 45 pips spread claim.

2) for your own information get the spreads from bloomberg who have one of the largest LP pools going and their ticks and spreads are pretty much the defacto for dispute resolution and to be honest 45 pips is way of the charts

Thank you for the advice, I am hopefully going to find out who their liquidity provider is for their client MT4 feed and then try and find other brokers that use the same liquidity provider, so that I can compare spreads.

3) I don't know your trading style but if you are running fully hedged positions for months, and then suddenly a 45 pip spread is an issue it sounds like you are over leveraged or over margined in the account for good health. just my opinion, but the key message is get a new broker, at the very least you don't believe what they are telling you.

I guess this could be truth but when the spread is only 0.3 to 4 at the most, most of the time, I never felt my broker would widen the spread to 45+ pips. It is like someone opening a 120 lot trade without your knowledge and letting it run 45 pips, you would be up to $54K DD with no ability to close the position
Some people say I'm lucky, but the more I practice the luckier I get
  • #18
  • Sep 9, 2013 2:48am Sep 9, 2013 2:48am
See attachment for tick data.
Attached File(s)
File Type: txt USDJPY.arm249.txt   1.2 MB | 523 downloads
  • #19
  • Sep 9, 2013 3:29am Sep 9, 2013 3:29am
Quoting ARTjoMS
See attachment for tick data. {file}
Thank you
Some people say I'm lucky, but the more I practice the luckier I get
  • #20
  • Sep 9, 2013 6:51am Sep 9, 2013 6:51am
Quoting ARTjoMS
See attachment for tick data. {file}
ARTjoMS

I have taken the tick data and put it into an Excel spreadsheet, there are a couple of entries that have shown up where the spread is wider than that shown in the tick data calculation, which I have high lighted in bold.

Where these errors occur in the tick data I have noticed this ( ; ) symbol between the numbers rather than a dot, this could be causing a miss calculation. Do you know why the tick data would be presented with this ( ; ) symbol causing the error, because apart from these two entires all the spreads are below 4 pips for the full news release.

Regards

RT
Attached File(s)
File Type: xls USDJPY NFP Spreed.xls   46 KB | 521 downloads
Some people say I'm lucky, but the more I practice the luckier I get
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