The Club!

There is only one issue I have with your explanation and that is about looking for a divergence on a smaller time frame when you don't see it on the larger one.

I was always under the impression that what is taking place on the larger time frame, although it blurs the time period and price range in which it should happen, it is more superior than the smaller time frame.

Here's an example of what I mean...

Let's say we are looking for a bullish hidden divergence on a wave 4 on the H1 chart in order to gauge when would be a good time to enter a long position. That hidden divergence is not visible on the H1 chart yet, but we start to see it on M15. At this point, is it not wise to wait until it manifests on H1 before pulling the trigger?

Another example which is independent of any EW counts...

I am long a currency pair based on bullish divergence on H1 and it has moved in my favour. My target is the next bearish divergence I see on H1.
The M15 chart is showing a bearish divergence, but the divergence indicator on H1 is not.
Normally if I took my trade based on the H1 time frame, I would not be concerned about any divergences on M15, but rather wait for a divergence signal on H1 or H4... or maybe even on daily. Is that not correct?

P.S. Congrats on making the 5th

Hi PT,

the higher the TF the bigger the swing.

OK, let us say you see divergence on 15min, but not yet on 1h, that can have two reasons:


a) the wave is not yet in a wave 5 on 1h TF

b) the wave is too short for a 1h TF


Especially when scalping on low TF, we have oftentimes the problem, that we do lookm at too high TF. Hence the suggestion with the 120-140 bars.




OK, next: (take it as explaining example)


imagine a wave 5 of 5 of 5


the last 5 you may see with divergence on 1h TF

the middle 5 you may see divergence on 15 min

the first 5 you may see divergence at 5min TF



ideal trade would be:

wait for divergence on 1h

then wait for divergence to occur on 15 min

then time the trade on 5 min



when you trade this example, it is wise to close 1 part of the position after the 15min TF divergence has played out. The second part of the position then set to BE and try the 1h TF divergence play out


Think in EW terms:


what can come after a wave 5 of 5 of 5?

In bad case, an ABC-flat, where wave B takes out the SL r BE of your position.


Therefore it is much better to play it in the above mentioned way.


When you will play the divergence on 1h TF entirely, you should wait for divergence first to occur on 4h TF


Hope that helps

Thank you

It was a Pyrrhic victory

Due to fast changing weather conditions I had to leave back quite a lot of material. So I have to collect it the next days

Subwaves on small TF undergo many cycles until the bigger wave is build. So you will spot a lot of divergences on lower TF during the day.


So now, when a divergence in H1 gets visible, the wave 5 on that TF has started. But this wave 5 may contain subwaves on lower TF. So wait now, until on the next lower TF a divergence appears, too.

Thanks for the great explanation. It is exactly as I thought , but wanted to get a consensus on it as your first explanation was a bit vague regarding multiple time frame divergences.

So you are back home now, or just back down at wave 4?

...and why pyrrhic? Did you hurt yourself? or are you referring to the fact that you have to go back for your equipment?

Hello Dear FF Community,

I'm in the quest of setting-up "auto-pilot" on my trading account.
I've recently heard about a pack (cost $6,9995, $1000 upfront+12 monthly payments) supposed to fill the orders in an automated way, with a supposedly acceptable expected return. (sorry no figures yet)

I need testimonials of you, the community, seasoned traders, rookies, anyone who has already tried this or has currently already on-boarded the system, or is thinking about taking the step.

Has anyone here already heard about this pack ?

Name: the "Ultimate Traders Package on Demand" (UTPOD)
Promoting entity: Market Traders Institute, Inc. (MTI) (http://www.markettraders.com)
Selling entity: Next Step Financial Holdings inc. (http://www.nextstepfinancialholdings.com)
Product: Ultimate Traders Package on Demand (UTPOD).

The UTPOD is supposed to enable traders to utilize automated trading systems.
Since I know that already back in the 80's Goldman Sachs was the first to fire its whole floor of FX traders to implement automatic trading systems, I'd like to give an edge into as well, now that the technology seems to come down to retails. (and anyway, auto-bucks overnight while sleeping never hurt, at least as long more gains than losses)

If anyone have heard about this particular system / company, please let me know.
Write here and I'll follow-up from my notification tracker.

Off course if I take the steps with this pack I'll update here as well.

Many thanks to all for your kind input.
:nerd:

Careful. You're going to get suspended if you keep posting content that looks like advertising for a commercial product. I would delete those posts if I were you. Just some friendly advice.

this is a joke no? don't get suckered in..or did u mean this this pack????....http://www.ratpack.com/ click on one of the videos...yes i agree...doesn't sound to good...

Hello,

Absolutely not advertising, I can swear. Actually I really need to know if anyone already took the steps with them, before testing the pack.

Just to know if I'm going to send money to trash or if at least the stuff is able at least to pay-back the investment. Actually, if the stuff is at least capable of that, then I'll say it is not a scam.

But so far, unfortunately, doing my "due diligence" I haven't been able to find very good sounds about this pack. I'm actually even really about to classify as pure scam.

Trying last chance with a call to trading communities to make sure before final judgement, because I actually really would like to give a try to see.

And thanks for your friendly advice. No worries, we're a community here, and I believe it is always good to let all traders knows about traps, scams and good deals.

Cheers,

I figured I'd give you a heads up because you posted the same thing with links to a commercial product in multiple threads. That generates a red flag for the FF moderators and the self-appointed undercover cops they have roaming the threads in invisible mode. If one of them suspects you are spamming, they will suspend you. That's all I'm saying.

Anyway, regarding the product, if someone really had a great robot that would really make consistent profit in the long run, do you really think they would spend all their energy flogging it to retail traders? Of course not. They would take it to a big US bank and get millions for it in a few minutes together with a nice well-paid cushy job to maintain it and develop it further.

So yes... obviously a scam just like all the others.

ADD: Speaking of scams, be careful also of Forex brokers who offer deposit bonuses. Why would a good solid broker offer a deposit bonus? they won't. So why do some do it? The answer is simple... because they know you will never withdraw it as you will lose it all anyway. These are the kind of brokers who have their own trading desk and are counter party to your trades. Also known as bucket shops.

LOL

Pablo, man, come on, be serious please. I see it's not you about to trash $6,995.
Really need someone that knows a bit more about this stuff.

It's definitely possible to code conditional actions in trading, you surely have seen regular patterns, mechanical movements in trends, and cycles in your charts, no ?

So if you're able to analyse a chart and take a trading decision based on whatsoever (last high, last low, closing candles, higher high, lower low, MACD cycles, RSI, Parabolic SAR, etc...) then surely there is a logical decision tree behind that, in your mind, and so conditionals action with pre-set-up can be codded. not a big deal.

I'm just looking for pack that would at least make some small returns and give me some free time to have deep knowledge of the mql4/mql5 languages to start coding my own sequences. So tired of monitoring the screens, aren't you ? Charting to find the deals, okay, but then let the machine plays the sequence.

Never forget what Goldman Sachs did already in the 80's...swapped from lively merry bands of traders to automates.
GS never act without good $$$ reason.

Hey, 20 years after, why couldn't the smarts from retails take a bit of the game as well?

Cheers,

ok keep on coding when done...open up a life account with it and have a go...and let us all c hw things r going...no sweat...

MT4 and MT5 are just not capable enough to do such things... Neither is your PC.

How do you expect a PC with rinky dinky windows based software to perform at the same level as the bank's multi-million dollar trade analysis systems?

It's just not possible yet. You would need a processor farm just to handle the algorithms required to analyse all the chart patterns. An experienced trader can pick out a trading signal in a few seconds to a few minutes of visual analysis with or without some aids from technical indicators, but a robot would have to do millions, if not billions of mathematical calculations against a very complex algorithm just to get a mathematically generated representation of the visual pattern on a chart, let alone the calculations required to make the decisions. Today's trading robots are extremely complex and all they can do is scalp 1 to 10 pips during volatile events such as news releases. Even so, they are not based on chart patterns but rather they are fed the news releases and make scalp trade decisions based on the news data or certain key words uttered by politicians and central bankers.

Just to qualify what I have mentioned above, I have been developing financial software for more years than I can remember and have also made several attempts to write EAs for MT4. My conclusion is what I have written above. So unless you have a supercomputer at home and a programmer (or an entire team) guided by a trading guru, you're not going to make it happen. Maybe once the PC and it's operating system has evolved to a much more superior capability than it's present form... but not now.

Sure Pips, you're definitely right all the way. But was I was thinking, is that now, some of these codes may not be as much efficient as the new killers clever quantum mathematician are constantly developing for the to-big-to-fail...and that there must always bee some commercial ready to sell old codes down to retails. Surely the system won't be a killer, but at least may still be able to bring in a minimum of (automatic) gains, assuming taht the algo in it is not yet completely outdated.

That's the process with all technologies, first the bigs, then slowly down to retails. 20 years after it is time overdue now, no? That's how I was thinking.

I'm staring to see more and more of this kind of offers flashing from a bit everywhere, so, don't want to be the last to on-board. I don't believe in the ultimate pip killer now readily available to retails, but a least some auto pips with a positive return on the balance sheet, even if just a little. That little would remain a little I wouldn't have done since not in front of my screens.

You surely have also already heard about some of these packs as well, the ninja trader, zulu trader, trend jumper, etc...there are more and more every single day. And I'm trying to follow-up a bit on that. And hear what the communities think about.

I have the sentiment it may be worth having a look into. Off course, trading knowledge is still definitely mandatory to monitor the tool, and even more that this since come coding skills may be required as well to maintain and set-up the tool. Don't attempt to pilot a F1 if you can't drive off course.

As said, really tired of monitoring the screens. Would like to move on to push on "auto pilot" asap I've identified a target by charting. Then let the machine trail the sequence along the trend. For example, look at the NZDUSD recently on H1, wouldn't it be cool to have an automated sequence to hang the trend and trail it down from top to bottom end? Push on start around the 19th, after detection of possible reverse, then come back on Monday next to monitor possible trend direction change, no? Actually a respectable system should be expected to end by itself when detecting end of trend. (break of trend line, support, different levels, etc...)

You surely have already heard about the Sonic stuff here in FF, dedicated to coding. I have the sentiment that nowadays, automation is part of the tools a trader must master to ease his life.

Thanks for your comment

IMF's LaGarde: "And I'm crossing fingers for the eurozone..."
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-0...ingers-crossed

here we go....

01-08-13 08:38 AM

I was invited to attend a free Forex webinar conducted by MTI - Market Traders Institute out of Florida. While the presentation seemed somewhat professional, it all seemed too good to be true and reminded me allot of OTA's PTWs - Power Trading Workshops. In other words a lot of fluff and their product is very expensive.

So before joining them, I was wondering if anyone out there has had any experience with these guys. Pro/con I would like to hear it. There are a lot of gimmicks out there, I want to be sure this is not just another gimmicky program with no substance. They made some incredible claims with some huge numbers.

Thanks guys

Respondents:

01-08-13 01:48 PM

The odds of them being legit are extremely tiny. Not one vendor, will tech you a real edge. Some old methods maybe, not the current working ones.

When you see some great claims, run, it is almost 100% guarantee that it is fake.

01-08-13 03:56 PM

those who can-do,those who can't-teach

01-10-13 11:39 PM

I agree with Bob, "Those who can do, those who can't teach."

I did some fact finding on MTI and found that they have a very controversial history.

MTI sells a Forex course called The Ultimate Traders Package for around $6,000. A few years ago they were selling the same course for $3995. Inflation? Hardly. MTI according to reports, was previously selling their courses and getting the program financed through another party, however, MTI had so many chargebacks and cancellations and complaints that the lender they used at that time would no longer work with them

In the summer of 2011, MTI had a huge layoff and nearly went out of business.

The company founder Jared Martinez and his son Jacob were allegedly invloved ina money laundering scam a few years ago and had another company in Orlando that was closed down. It was a Forex Trading company.

And MTI had an office in Trinidad that was shut down about a year ago.

All of these trading schools leave a lot to be desired. They are big on hype and short on delivering any measureable results. Their courses are way too expensive for w hat you get out of it.

And the biggest issue I have is that they generally appeal to the naive looking for easy money. Forex is easy to get into and you will be told by MTI reps thatyou can open an account with a broker for as little as $50. They then tout the big 50-1 margin available to Forex traders and will tell you that Forex is the most liquid market; always a buyer and always a seller. The naivette love this stuff.

Anyone who understands Forex knows that Forex is extremely high risk and you need more than 16 video lessons and other training from companies like MTI to succeed.

Even Jared Martinez explains that as a experienced trader he lost over $400,000 in a short period of time. If an experienced trader can lose that much, what chance does a new trader have and why listen to a man who has lost over $400,000??? I don't get it.

It is estimated that more than 90% of the people who trade Forex lose money. The people who make money are the big players, banks and other insititutions and companies and traders with a lot more experience than buying and taking an overpriced Forex course.

In my opinion, stay away from MTI. There are plenty of good books available and a lot of free information on the internet. Also, look around in your area for a Forex meeting group, find someone who is successful and will work with you.

02-01-13 05:11 AM

Several weeks ago I was invited to one of their Free No Obligation Webinars via Schaeffers. Owing to the integrity of Bernie Schaeffer and figuring he was connected with these guys in some way, I figured they were legit and 90 mins and free, why not? Maybe I could learn something.

First of all, I received several calls from customer service people telling me that they were calling to help me log in to the Forex webinar, ok I figured, cool. My computer went down for perhaps two minutes, if that and I get a call back from someone who sounds frantic and wants to know what happened to me. I said, no big deal, my computer went down. This person sound irritated and agitated and made me feel like I did something terribly wrong. Hmmm. S I logged back in and waited. I should also mention that I was called one hour before the webinar started. I thought, they expect me to sit here for an hour and stare at this stupid screen?

Anyway, I got logged on and waited and did a few other things in the process. I waited and waited but they started late. The presenter comes on and says some people are joining late so their would be a delay. WHAT! I am waiting for nearly an hour and have to wait because some others are late? Like that is my problem!

It finally started about 15 minutes late so now I am waiting for 1 hr and 15 minutes. The presenter sounds very enthusiastic and goes over his background. He claims to be a trader and raves about his facebook page which is loaded with testimonials from so many happy students. The more I listened to this guy, the more he sounded like an Amway guy. It was so pollyanna-ish and gay.

Then he tells us that this presentation will cover MTI's product called The Ultimate Traders package. We are told that this company has been around for 18 years and then we see slides of a guy named Jared Martinez who supposedly wrote over 20 books and is a Forex guru. I just giggled and thought this is sounding more and more like Amway every second.

He then tells us the price of the program which is $6.995 and then goes back in to tell us how wonderful MTI is. Now I am thinking, this is suppsoed to be a webinar. So far it sounds like an infomercial, which was in fact what it turned out to be.

Eventually they got around to showing some charts and some very basic, and I mean grass roots basic technical analysis. I was under the impression that this presenter would be doing live trades during the live market. What he really did was show some basic techniques while the market was open. BIG DEAL!

Then he got back to hyping MTI and telling us how wonderful this company and the Forex market is and why we should go run to get our checkbooks or credit cards and sign up right away for this incredible, awesome training.

He said to leave our number and someone would call us. I figured, t hatis my cue so disconnected from the webinar and laughed for several minutes rehashing what I just went through when the found rang. It looked like a local number so curiously I answered. Turnes out it was MTI calling me back.

I say, "Jeesh I didn't know you guys where in my area!" They said,"we are not. We use a local number so it is easier for you to call us back." I think yeah right. You use al ocal number to sucker me to pick up the phone. If I say your number on my caller ID, i would have left it go into voice mail.

This guy was a tiger and really hussled me. He told me how great the course was and asked me what I LIKED BEST. I told him the best part was when I turned the stupid infomercial off.

This guy went on and on with his sales pitch. I told him I had an appointment, did not want to be rude but had to leave. He said, "No, no, no, wait a minute. While I have you on the phone, tell-me about yourself so when we speak again I can be better prepared to discuss yoru needs."

I think, "Say what?" "Didn't you hear me? I said I have to go and never said I wanted a return phone call. At which poing I hung up.

Then I think, thank God that is over. But the phone rings and it is a local number. I pick up and it is him again. I figure you got to be kidding me! He says, "Sorry we were disconnected.. I.."

I jump in and say, "We were not disconnected. I hung up because this conversation is over." He jumps right back into his sale pitch.

I hung up again. He called back and this time I let it go into voice mail.

This infomercial that they call a webinar was a total waste of time for me. It was just a sugar coated sales pitch and their people are rude. In checking around, I have talked with some people who have taken the course frm MTI, none are making money.

I went to the presenters facebook page and read a lot of incredible testimonials, however, I have to wonder if they are real or if they were just one time lucky trades. I see no information on average returns.

I have written to Bernie Schaeffer and told him that I am appalled at their association with this company and will never again attend one of their informercial webinars.

Another thing is that MTIs sales people are not too well educated in personal finance or investing. I asked the guy who called me about binary options and he said he never heard of them.

In summary, I like Bernie Schaeffer and I am happy with his service, not happy with MTI and their almost comedic style of offering forex education which is really just a sales pitch with very little if any useful information.

I would not recommend this company to anyone. I am trading options and happy. I may try forex and seek education, I assure you that it will not be from MTI.

02-02-13 11:45 PM

Appreciate the information on MTI dba as Next Step Financial holdings. Based on your information, it sounds like this would have made for a nice 1940s movie starring The Marx Brothers!
LOL!!!

u be the judge...i did a long time ago i'm just trying to prevent some aspiring trader loose twice from the get go....

If you are just looking for something to manage trades that you have already executed manually, I am sure you will find many out there for a very small fraction of that overbloated $6999 price tag.

woah

You owe me some dry cleaning expenses. I pissed myself laughing