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Why do people engage in self destructive behaviors?

  • #61
  • Apr 22, 2013 7:53pm Apr 22, 2013 7:53pm
Quoting stevexyg
{quote} They do this in an unstoppable rage until the enemy flee or are all slaughtered {image}. Below is modern soldiering. Do you see the difference? {image} We don't need to see a keyboard warrior we all know what they look like.
Attached Image


Attached Image
Time hides Nothing
  • #62
  • Apr 23, 2013 3:26am Apr 23, 2013 3:26am
Quoting Fudomyo
Projecting your personal beliefs or deficits on other people shows a lack of objectivity on your part. .
I used the term 'it sounds like' to deliberately avoid making that error.

To say I 'know nothing about you' is ridiculous, you've made a very personal lengthy and detailed post about your inner motivation and general attitude towards trading. That is what I know and that is what I commented on.

You can re-write the dictionary and history if you like but please from now on when you call yourself or other people warriors can you make it 'warriors'. Someone who overcomes adversity is not a warrior. You are just being a drama queen. You know what a warrior is I just showed you. Warriors kill other men in hand to hand battle, when you do that next time you are at your pc let us all know.
  • #63
  • Apr 23, 2013 4:28am Apr 23, 2013 4:28am
Steve, no ones ripping anyones guts out but the analogy is valid. Army drills are there to get a specific outcome in the field. The long-term effects are not what's important in the *analogy*.

The biggest problem with trading is that we're all hard-wired to have a narrative; or in other words, the results of our previous trades affect our current decisions. Logically you know that the outcome of this trade is in no way dependent on the last, but it's how we're wired. The only way I know to overcome this is to concentrate on the present, the job in hand, and yes, ignore the chatter in the background.

Mindfulness in a word.
  • #64
  • Apr 23, 2013 4:50am Apr 23, 2013 4:50am
This story was cited in another thread during a discussion of sabatoging behaviors seen in traders and the need for self awareness once found.....


The Scorpion and the Frog

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: " because I'm a scorpion, it's my nature
  • #65
  • Apr 23, 2013 4:56am Apr 23, 2013 4:56am
Quoting auxesis
Replies the scorpion: " because I'm a scorpion, it's my nature
Selfdestruction is not a human nature it's a subconscious disorder.
Anyway it goes hand in hand with fear of success.
  • #66
  • Apr 23, 2013 8:47am Apr 23, 2013 8:47am
Quoting fx111
Selfdestruction is not a human nature it's a subconscious disorder. Anyway it goes hand in hand with fear of success.
FEAR...as I suspected. The root of self sabotage may indeed be FEAR. This is one of our most primal emotions and (for lack of better terminology) is "hard wired" into all of us. Just like the BIOS of a computer. If fact, to continue the analogy, it is part of our BIOS.

They only way to turn it off is to "train" it off. But it must first be recognized for what it is.

I was a police officer in a former life and spent 15 years in SWAT. We actively trained with the presumption that when the "moment of truth comes" we WILL feel fear. We trained assuming that we will NOT be thinking clearly...there was a separate command staff to do that job. All we were trained to do was "react" in a certain "pre-trained" way so that the end result was anticipated. But we still felt fear. We were then taught to recognize our fear and revert to training in place of fear...in fact we USED our own fear to engage our training and NOT think.

Of course the circumstances are different in front of a computer, but the emotion of FEAR doesn't recognize that. To our brains, fear is fear. It doesn't matter if your are facing a wild man swinging a battle axe, or a tiger ready to pounce, or the potential loss of your investment. Your brain experiences fear and does what it was designed to do. It turns off all non essential programs and activates the most basic self protection...RUN or FIGHT.

To me, it seems more logical that we learn to recognize when fear starts (like the beginning of a trend), and take steps to turn off that trigger. That can be done in a number of ways:

  1. Have a pre thought out and rehearsed plan of action (or inaction)
  2. Use your recognition to refocus your frontal lobe through meditation or concentraion
  3. Step away from the computer and let your pre planned trading action run its course


I'm sure there are more techniques, but the point of the matter is that each of these is planned out well in advance and in the absence of this primal emotion. You cannot avoid fear, you can only recognize it and deal with it appropriately when it occurs.

  • #67
  • Apr 23, 2013 9:02am Apr 23, 2013 9:02am
Quoting triphop
The biggest problem with trading is that we're all hard-wired to have a narrative; or in other words, the results of our previous trades affect our current decisions. Logically you know that the outcome of this trade is in no way dependent on the last, but it's how we're wired. The only way I know to overcome this is to concentrate on the present, the job in hand, and yes, ignore the chatter in the background. Mindfulness in a word.
Yes.


gspajon, if you like Sun Tzu you might enjoy Takuan. He explains in much better detail the concept I was trying to convey.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...58#post5850958

All the best with your trades,

Fudo
  • #68
  • Apr 23, 2013 10:20am Apr 23, 2013 10:20am
Quoting triphop
Steve, no ones ripping anyones guts out but the analogy is valid. Army drills are there to get a specific outcome in the field. The long-term effects are not what's important in the *analogy*. The biggest problem with trading is that we're all hard-wired to have a narrative; or in other words, the results of our previous trades affect our current decisions. Logically you know that the outcome of this trade is in no way dependent on the last, but it's how we're wired. The only way I know to overcome this is to concentrate on the present, the job...
Honestly I havent found this to be a problem. You start with your experience and then you parcel the experience into a more objective framework and then use that objective framework. Theres no narrative involved, thats just like saying that trading is luck wny wouldnt I be able to learn a non-narrative method, just another skill..

Only if you dont want to think *why* your previous trade worked or not, then it becomes a problem. If you just use your visions inbuilt visual pattern recognition as your method of trading, then most likely it will pick up the wrong commonalities between trades and then it wont work. Thats why some objectivity is necessary, trust over time that ALL your experiences, along with your analysis, will result in a non narrative profitable form..... yummmmmm
  • #69
  • Apr 23, 2013 10:47am Apr 23, 2013 10:47am
Quoting triphop
Steve, no ones ripping anyones guts out but the analogy is valid. Army drills are there to get a specific outcome in the field. The long-term effects are not what's important in the *analogy*. The biggest problem with trading is that we're all hard-wired to have a narrative; or in other words, the results of our previous trades affect our current decisions. Logically you know that the outcome of this trade is in no way dependent on the last, but it's how we're wired. The only way I know to overcome this is to concentraete on the present, the job...
the one major problem with that is, there was no *analogy* offered. he didn't say being like a warrior, or analogous to being a warrior, or in line with the characteristics of a warrior. he said 'a successful warrior does neither' meaning either 'I am one' or 'you can be one' or both.

so does everyone here think the are what they think they are. or are you something else?
  • #70
  • Edited 12:44pm Apr 23, 2013 11:24am | Edited 12:44pm
Quoting stevexyg
{quote} . so does everyone here think the are what they think they are. or are you something else?
I would say yes to that from an egocentric perspective. I think the market is very much likened to that of a battlefield, one of the greatest in fact and so as a trader that would make me a soldier or warrior. My edge is my weapon and I must use this correctly (psychology/ training) in order to win and profit. I use it to beat those opposed to my position.
Time hides Nothing
  • #71
  • Apr 23, 2013 2:21pm Apr 23, 2013 2:21pm
Quoting CindyXXXX
{quote} I would say yes to that from an egocentric perspective. I think the market is very much likened to that of a battlefield, one of the greatest in fact and so as a trader that would make me a soldier or warrior. My edge is my weapon and I must use this correctly (psychology/ training) in order to win and profit. I use it to beat those opposed to my position.
I wonder what it is about War that attracts you to it so much that you decide to liken it to trading. Do you like the idea of being in a War, a soldier fighting for survival and winning out in the end, like Rambo. It's a silly daydream, life isn't a hollywood movie and real war is a dirty dirty business that should you experience it would change you forever. Trading is far more like a casino game or a football game than war. Yet for some reason some traders like to think of themselves as a big man on a battlefield. I think a lot of you have seen too many gung-ho Vietnam films personally. Still if it works for you why not.
  • #72
  • Apr 23, 2013 2:34pm Apr 23, 2013 2:34pm
Quoting stevexyg
{quote} I wonder what it is about War that attracts you to it so much that you decide to liken it to trading. Do you like the idea of being in a War, a soldier fighting for survival and winning out in the end, like Rambo. It's a silly daydream, life isn't a hollywood movie and real war is a dirty dirty business that should you experience it would change you forever. Trading is far more like a casino game or a football game than war. Yet for some reason some traders like to think of themselves as a big man on a battlefield. I think a lot of you have...
Hey Steve

I understand you are for some reason sensitive to the idea of war and such, maybe you have a personal link to real life war? I'm not sure mate. Personally as a trader I think of myself as a killer.. I need to... no mercy for the unprofitable.. I spent a long time feeling empathy for those I was better than but at the same time could not for the sake of my own survival waste my time trying to "help" them and sacrifice my own time and possibly my edge itself. It held me back for a long while.

I think it should not matter so much to YOU how I see the markets. That's what I think.

It does work for me, I find the idea fascinating and inspiring. It's just a metaphor man, get over it. If anything it is a steady place to rest ones mindset, like a calibrator for the mind. Helps to get in the zone.
Time hides Nothing
  • #73
  • Apr 23, 2013 2:58pm Apr 23, 2013 2:58pm
Quoting Starry
{quote} Honestly I havent found this to be a problem. You start with your experience and then you parcel the experience into a more objective framework and then use that objective framework. Theres no narrative involved, thats just like saying that trading is luck wny wouldnt I be able to learn a non-narrative method, just another skill.. Only if you dont want to think *why* your previous trade worked or not, then it becomes a problem. If you just use your visions inbuilt visual pattern recognition as your method of trading, then most likely it...
There's plenty of time yet

Either that or you're an outlier within an outlier, a literal one a million, in which case
  • #74
  • Apr 23, 2013 3:24pm Apr 23, 2013 3:24pm
Quoting CindyXXXX
{quote}It's just a metaphor man, get over it. If anything it is a steady place to rest ones mindset, like a calibrator for the mind. Helps to get in the zone.
Yeah agreed I just got wound up a bit and need to chill. Like you say if it gets you highly alert that's the end result we are all looking for, it's a strategy to keep you focused. Have close family and a work mate screwed up by forces life he's getting counseling now but never been directly involved, thanks for the concern fella. You have to say it's easy to become distracted like you did, it's natural to want to help others but when you treat this like any other job you realise need to get it done first and foremost and anything you do to help others just can't get in the way. Stay safe.
  • #75
  • Apr 23, 2013 4:42pm Apr 23, 2013 4:42pm
Quoting gspajon
{quote} FEAR...as I suspected. The root of self sabotage may indeed be FEAR.
as you say and have experience of when the shit hits the fan and your mind closes down its the training that kicks in. is it the same kind of fear we have when trading though? maybe its a bit more subtle and less debilitating, maybe the same fear but less intense? what about disassociation as a strategy? don't we feel fear because we are emotionally tied into the trade because as has been said we want to be proved right and we could loose not just face but also money here? so can we disconnect ourselves from the trading? can the result win or loose mean nothing to us? maybe we should forget about the result and just focus on executing the trading rules we have. we can't be fearful of an outcome if it doesn't really matter, if only the execution matters?

put another way, instead of trying to suppress the fear can we discard the reason it arises?
  • #76
  • Apr 23, 2013 5:23pm Apr 23, 2013 5:23pm
Quoting stevexyg
{quote} as you say and have experience of when the shit hits the fan and your mind closes down its the training that kicks in. is it the same kind of fear we have when trading though? maybe its a bit more subtle and less debilitating, maybe the same fear but less intense? what about disassociation as a strategy? don't we feel fear because we are emotionally tied into the trade because as has been said we want to be proved right and we could loose not just face but also money here? so can we disconnect ourselves from the trading? can the result win...
yeah im with you on this one Steve, I adopted a little mantra that I chant to myself, i'm not trying to win a trade anymore, that's not good enough, all that matters is that i get the big trade/trades of the week... any losses upto that point are irrelevant, they don't matter, and at the same time there is no point in closing early, they have no affect either.... All I need to do is keep churning out the rules repetitively until I catch the inevitable move.....

So now I have nothing left to fear, at least not something that comes at the end of a trade im taking.... if there was fear it would be that at the end of the week it didn't pan out (rarely happens)...
tradewith60
  • #77
  • Apr 24, 2013 8:37am Apr 24, 2013 8:37am
That sounds like a really effective approach D. I'm quite impressed that you chant and trade at the same time. I'm visualizing it as some sort of terraces inspired 'Come on you reds' type thing? Do you wave your scarf at the same time? Hand and knee clapping? It's got to be be more rewarding than shouting on bath city - I hope your win rate is better than theirs! But really it must set aside so many anxieties when taking and managing trades. It's an achievable strategy to focus on execution and have no hang ups about each trade especially when you have faith - maybe wrong word - you have trust in your trading because you know it works over time - if you execute correctly. But the other fear about being up at the end of the week...that's natural and more a fear of ending up in a ditch. Although I'm sure that is underrated.
  • #78
  • Apr 24, 2013 11:26pm Apr 24, 2013 11:26pm
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  • #79
  • Apr 25, 2013 9:32am Apr 25, 2013 9:32am
Quoting stevexyg
...what about disassociation as a strategy?
I think this is an excellent idea in theory, however in practice it is extremely difficult to do. Most disassociation I'm familiar with arises out of some emotionally traumatic event that causes the individual to "block out" the even entirely. To disassociate one's self from a trade is truly the goal of an "emotionless" trader.

Quoting stevexyg
...instead of trying to suppress the fear can we discard the reason it arises?
Again this would be a laudable goal and achievable in a very few individuals, and only after many years of experience, I would think. However, I think a more generally achievable idea is to refocus your "thinking" mind which automatically suppresses the fear instinct allowing you to once again concentrate more clearly and THEN follow your trading plan.

After several years of practice I believe this will naturally discard the reason one's fear arises with any given stimulus. The trick again is to quickly detect when fear begins to arise...the sooner the better. By rational recognition of this emotion it can be quickly reduced and controlled. The whole idea (for me anyway) has been to discipline myself to follow my rational trading plan more closely. This plan exists purely for the purpose of eliminating emotional or irrational decisions. The assumption being that if the plan is strictly adhered to, my trading will more closely match the mathematical projections of success.

All that being said, I have personally found that focusing my frontal lobe via mediation (for me personally I pray for wisdom), has helped over these past few weeks. I present this as an example of success, not as any religious argument for or against praying. However, I have found that on a purely objective basis, my self sabotaging behavior has diminished, both in frequency and duration. Is this God answering my prayer, or is this the physical manifestation of increased frontal lobe activity? You decide for yourself.

My conclusion? Perhaps prayer and meditation were instructions given to a developing race by a superior being to assist them in their development.
  • #80
  • Edited 2:59pm Apr 25, 2013 2:49pm | Edited 2:59pm
Quoting gspajon
{quote} I think this is an excellent idea in theory, however in practice it is extremely difficult to do. Most disassociation I'm familiar with arises out of some emotionally traumatic event that causes the individual to "block out" the even entirely. To disassociate one's self from a trade is truly the goal of an "emotionless" trader. {quote} Again this would be a laudable goal and achievable in a very few individuals, and only after many years of experience, I would think. However, I think a more generally achievable idea is to refocus your...
Either way you should end up fearless. It's good to hear you have results from your meditation practice, I'm sure that will help in other areas of your day too. In terms of suppressing fear I guess I'm coming at this from a different direction, I've read books that tell me the mind is an illusion and that the quiet mind means one unburdened by anxiety. I have accepted that and once you grasp the concept it's not actually that difficult to make the concept actuate a reality for periods in your day. This is a very subtle thing and it's possible you are describing what I think I'm describing. Is it suppression and discipline or actually dissasociation? I think I've confused myself, apologies. Now it's time to check out Pips Cruisers vids above, they look extremely interesting.

Edit - gspajon have you read Trading in the Zone? From memory there is a chapter on disposition/fear and origins in childhood.
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