Why do people engage in self destructive behaviors? | Page 3 | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

METHOD vs SYSTEM and the destructive EA 19 replies

People who don't know why it works.. 64 replies

Destructive Patterns in Trading 18 replies

Attachments: Why do people engage in self destructive behaviors?
Exit Attachments

Why do people engage in self destructive behaviors?

  • #41
  • Apr 21, 2013 6:03pm Apr 21, 2013 6:03pm
Quoting Pips_Cruiser
{quote} Hi Gerald. During medieval times, when I was going to college and one of my majors was psychology, we studied something called Operant Conditioning. It used concepts like positive and negative reinforcement to explain behavior patterns, and also to change those behaviors...
Thank you for this excellent explanation. THIS is the kind of stuff I was looking for. So your feeling is that we "bad trading habits" may be the result of "training" like that of Pavlov's dogs. Whether conscious or unconscious, we have received some form of positive reinforcement to create these habits. The natural conclusion of this is that it can be reversed, as long as we (I) consciously provide a form of self feed back in the form of positive reinforcement for the good habits and negative reinforcement for the undesirable habits.

I plan begins to develop in my head...

Thank you for this Pips Cruiser.
  • #42
  • Apr 21, 2013 7:10pm Apr 21, 2013 7:10pm
Quoting gspajon
{quote} Thank you for this excellent explanation. THIS is the kind of stuff I was looking for. So your feeling is that we "bad trading habits" may be the result of "training" like that of Pavlov's dogs. Whether conscious or unconscious, we have received some form of positive reinforcement to create these habits. The natural conclusion of this is that it can be reversed, as long as we (I) consciously provide a form of self feed back in the form of positive reinforcement for the good habits and negative reinforcement for the undesirable habits....
Correct. With this view of things we've been conditioned into repeating certain behaviors at a subconscious level. Pavlov's dogs are an example of Classical Conditioning, where an outside stimulus (a bell) becomes associated with a certain thing (food) and thereby elicits a response (salivating and drooling) even though the thing (food) is not present. With Operant Conditioning, we become conditioned at a subconscious level by the results of our behavior, whether positive or negative. Here's a short video that describes positive and negative reinforcement and punishment:

Inserted Video
  • #43
  • Apr 21, 2013 7:26pm Apr 21, 2013 7:26pm
Quoting Pips_Cruiser
{quote} Correct. With this view of things we've been conditioned into repeating certain behaviors at a subconscious level. Pavlov's dogs are an example of Classical Conditioning, where an outside stimulus (a bell) becomes associated with a certain thing (food) and thereby elicits a response (salivating and drooling) even though the thing (food) is not present. With Operant Conditioning, we become conditioned at a subconscious level by the results of our behavior, whether positive or negative. Here's a short video that describes positive and negative...
That view sounds rather slavish too me.

Heres a better view I like: You have beliefs about yourself, and your world. Some of these are about what is 'good/bad.' You only accept 'subconsciouslly' data that fits in with your view of what is 'good/bad'. Your view of what is good/bad was originally accepted first from your parents and then later on by processing data using your newly developed consciousness. Therefore, you can only be 'conditioned' (unless you're talking really extreme, like on LSD or something) if your data fits in with beliefs you already have, or if you accept the data with your mind consistently over time.

For things like drooling, I also believe it is possible to condition yourself, even though you dont have a language (thoughts) to speak about the drooling. Maybe just dont drool consistently or something lol

In other words, by directing your thoughts, and choosing what to think (gradually), YOU condition yourself.

Another way to think about this is that as you develop a skill, you get more confident at it and trade less by emotions.
  • #44
  • Apr 21, 2013 8:05pm Apr 21, 2013 8:05pm
Quoting Starry
{quote} ...You have beliefs about yourself, and your world. Some of these are about what is 'good/bad.' You only accept 'subconsciouslly' data that fits in with your view of what is 'good/bad'. Your view of what is good/bad was originally accepted first from your parents and then later on by processing data using your newly developed consciousness. ....
I agree it is possible to change your views and beliefs not only about yourself, but also about your trading, which may or may not stem from your self beliefs.

I did some studying this week end to try and understand WHERE fear stimulus (which is my main trigger I belief) comes from. I found some interesting research on the subject. I have included my conclusions in a short paper attached here.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind providing some input on my conclusions.
Attached File(s)
File Type: docx physiology of fear.docx   154 KB | 646 downloads
  • #45
  • Apr 21, 2013 8:28pm Apr 21, 2013 8:28pm
Quoting Starry
{quote} That view sounds rather slavish too me. Heres a better view I like: You have beliefs about yourself, and your world. Some of these are about what is 'good/bad.' You only accept 'subconsciouslly' data that fits in with your view of what is 'good/bad'. Your view of what is good/bad was originally accepted first from your parents and then later on by processing data using your newly developed consciousness. Therefore, you can only be 'conditioned' (unless you're talking really extreme, like on LSD or something) if your data fits in with beliefs...
Operant Conditioning is used a lot for training children and pets. But also for "untraining" (unconditioning) adults out of bad habits like smoking and drug addiction.

Cognitive behavioral training is definitely sexier. That's where they get into how we think and feel about things:

Inserted Video


Inserted Video
  • #46
  • Apr 21, 2013 8:55pm Apr 21, 2013 8:55pm
There are some other approaches that appear to be related to CBT. Here's something from Tony Robbins:

Inserted Video
  • #47
  • Apr 22, 2013 3:10am Apr 22, 2013 3:10am
Quoting Pips_Cruiser
There are some other approaches that appear to be related to CBT. Here's something from Tony Robbins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU9_jKgiFAo
I'm a big fan of Anthony Robbins and that was inspiring. However, my first thought on the example he gave was that many beggars have mental health issues and don't easily fit his paradigm. This is an easy criticism of Anthony Robbins, but underlines even more strongly how we who are in a better position to change should take his advice.
Gone to a better place
  • #48
  • Apr 22, 2013 10:25am Apr 22, 2013 10:25am
Quoting gspajon
{quote} I agree it is possible to change your views and beliefs not only about yourself, but also about your trading, which may or may not stem from your self beliefs. I did some studying this week end to try and understand WHERE fear stimulus (which is my main trigger I belief) comes from. I found some interesting research on the subject. I have included my conclusions in a short paper attached here. Perhaps you wouldn't mind providing some input on my conclusions. {file}
A very well written paper

Im actually not too versed in psychology, but I do like your conclusion that highly concentrating on a central theme refocuses the frontal lobe and shuts down the stimulus for fear. However, based on cognitive behavior stuff, I like thinking that once you control your fear, you can actually eliminate it (i.e. it never comes back, so you no longer have to focus on a central theme).

This theme can be seen in hypnosis. When a hypnotherapist is trying to prevent a client from smoking cigarettes, there are two general methods that can be used. He can hypnotize the patient into resisting the cigarettes by suggesting the cigarettes taste nasty when the client encounters them. This is the resistance method and I have heard that it is not very effective and only lasts a couple of months. This is because it focuses on the fear itself and 'not' wanting it. Another method is a more gradual approach which focuses on building, via hypnosis, a supportive, healing belief system that encourages the client to not focus on the problem itself but rather (and im not actually sure how they accomplish this) on replacing cigarettes with "something else." (sort of like, when you have a song stuck in your head, sing another song to get rid of it).

I have personally found that I have a fear of losing, but I have structured my trading so I focus myself on the skills and not on fear. im training myself to be a super trooper forex trading sharp shooter

To eliminate doubt I imagine myself explaining why I would have, or did, enter a trade after the trading session is over (5-10 minutes extra after trading). Since i have an explanation which is solid (and it actually is, it would make sense), I also imagine myself feeling confident, because that is really all i can do, explain and execute!

Sort of an explanation like this, with the general reason followed by whatever specific reason i have:

"At the end of a long bull run with shallow retraces, price exhaustion will usually occur before price reverses direction......."
  • #49
  • Apr 22, 2013 10:36am Apr 22, 2013 10:36am
Quoting smikester
{quote} I'm a big fan of Anthony Robbins and that was inspiring. However, my first thought on the example he gave was that many beggars have mental health issues and don't easily fit his paradigm. This is an easy criticism of Anthony Robbins, but underlines even more strongly how we who are in a better position to change should take his advice.
Anthony says here 'clarity is power' and that is true but not exclusively so. Mental clarity is also many many other things, it's can be everything, but perhaps he means clarity gives you the power to change your everyday mind??

Now if you accept this general statement then the next question is obviously how do we achieve clarity of mind? The one thing about Tony that many people may fail to notice is his immense physical condition. This guy clearly works out, and he has the skin of a man half his age so has a very healthy liver. He's 53 but doesn't look it. So could we say to attain clarity of mind you have to be an intensely active person who eats healthy home-cooked food, plenty of raw vegetables and fruit but has no caffeine or alcohol? You need to sweat and breathe hard everyday preferably for hours to cleanse the body and to stimulate amongst other things your blood flow and the oxygenation of the body including the brain, your CPU. Does this open up a clear mind? Tony obviously lives a very clean healthy life and this is why he is capable of having a good understanding of psychological issues - he has good clarity of thought and is alive to the world.

Now unfortunately he could talk to his audience all day and night but if they aren't capable of taking in his observations because their body and mind are numbed by modern living then...they will never learn. Most people are slobs and when you are a slob your brain has a very limited capacity for the incredibly rewarding journey called 'introspection'. As a slob everything you see and feel is surface, much of what you come across in life is filtered and distorted by an egocentric world view that is propagated in children and adults by parents, teachers, and popular culture. You may think this doesn't apply to you. I might think it doesn't apply to me, but let's not be silly, we are all slobs, that's why we are reading this thread isn't it?

Can you stop self-sabotage? No you can't. All you can do is understand it, observe it, and it will then stop of it's own accord. How can you observe self-sabotage? How can you understand why you fail to follow your plan and how do you understand why you close your 15pip winner but hold on to a 40pip looser. Tony just told you. You need clarity, that's all you need. You won't find it reading this thread, or in any other printed source. You will find clarity inside of yourself. That's the only place you can ever find it. Now how do you find it again?
  • #50
  • Apr 22, 2013 10:53am Apr 22, 2013 10:53am
All self sabotage is based on an underlying belief. Emotions and imagination in general follow beliefs (somewhat). Specific fears are based on specific beliefs.

So you're afraid of encountering a tiger in the wild. Well, that fear is based on the belief that the tiger can harm you. Ridiculous right rofl . just joking.

But seriously, I just tried my trading 10 minutes of reflection, and I found that my fear of pulling the trigger was based on two fear. They're really phrased as 'what ifs', but really theyre beliefs. :
1) My analysis has no predictive value (I havent yet won consistently yet)
2) My analysis might fail to have predictive value in the future.

Beliefs to imagine instead, with as much detail and emotion as possible:

1) My analysis has a net positive predictive value.
2) If I have a large losing streak, my analysis still has a net positive predictive value.



As long as you're willing to analyze after trading to tweak some things if needed, this should work out. Went through those stages already im willing, able, and ready now.


The experience to back up these beliefs will follow as long as one is willing to analyze and put in the time, I think
  • #51
  • Apr 22, 2013 1:19pm Apr 22, 2013 1:19pm
The best way to correct bad habits is through training.

Run a simulator and trade it. Each trade identify what went right, what went wrong, and what needs to be corrected. Simulators are good because they cut down on wait time and you can trade months in a matter of hours. List each thing that needs attention, and mark off each time you violate one of those rules, do this over and over again until you aren't marking any of them off any more.

Even though this is just technical training, it creates the proper level of attention that can be applied to other issues that arise in live trading. A disciplined methodical approach.

Going down a rabbit hole of psychology can do more harm than good. Focusing on weakness breeds weakness. Talking about problems gives strength to problems.

A successful warrior does neither. Focusing on personal psychology reenforces the type of thinking that has no place in battle.

Success relies on 3 factors. Opportunity, strategy, and skill. A good strategy gives a trader the means to take advantage of opportunity. Skill is the ability to implement a strategy efficiently, with technical proficiency and the least amount of mental interference in the process.

This is the key. To be the operator without interfering in the process. It has nothing to do with psychology, it is simply a developed skill like any other. When people talk about the zone, this is exactly the type of focus they are describing.

It doesn't matter if you're afraid, or any other perceived weakness that may concern you. It's more a matter of what the requirements of being the operator are and focusing solely on that. If it's your job to push the button on a given signal, then you meet the requirements of the job. If it's your job to keep the trade open and monitor it until you have the appropriate signal to close it, then your job is to meet that requirement too. The same holds true for closing bad trades, not taking impulsive trades outside your rule set, and every other thing people attach psychological reasoning to.

Becoming a perfect operator is possessing the mind of no mind where you seamlessly perform the functions the job requires without mental interference. If people set about trying to change their psychology, it's a far too messy approach which leads to unnecessary complication. Problems have a way of sorting themselves out when the focus is on accomplishing the task at hand and eliminating mistakes technically.

It really doesn't matter why you make mistakes, all that matters is technically correcting those errors so they don't affect performance. Some things take more work than others, but by persistent training all obstacles can be overcome.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: 0789209039.interior01.jpg.jpeg Size: 120 KB
  • #52
  • Apr 22, 2013 1:34pm Apr 22, 2013 1:34pm
Quoting Fudomyo
The best way to correct bad habits is through training. Run a simulator and trade it. Each trade identify what went right, what went wrong, and what needs to be corrected. Simulators are good because they cut down on wait time and you can trade months in a matter of hours. List each thing that needs attention, and mark off each time you violate one of those rules, do this over and over again until you aren't marking any of them off any more. Even though this is just technical training, it creates the proper level of attention that can be applied...
Yes Fudo...could i add that the starting point is on trading real money...that is where the full pychology kicks in.

btw...hope you and yours are doing good
All systems of divination, like music itself,work through patterns.
  • #53
  • Apr 22, 2013 2:27pm Apr 22, 2013 2:27pm
Quoting gspajon
{quote} I did some studying this week end..... I have included my conclusions in a short paper attached here.
I congratulate you on your research and your well thought out summary. Many interesting points.
The idea that fear disrupts rational thinking is a good reason to maintain a calm even cool.
Focusing on rational thinking would seem to counteract the fear.


Quoting Pips_Cruiser
Here's a short video that describes positive and negative reinforcement and punishment:...
I found this to be interesting. I think it pays to at least be aware of these differences of reinforcement and punishment. It helps to be able to categorize behaviours and then deal with them in a rational way.

Quoting Price
Why am I afraid to pull the trigger on a potential really good trade when, in comparison, I take really Sh!**y trades all the time with no fear at all... ??
I know I'm quoting myself here, but I may have changed my view on this. In the first part, "Why am I afraid to pull the trigger on a potential really good trade", fear sets in at the last minute and disrupts the rational thought process.... OK.
But, taking crappy trades with no fear at all... ?? Maybe the fear had already set in, and the rational thought process had stopped..... and the bad trade was actually taken with no rational thought process.....

All fear and no rational thought.


Quoting Fudomyo
...Run a simulator and trade it.
This is a great idea. It's good to practice. We need to be our own coach. Each one must identify the problem areas they are having themselves.

Each one must find their own way to overcome the obstacles.
  • #54
  • Apr 22, 2013 3:40pm Apr 22, 2013 3:40pm
[quote=Price;6627273]{quote} I know I'm quoting myself here, but I may have changed my view on this. In the first part, "Why am I afraid to pull the trigger on a potential really good trade", fear sets in at the last minute and disrupts the rational thought process.... OK. But, taking crappy trades with no fear at all... ?? Maybe the fear had already set in, and the rational thought process had stopped..... and the bad trade was actually taken with no rational thought process..... All fear and no rational thought. {quote}

Thought process ??

1. That last trade I took was really shitty and because my fear of losing
money is far greater than my desire to make money, I let it run far longer
than I should have.

2. This looks like a good trade but it might turn out like that last one. I'm
just going to set it out.

3. That last trade would have been great even though I sat it out. It just
shows me how well my method really works. I'm going to take the very
next setup so I don't miss out again.

1....
2....
3....


(in my case it's probably just cognitive dysfunction. I'll get over it)

regards
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #55
  • Apr 22, 2013 4:12pm Apr 22, 2013 4:12pm
Quoting Fudomyo
...Going down a rabbit hole of psychology can do more harm than good. Focusing on weakness breeds weakness. Talking about problems gives strength to problems. A successful warrior does neither. Focusing on personal psychology reenforces the type of thinking that has no place in battle....
I'm afraid I disagree with this sentiment. Understanding your personal psychology can help a great deal. One must know what a problem is if he wishes to correct it. The fact that you call it a "rabbit hole" in reference to Lewis Carroll's famous story suggests your view point of how twisted the human (or even your personal) intellect can be. Perhaps that in and of itself is a fear trigger. It does not give strength to a problem to study it. To the contrary, by studying it you can find how to defeat it.

Your reference to the warrior attitude suggests that trading is a battle. I humbly submit that if indeed this is your view then that battle is within...not in the markets. The markets are only doing what they were designed to do...provide a place for people to buy and sell. It is not a battle field in the traditional sense unless that battle is within your own psyche.

As well, one of the most revered authors on war and battle, Sun Tzu, famously declared that war and battle must be won within oneself first before taking the battle to your enemy. Perhaps my favorite quote from the Art of War is his reference on how to see your enemy..."know your enemy, know yourself". He always suggest that you study your enemy and in so doing, you would find those same weaknesses in yourself, and be able to develop a defense for your vulnerabilities. Thus knowing your own weaknesses didn't give them strength in fact it BUILDS strength.

Try to follow the simple logic here:

  1. My trading does not create the results I want
  2. The method is shown to create better results than I'm getting and is therefore sound
  3. Many of my losses are because I am not strictly following the method
  4. My fear response prevents me from strictly following the method
  5. THEREFORE: By removing my fear response my results should more closely match the projections for my method


Is discipline hard? Of course, but its not a battle with the markets, I dare say that battle rages inside my head, but by learning about and studying it I can reduce or even eliminate that battle. I don't need a "knock out" punch with every trade, just a consistent series of clean jabs that slowly build equity in my account. Of course the occasional 'knock out" is good too, if it comes but I don't count on it.

  • #56
  • Apr 22, 2013 5:23pm Apr 22, 2013 5:23pm
Quoting Fudomyo
Talking about problems gives strength to problems. A successful warrior does neither.
In addition to gspajon's eloquent reply quoting Tzu which definitively disproves this statement I'd just like to add a bit more. Fudomyo it sounds like you are repressing yourself and bottling up a lot of frustration which no doubt comes out of you from time to time and that can be destructive. For certain I can say you are no warrior - and neither are professional boxers. Warriors do not exist anymore, they were men who went into chaotic hand to hand close quarter battle and fought their opponents to the death, they sliced limbs off and bludgeoned skulls in until the screaming stopped. You don't do that sitting infront of your computa and to pretend you do is pretty self-delusional. Real war messes people up. It makes them kill their families and themselves. More soldiers have committed suicide than have been killed by enemy in battle in a lot of recent conflicts. Not being able to talk about their problems or their nightmares led them to that solution. So please don't say talking about problems is a weakness. The weakness lies in being unable to confront your inner fears and turmoil.

Seeing yourself as being in conflict obviously helps you personally to hold focus and maintain a sense of urgency and discipline. That is understandable because you are drawing on your self protective instinct that gives great attention. But it's by no means the only way to trade, or the best way to trade or the most sustainable way to trade psychologically. By going into battle inside you are stressing yourself beyond what is sustainable or healthy long term. You mention the mind of no mind so perhaps there is no stress when you trade and your battle is a pre-session warm up to get you into the zone. Whatever works for you but all that repression just strikes me as being very cold and unreal. Best of luck.
  • #57
  • Apr 22, 2013 5:36pm Apr 22, 2013 5:36pm
Quoting stevexyg
{quote} Warriors do not exist anymore, they were men who went into chaotic hand to hand close quarter battle and fought their opponents to the death, they sliced limbs off and bludgeoned skulls in until the screaming stopped. .
Times may have changed but that statement is absurd (IMHO)

Why not try telling that to the Mothers of those lost in recent wars.

Where are you from. my dear boy?
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #58
  • Apr 22, 2013 5:46pm Apr 22, 2013 5:46pm
war·ri·or (wôrhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif-http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifr, whttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/obreve.gifrhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif-)n.1. One who is engaged in or experienced in battle.
2. One who is engaged aggressively or energetically in an activity, cause, or conflict:

or.... if I let you chop me up
does that make you a warrior ???

IDK... I'm just a pansy
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #59
  • Apr 22, 2013 6:20pm Apr 22, 2013 6:20pm
Quoting Slim Buffett
{quote} Times may have changed but that statement is absurd (IMHO) Why not try telling that to the Mothers of those lost in recent wars. Where are you from. my dear boy?
Soldiers these days aren't warriors. They kill from 100yards or from 3/4 mile with a Javelin or sniper round and if things get tough they back off and call for air support or mortars or artillery or an evac. A lot of soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan never kill anyone even from a distance. Warriors went into the bloody mess of a battle to fight hand to hand with no get out clause other than to kill or be killed.

Below is what a battle between warriors looks like, in a few moments some of these guys will be killing another man by ripping a knife through their intestines or cutting a huge slice out of their necks. They do this in an unstoppable rage until the enemy flee or are all slaughtered

Attached Image
.

Below is modern soldiering. Do you see the difference?


Attached Image


We don't need to see a keyboard warrior we all know what they look like.
  • #60
  • Apr 22, 2013 8:15pm Apr 22, 2013 8:15pm
Sun Tzu wasn't referring to the type of self absorbed psychology that many people in modern society engage in when he spoke of winning the battle within yourself.

His was a tactical statement. Mine was as well. I was describing a tangible methodology to overcome these weaknesses.


Quoting stevexyg
it sounds like you are repressing yourself and bottling up a lot of frustration which no doubt comes out of you from time to time and that can be destructive. For certain I can say you are no warrior - and neither are professional boxers.

Muhammad Ali was not just a boxer. He overcame extreme racial and social barriers in his time. He gave up his title and was banned from boxing based on his anti-war beliefs. He was a warrior and a champion in many respects of the word.

People post on this website from many different backgrounds and places. You can say nothing for certain about me because you know nothing about me. Projecting your personal beliefs or deficits on other people shows a lack of objectivity on your part.

Warriors come in all shapes and sizes. A little girl overcoming her disabilities so she can walk again is as much a warrior as anyone else who is engaged energetically in an activity, cause, or conflict. Not all of us have such a limited sense of the word or the spirit in which it can be applied.

If you find my approach cold and unreal that's your prerogative. There is nothing warm and fuzzy about the markets. Many people lack the discipline and strength to be successful in this business, but if you're going to make a go of it, establishing a methodology which helps to develop your strengths and overcome your deficits is a necessity.
0 traders viewing now