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Why do people engage in self destructive behaviors?

  • #21
  • Apr 16, 2013 8:25am Apr 16, 2013 8:25am
Quoting gspajon
Good analogy Mike. . I truly believe that trading can be done successfully and profitably but am looking for my own self control "techniques" to keep myself from burning my hands. I am beginning to think that there really is no "trade management". Only "self" management.
It's Sim

But I think the difference between profitability and non profitability is simply knowing when to stay out of the kitchen. You know when there's those markets that are almost impossible to lose money but then there are those markets that are seemingly impossible to make money. Knowing the difference is key. Sometimes you have to take a week off, or a day or maybe a month. Do you have the discipline to do this?

It can be hard when you feel like "I'm a trader... I should be trading" kinda thing... But I mean whose smarter the guy taking 20 trades a week and risking 2% per trade for a total risk of 40%... Or the guy who waits all week for that no brainier high probability trade and throws down a confident 5%? 10%?

Who has the discipline to trade like that when the time invested and leverage waged on one chance is so out of whack to what the rest of the population does day in day out.. Who has the balls to know that this is actually much less risk than working harder, stressing more, looking more lazy?

How much does ego and self worth come into play here, but what will be the end result after 6 months comparing these two things?

Who has the skills to know when to trade 20 times a week and when to drop back to trading once a week? What's the difference?

Who has the metal capacity to displace what's normal and to actually DO what 99.6 (or whatever that negative guy above said) Does Not?

Very fking few. And depending on circumstance this is hard...People have bills to pay and all that.
Time hides Nothing
  • #22
  • Apr 16, 2013 8:28am Apr 16, 2013 8:28am
Quoting CindyXXXX
It's Sim But I think the difference between profitability and non profitability is simply knowing when to stay out of the kitchen. You know when there's those markets that are almost impossible to lose money but then there are those markets that are seemingly impossible to make money. Knowing the difference is key. Sometimes you have to take a week off, or a day or maybe a month. Do you have the discipline to do this? It can be hard when you feel like "I'm a trader... I should be trading" kinda thing... But I mean whose smarter the guy taking...
Spot on.
What is any ocean but a multitude of drops?
  • #23
  • Apr 16, 2013 9:48am Apr 16, 2013 9:48am
Quoting CindyXXXX
It's Sim
Sorry Sim...a blunder I won't repeat.

Quoting CindyXXXX
How much does ego and self worth come into play here, ...
A key question...and the focus of this thread.

Is it ego or self worth? To some extent I think we all derive our self identity by what we chose to "be" in our professional lives. I can honestly say that after I left the police department after 28 years in public service, I had to struggle to define who I am when I left my career behind. Did this make its way into my trading and cause problems? I honestly can't say. Do other's make trades simply because they are "traders" and MUST trade?

There is not doubt that the pressure to put food on the table and/or "perform" may play a role in trading outside your "discipline'. However, I tend to question self identity but this may be something worth exploring.

I have personally been exploring the idea of keeping a "thought" journal to explore what I am "feeling" on each and every trade. Then after a few weeks review that journal and see if I can't make a connection to "bad" trades, and or losess. Perhaps a pattern will appear.

As with everything, you cannot solve a problem if you don't know what that problem is.
  • #24
  • Apr 16, 2013 12:23pm Apr 16, 2013 12:23pm
Quoting gspajon
Sorry Sim...a blunder I won't repeat. A key question...and the focus of this thread. Is it ego or self worth? To some extent I think we all derive our self identity by what we chose to "be" in our professional lives. I can honestly say that after I left the police department after 28 years in public service, I had to struggle to define who I am when I left my career behind. Did this make its way into my trading and cause problems? I honestly can't say. Do other's make trades simply because they are "traders" and MUST trade? There is not doubt...
I've tried the thought journal, it didnt work with me. What works better is to separate your trading style into a bunch of skills (identifying structure, price action, instinct ....) and then drawing the structure on the chart. Record all the reasons. Then review later. If you feel there was too much emotion involved in a certain skill (dont record emotion, just look back at it later), simply remind yourself how the skill should be performed and move on.

Then, the focus is on the skill. Just like you learn to add in elementary school, you might feel doubt at first. Maybe im not good enough, maybe its too hard, or if you're a trader, maybe its just my damn emotions? But its a skill, emotions in the end really dont get in the way if you approach it in a manner that makes sense to you.

This has the added advantage that trading becomes really quite fun and not very stressful. Once you become quantifiably good enough with a small account over a couple of months(oanda is good for the smallest lot sizes), then one can go live. I havent reached that yet.

Dont have enough time, cant trade in the appropriate hour? Download ninjatrader and use the simulate functionality to trade the euro open hours, or whatever you want (I trade 6:00 - 10:00 CST). If it doesnt feel the same as trading live, get over it, it is the same!

I like this way of doing things, it adds structure that I need and isnt readily available in forex (unlike when you go to school).
  • #25
  • Apr 16, 2013 12:26pm Apr 16, 2013 12:26pm
Quoting MapleLeaf
This is a 99.6% losers game. Maybe I can consider "waking up", when traders "WAKE UP" and see that they are dealing with a CASINO EDGE, and thus will lose their money long term, and that they should quit, before its too late. That's waking up. But some people dont wake up early enough.
Some people fall asleep and believe they have awoken.
  • #26
  • Apr 16, 2013 1:00pm Apr 16, 2013 1:00pm
I call it intellectual curiosity.

I think this describes situation nicely: imagine you are alone on the football field and the ball moves by itself.

Trading is like standing in the same place (place from which you can score regularly) watching how it wanders around football field coming closer then going further away from you... until it comes close enough to kick (open trade).

But such waiting is darn boring... it is so seductive to just take that ball and do something with it.
  • #27
  • Apr 16, 2013 1:28pm Apr 16, 2013 1:28pm
this thread remind me on tv show called "dog whisperer", Cesar said, its very normal if a dog have excitement on a new things, especially on activity that dog likes, but if we let that Excitment Behaviour without controll,at some point, it can turn into aggressive ! my point is, its very natural if human trying that something that he thought it can make good result, but if over do, it will turn into nightmare!

its just like having sex, and its very normal! some people doing sex every day with different peoples thought that kind of activity are normal but when their activity to often, shit! happen, and boom! you got something
bottom line is, its ok, when you do something that not ok! as long its not over do!
“If you’re not getting rewarded for the risk, why take it?”
  • #28
  • Apr 17, 2013 3:28am Apr 17, 2013 3:28am
Ok, I want to share my problem: inability to keep my winning trades longer.

I consistantly have had problem with this so I have written rules that say:

1) Follow your rules.
6) Don't close a trade without a reason!! Market will try to fool you out of your good trades!!! You will be rewarded for keeping your winning trades longer.
7) Know your judgement points duting trade, stick to your made judgements.

Yet, I fail to execute them. Here is my this mornings story.

I am looking at USDJPY 5 min chart, I see valid countertred setup and enter with tight stop loss. I normally don't enter countertred, but I felt like there is some space where it can go lower.

It goes well in a sense that i don't get stepped out. I have many chance to exit with +8-9 pips, but I manage concinve myself that I am not a scalper and I must keep it way longer.

Then it does breaks lower, but it doesn't go far, i'm still kinda nervous. Watching price is quite hard, especially if it goes not in your way. I have chance to exit with +15/16/17, but i still managed to convine myself that i have to keep it longer. This was my judgement point (rule 7). Then price goes up.... and.. break my rules...chicken out... like always.. take my 8 pips and ask myself why I didnt exit with +15.

Price does go even 6.5 pips higher but finds some resistance in all pairs i watch (eur/usd, jpy/eur, usd/jpy). Both eur/usd and eur/jpy looked very sell, but i don't enter. (I was close to shorting.. but usd/jpy didn't look super good and i didnt really get my price at eur/jpy plus the spread was not really good enough.)

And then i see how it goes down... and blame myself. So I wrote this story. I get in such winning trades often enough, but i turn them into scalping trades...

I guess i can't really handle the thought that my +xx pips trade can turn in a loss.
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  • #29
  • Edited 4:21am Apr 17, 2013 3:54am | Edited 4:21am
They take this scam too seriously. More like a fraud. Read the article, 99.6% lose. Lighten up people, it's only a stupid game, when I was a kid, mom would pour some dimes, nickels, and pennys into our hands, and we would play at the penny arcades for a few hours, the crane drop, skeeball, forex is nothing more than a Vegas slot machine computer, that's all it is, I was a software engineer for ten years, it's programmed to take money, not give it, notice whenever you open the platform, "wanna play, wanna play?" It opens to lure people in, it's a fish-hook for suckers. Most people are looking for an escape, an outlet, from their miserable jobs, themselves, their circumstances. Go ahead and play but play smart, I play one penny, I make a few shekels, at most I lose dimes. See Rookie Talk: Forex=Scam.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/fore...real-data.html

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  • #30
  • Apr 17, 2013 4:14am Apr 17, 2013 4:14am
Quoting jgray110
They take this scam too seriously. More like a fraud. Read the article, 99.6% lose. Lighten up people, it's only a stupid game, when I was a kid, mom would pour some dimes, nickels, and pennys into our hands, and we would play at the penny arcades for a few hours, the crane drop, skeeball, forex is nothing more than a Vegas slot machine computer, that's all it is, I was a software engineer for ten years, it's programmed to take money, not give it, notice whenever you open the platform, "wanna play, wanna play?" It opens to lure people in,...
I have to strongly disagree with the thoughts here, you can't increase your odd on a vegas slot machine.

It's a skill, there's no vetting procedure who gets in to forex, most have not got the skill to conquer it, that's fine, but in no way is it rigged for or against anyone (apart from having to pay spread).

p.s what the hell has being a software engineer have to do with anything? in my experience programmers are pretty crumby at anything that involves humans...in fact never met one thats good at anything other than programming.
tradewith60
  • #31
  • Apr 17, 2013 6:44am Apr 17, 2013 6:44am
Why do people engage in self destructive behaviors?

due to the yin yang
(Completely opposite)

salaam
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  • #32
  • Apr 17, 2013 7:20am Apr 17, 2013 7:20am
Quoting mr.kho
Why do people engage in self destructive behaviors? due to the yin yang (Completely opposite) salaam {image} {image}
Hello
Mr.Kho

I heard about this ying yang lot of times but don't know what exactly it is? Can you give some explanation
  • #33
  • Apr 17, 2013 8:20am Apr 17, 2013 8:20am
Quoting Eagleprice
Hello Mr.Kho I heard about this ying yang lot of times but don't know what exactly it is? Can you give some explanation
yin yang is nature universal :in harmony,, balance,,flows and changes with time.

represents the contrasting pairs ; like:
black and white
night and day
Long and short
High and low
entry and exit
lose and win

hot and cold
light and dark
life and death
birth and death
good and evil
negative and positive
female and male

etc,,etc,,

salaam
  • #34
  • Apr 17, 2013 8:40pm Apr 17, 2013 8:40pm
Quoting gspajon
Good analogy Mike. However, we all know how to hold a boiling pan withOUT burning ourselves, and the burn, while painful is an "accident" that is preventable. So while you may drop the pan, do you also stop cooking for yourself? Or do you starve yourself to death because you're afraid of being burned? Or do you find someone to cook for you? NO. Your cooking skills have nothing to do with your accidental burn. You just learn to correctly handle the pan and continue. Of course you are cautious around the hot instruments the next few times but that...
nice quotes ,,sir,,

## I truly believe that trading can be done successfully and profitably but am looking for my own self control "techniques" to keep myself from burning my hands. I am beginning to think that there really is no "trade management". Only "self" management.

## As with everything, you cannot solve a problem if you don't know what that problem is.
( gspajon )

salaam
  • #35
  • Edited 9:58pm Apr 17, 2013 9:45pm | Edited 9:58pm
Quoting gspajon
OK all you amateur psychologists, here is a question for you to ponder. "Why do people engage in self destructive behaviors?" What makes someone do something they KNOW is destructive to them? . . .
Hi Gerald. During medieval times, when I was going to college and one of my majors was psychology, we studied something called Operant Conditioning. It used concepts like positive and negative reinforcement to explain behavior patterns, and also to change those behaviors. I think some of the self-defeating or self-destructive actions you’re talking about here can be explained by it.

We know that we should eat better, that we should exercise better, and that we should follow our trading plans better. We want to stay physically and mentally healthy, and develop into successful traders. We can write in detail about exactly what we should do in different situations. Sometimes that works fine, and our discipline keeps our actions in line with our long-term goals. We do what we’ve decided we “should” do, to live the life we want.

But other times something else wins out, and we don’t follow our plans. Unhealthy food might taste better to us than healthy food, so we give in to junk that we should stay away from. It might feel better to just lounge around the house instead of exercising, so we give in to that. Things can taste better, and we can feel more comfortable if we don’t follow our plans. We get instant gratification from this, and it serves as positive reinforcement. We come to associate pleasure with those actions, even though they are not in our long-term best interests. This in turn can lead to habits and addictions that last a lifetime.

Overtrading is probably the most common discipline problem for traders. In our early days of trading we get excitement from entering and exiting trades. We get a rush from the risk, and another rush from the rewards. Back in the 1990s we’d have to call our broker to enter and exit trades, and that slowed things down. But nowadays the whole thing is setup like a computer game, and whenever you get a notion to do something it’s right there at your fingertips. It’s the perfect vehicle for a break down in discipline. New traders get the satisfying rush from it. It’s quick, pleasurable and fun. Later IMO, we unconsciously seek that rush again. We can find ourselves overtrading whether it actually delivers the pleasure anymore or not. It’s a habit that was positively reinforced in the past, and we might not be completely over it yet.

If a certain behavior receives punishment instead of reward, Operant Conditioning says that the behavior will decrease. An example would be white mice in a cage that used to receive food after pressing a lever. If it’s changed so that they receive an electric shock, they start to associate pain instead of pleasure with it. Therefore the behavior will decrease. I see a glimmer of hope here for traders. If our will power or reasoning isn’t enough to ward off overtrading, repeated negative experiences with losing money while doing it will eventually register at a gut level. In this case experience and hard knocks are the teacher.
  • #36
  • Apr 18, 2013 12:24am Apr 18, 2013 12:24am
Quoting mr.kho
yin yang is nature universal :in harmony,, balance,,flows and changes with time. represents the contrasting pairs ; like: black and white night and day Long and short High and low entry and exit lose and win hot and cold light and dark life and death birth and death good and evil negative and positive female and male etc,,etc,, salaam
thanks a lot for the explanation!! I got it!!
  • #37
  • Apr 18, 2013 12:48am Apr 18, 2013 12:48am
How can I trade Forex by analyzing the market and all... If such factors to be analysed, what are those to be considered to analyse forex rates in the future.......

I hope someone will help me........
  • #38
  • Apr 18, 2013 4:25pm Apr 18, 2013 4:25pm
60minuteman: most have not got the skill to conquer it...

There are hundreds of mentored step-by-step strategies and discussions and most have not the skill to conquer it? Speaking of people-skills, that's very childish on your part. Blah blah blah. Produce your live trading record real soon to back up your big mouth. You owe that much to all the people you just insulted.
  • #39
  • Apr 18, 2013 6:46pm Apr 18, 2013 6:46pm
Quoting Pips_Cruiser
Hi Gerald. During medieval times, when I was going to college and one of my majors was psychology, we studied something called Operant Conditioning. It used concepts like positive and negative reinforcement to explain behavior patterns, and also to change those behaviors. I think some of the self-defeating or self-destructive actions you’re talking about here can be explained by it. We know that we should eat better, that we should exercise better, and that we should follow our trading plans better. We want to stay physically and mentally healthy,...
nice quotes ,,sir,, sound like a cliche,,,but very realistic,,and that's what happened all the time,, Overtrading is probably the most common discipline problem for traders. In our early days of trading we get excitement from entering and exiting trades. ( Pips Cruiser ) salaam
  • #40
  • Apr 19, 2013 12:38am Apr 19, 2013 12:38am
Back to thread I would add my 2 cents)
People always want what is the threat for them. Remember Freud? Besides jokes, he examined people, who can't afford to do what the want. As a result there were some depressed wishes.
In our case even sober-minded people always dream of the instant riches)) that's why forex market will be always growing.
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