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Trading with and without Indicators

  • #21
  • Apr 8, 2013 3:20pm Apr 8, 2013 3:20pm
Quoting Kanzler
Find me one truly mechanical strategy that works well over the long haul (several years) and doesn't have some fundamental flaw, like trend-following or martingrail. People use indicators because the real truth is they don't know what they're doing and they want a nanny to tell them what to do.
Why create indicators if they are useless?

I never said that trading without indicator (what do you call it? naked trading/Price Action trading...?) is bad or will have no chance of succeed...no i didn't say that

With or without indicator...they both have equal chance to succeed, it's just probability game (game of odds, like you said)

Each of us just have to find the strategy thats suits our personality, it's just matter of personal preference .. i think

Goodluck to all
i worshipped... Momentum
  • #22
  • Apr 8, 2013 3:29pm Apr 8, 2013 3:29pm
Quoting rockrobb
Why create indicators if they are useless? I never said that trading without indicator (what do you call it? naked trading/Price Action trading...?) is bad or will have no chance of succeed...no i didn't say that With or without indicator...they both have equal chance to succeed, it's just probability game (game of odds, like you said) Each of us just have to find the strategy thats suits our personality, it's just matter of personal preference .. i think Goodluck to all
Don't take what I say as a personal attack, I just hope to get you away from them. I strongly believe indicators are harmful for learning to trade, it's not as straightforward as most people think it is with the odds. There is a very clear game being played in the markets but to become familiar with it you have to see it for what it is first, and indicators will blind you.
  • #23
  • Apr 9, 2013 5:28am Apr 9, 2013 5:28am
Quoting Porkpie
Its a typical learning cycle of starting out with indicators and then moving onto cleaner charts over time. I don't think there is anything wrong with using indicators as long as you understand their limitations. Too often I see traders, even so called 'professional traders/educators', posting after the fact charts. These will typically show where they would have got into the market forgetting that its actually the next candle after the indicators has signalled where you would have made entry. More often than not most of the move has already happened...
Good and valuable post. You are talking about both indicators and price action trading. Thanks for your input.
  • #24
  • Apr 9, 2013 5:31am Apr 9, 2013 5:31am
Quoting rockrobb
Why create indicators if they are useless? I never said that trading without indicator (what do you call it? naked trading/Price Action trading...?) is bad or will have no chance of succeed...no i didn't say that With or without indicator...they both have equal chance to succeed, it's just probability game (game of odds, like you said) Each of us just have to find the strategy thats suits our personality, it's just matter of personal preference .. i think Goodluck to all
Yes. We cannot avoid indis if we choose to go with price action trading. I know some people are successful with Indis while some are successes without Indis. Everyone has different opinions toward the market and their strategies. So go with the with high probability of success is the best option.
  • #25
  • Apr 9, 2013 5:34am Apr 9, 2013 5:34am
This thread turned out be a very good one. Please continue your valuable postings .
  • #26
  • Apr 9, 2013 6:05am Apr 9, 2013 6:05am
I use moving averages as a point of reference whether to buy or sell ....ultimately my system is discretionary adapting to market conditions ....mechanical trading=curve fitting to some degree and soon degrades.
wo-yoy! wo-yoy! wo-yoy! wo-yoi! wo-yoy-yoy-yoy!
  • #27
  • Apr 9, 2013 6:25am Apr 9, 2013 6:25am
Well indicator aren't as useless, they make the charts more attractive to look
I only use the Ichimoku cloud for SS/RS level when the price approaches it
Otherwise you are looking at a trader who was trained using candlesticks
only. I.E pure PA and nothing else.
In my opinion, have a max of two indicators and keep your eyes on the candlesticks.
  • #28
  • Apr 9, 2013 7:25am Apr 9, 2013 7:25am
Hi I think the best thing is to use price action itself. I used to use indicators but now have taken them off and instead of 4 moving averages am down to 1 the 100 weighted moving average. The cleaner my charts the better I trade. All indicators are lagging, so should only be used for confirmation of your trade rather than a reason to make a trade in my experience.

Stick with price action!
  • #29
  • Apr 9, 2013 7:39am Apr 9, 2013 7:39am
"Indicators lag" we hear this all the time - Not all of them!!!

"Price action does not lag" - depends!!!
eg the daily chart lags the 4hr chart...........etc
  • #30
  • Apr 9, 2013 7:46am Apr 9, 2013 7:46am
I suppose I don't regard price action as an indicator - which is why I like it - it's what is happening right now. I take indicators to mean rsi etc etc
  • #31
  • Apr 9, 2013 8:34am Apr 9, 2013 8:34am
The first indicator i used is "numbers".
The second one is line graph. No bars, no candle sticks.... and no timeframes

The 1st thing i look is DayHigh, DayLow, OpenPrice, and current price, then i figured out my plan for today.

My strategy trading is Price Zone, Key Levels.
Price Zone is first 2 digits, and Key Levels is last 2 digits. That's all.

Trading is very simple, dudes. you can traveling and trading with mobile phone, don't need carry damm heavy laptop. just sitting at computer when you got home.
BullShit BearShit
  • #32
  • Apr 11, 2013 4:59am Apr 11, 2013 4:59am
Quoting etrade360
The first indicator i used is "numbers". The second one is line graph. No bars, no candle sticks.... and no timeframes The 1st thing i look is DayHigh, DayLow, OpenPrice, and current price, then i figured out my plan for today. My strategy trading is Price Zone, Key Levels. Price Zone is first 2 digits, and Key Levels is last 2 digits. That's all. Trading is very simple, dudes. you can traveling and trading with mobile phone, don't need carry damm heavy laptop. just sitting at computer when you got home.

Interesting, First time I heard that a newbie start with numbers and a bit advanced techniques to trade fx.
  • #33
  • Apr 11, 2013 5:04am Apr 11, 2013 5:04am
Quoting etrade360
The first indicator i used is "numbers". The second one is line graph. No bars, no candle sticks.... and no timeframes The 1st thing i look is DayHigh, DayLow, OpenPrice, and current price, then i figured out my plan for today. My strategy trading is Price Zone, Key Levels. Price Zone is first 2 digits, and Key Levels is last 2 digits. That's all. Trading is very simple, dudes. you can traveling and trading with mobile phone, don't need carry damm heavy laptop. just sitting at computer when you got home.
Interesting. It would be great to see this on a chart or two ...
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #34
  • Edited 8:49am Apr 11, 2013 8:37am | Edited 8:49am
Quoting Alanamc
Interesting, First time I heard that a newbie start with numbers and a bit advanced techniques to trade fx.
Thousand years ago we didn't have electricity of course no computer, but how we trade in market, east west trading on the world. Present, we have computer, but somethings we trade every day has no charts like trade real estate, trade vehicles, trade gasoline..... and how u know "oh, this one too expensive", "oh that one very cheap.."

Exp: Look at GBP/USD, last week lowest was $1.50, now is $1.53. So you tell me it's up or down ?

So when u buy hambuger u have to look the chart... hihi
BullShit BearShit
  • #35
  • Apr 11, 2013 1:32pm Apr 11, 2013 1:32pm
Everybody trades with indicators.

The candlestick chart is an indicator. The line chart is an indicator. Even tape reading is an indicator. You will notice it's going up or down. Not looking at the chart and using fundamentals? Nope you listen the news, economic reports... indis.

I cannot figure out a way to trade indicator-less. Flip a coin maybe, but is that trading?
No greed. No fear. Just maths.
  • #36
  • Apr 11, 2013 7:32pm Apr 11, 2013 7:32pm
Quoting PipMeUp
Flip a coin maybe, but is that trading?
Entry isn't that important. Flip a coin is one of the method to enter a trade.

The real trading part is how you will manage your trade once entered ...
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #37
  • Apr 11, 2013 7:38pm Apr 11, 2013 7:38pm
Quoting FerruFx
The best indicators are your eyes. A naked chart ... look at the price action around high TFs key levels. Check at some 60minuteman's great threads about price action ... Great great readings.

well said
SEE LINE,TRADE LINE..PRICE HAS TO GO SOMEWHERE,,, PRICE WILL GO SOMEWHERE.
  • #38
  • Apr 11, 2013 7:57pm Apr 11, 2013 7:57pm
Quoting FerruFx
Entry isn't that important. Flip a coin is one of the method to enter a trade. The real trading part is how you will manage your trade once entered ...

love this quotes,,

The real trading part is how you will manage your trade once entered

salaam
  • #39
  • Apr 11, 2013 9:16pm Apr 11, 2013 9:16pm
Any form of trading (PA/Indicators/Fundamentals, etc) is based on the notion that we are simply beasts of habit. The ticking prices on the screen are nothing but a reflection of the mass psychology of the market participants. Therefore, if enough people believe MAs are good for trading signals, then they will be. Same happens for any combinations of trading styles or strategies. They are ALL founded on the same belief.

Disregarding any method of trading on the basis of their ability to keep up with future price movements is, in my opinion, evidence that we are not keeping in mind the above fundamental truth of human behavior. If, in turn, we choose to base our assessment of the above based in our ability to enter trades earlier than those who use other methods, then I could always come in here and tell a scalper that I entered the same trade he did, two days ago and I am already 200 pips in when in fact I am a swing trader.

In my opinion, if PA (which is nothing but price movement), have pattern that can tell us something about the market, then indicators (which are based on price as well) could have patterns too. We just need to know what they are telling us. The biggest weakness of an indicator, as stated, is its inability to keep with prices as they change trends, but this is all due to the fact that indicators only factor in blocks of time lapses rather than a continuum. One day it can move lots of pips in a short period of time, and sometimes a few pips can take many days. Take time out of the equation and things look a lot different.

In my own experience, just like two sets of several indicators can give you contradicting signals, I have seen PA gurus see completely different things on the same charts.

Cheers!
Please pull my head out of my ass, I am running out of oxygen...
  • #40
  • Apr 12, 2013 3:53am Apr 12, 2013 3:53am
Quoting FerruFx
Entry isn't that important. Flip a coin is one of the method to enter a trade. The real trading part is how you will manage your trade once entered ...
Good point!

But if you want to use no indicators at all you will also have to exit at random (!), making you unable to manage the trade. Note that by "random" I don't mean you have to roll a dice or flip a coin. To me random means "indepently of the market". Setting a stop order N pips above and below the price at the open is such a random entry to me. I agree you can make this profitable by managing the position but you'll do this based on the indications of the PA.
No greed. No fear. Just maths.
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