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My mentality - my problem

  • #21
  • Feb 27, 2013 4:09pm Feb 27, 2013 4:09pm
Quoting hanover
If you're batting at 40% while maintaining 5:1 RR then you're massively ahead of where I'm currently at. Something for me to work toward.
We are always working towards something. Or rather, we should strive to!

Not quite up to 40%. It's a side account. It will be bigger than the main one in a few years though, if I can maintain it... WHICH I CAN!

I'm thinking about modifying the profit rules slightly by locking the trailing stop at +4% when the 5% target is hit. Sometimes the breakout goes for more than 25 pips. 7-10% is at times what the potential would have been if I had not closed the trade. This seems potentially more profitable while essentially only risking 1% of profit to make that extra 2-5% on the trade, what do you think?

This strategy is scalping EU with 5 pip stop (4 pips + 1 spread), 25 pip target. Requires a breakout with a wide gap to the nearest resistance (at least 25 pips away).
Be hopeful in a winning position, and fearful in a losing position.
  • #22
  • Feb 27, 2013 4:52pm Feb 27, 2013 4:52pm
Quoting Rag2RichesFX
I'm thinking about modifying the profit rules slightly by locking the trailing stop at +4% when the 5% target is hit. Sometimes the breakout goes for more than 25 pips. 7-10% is at times what the potential would have been if I had not closed the trade. This seems potentially more profitable while essentially only risking 1% of profit to make that extra 2-5% on the trade, what do you think?
I tend to let the market conditions dictate my exits, rather than personal P/L or MM considerations, which the market takes no cognizance of. But I'm definitely NOT saying that you're wrong, just that everybody is different.

As an example, my profit exit rules include:

(1) Exiting part of the position on a 'large' H4 candle ('large' is defined by an indy that I developed).
(2) Exiting part of the position when the 'trend' (defined by another H4-based indy) has changed direction.
(3) Exiting the remainder of the position when the relative strengths (D1/W1) of the currencies that comprise the pair appear to be shifting significantly. Then I'm looking to recycle the margin that I've recovered into other negatively correlated currencies (= strongest trending pairs).

If the market conditions (H4/D1) are 'choppy', then I'll take a bigger chunk of the position off at (1), and the rest at (2). If the market exhibits strong trending (like the JPY pairs did in Nov/Dec), then I'll leave most of the position on until (3). This part is currently more discretionary than I'd like it to be.

Of course these rules are totally inappropriate for scalping; I'm merely providing an example of how it's possible to use the market to dictate an exit strategy. A scalper might use (say) M5/M15 support/resistance or supply/demand levels, or candle patterns suggesting that the battle between bulls and bears is changing momentum, or average pips moved in a session, to determine his exits on a technical, rather than P/L-based, basis. Or you could use a combo of both, e.g. strive to squeeze an extra 1% out of the trade if your chosen technicals continue to appear favorable.
  • #23
  • Feb 27, 2013 5:20pm Feb 27, 2013 5:20pm
Quoting Eur Usd
that's what I am talking about. I made a huge mistake. made a fool of myself. I had nice 8% of profit today (at3% of target) but I wanted more, so I made silly trades without s/l. why am I so silly
I don't know you and maybe you are a special kind of talent in trading, but going by your posts in this thread, if you have days where your account balance fluctuates by 8% (within a day) then I'm inclined to think you are seriously overleveraging your positions. Seems to me like that's clearly your biggest problem right now.
  • #24
  • Feb 27, 2013 10:58pm Feb 27, 2013 10:58pm
Quoting 2+2=4ex
I don't know you and maybe you are a special kind of talent in trading, but going by your posts in this thread, if you have days where your account balance fluctuates by 8% (within a day) then I'm inclined to think you are seriously overleveraging your positions. Seems to me like that's clearly your biggest problem right now.
Hi

I don't think my account is overlevereged (1:50 account, my risk is 7pips=1% adjusted then behind nearest round number, so sometimes it may be more that 1%). I can do constant profits for longer period with 3-10% a day with 60% of good trades and then greed kicks in. Like yesterday I had nice 7,5% profit but decided to try again, so I lost the profit and to get it back I was trading again, and then greed with lack of s/l kicked in, so now you can see where I am. It is think, I realise that If I'l stick to rules with this system In few years I'll achieve my targets, but my dark side expects from me fast profits. Probably will have to re-start my demo account again.
the weird think is that I gain profits in the morning, and I lose in the afternoon.
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #25
  • Feb 27, 2013 11:06pm Feb 27, 2013 11:06pm
  •  FerruFx
  • Joined May 2007 | Status: MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder | 6,542 Posts | Online Now
Quoting Eur Usd
Like yesterday I had nice 7,5% profit but decided to try again, so I lost the profit ...

... the weird think is that I gain profits in the morning, and I lose in the afternoon.
This should have told you something as it happened many times ... but it seems that you like to give back your earnings

If you are able to make even 1% everyday, you don't need to be greedy as your balance will always growth.

Many traders here on FF would love to make 1% a day!
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #26
  • Feb 28, 2013 12:03am Feb 28, 2013 12:03am
Quoting Eur Usd
Hi

I don't think my account is overlevereged (1:50 account, my risk is 7pips=1% adjusted then behind nearest round number, so sometimes it may be more that 1%). I can do constant profits for longer period with 3-10% a day with 60% of good trades and then greed kicks in. Like yesterday I had nice 7,5% profit but decided to try again, so I lost the profit and to get it back I was trading again, and then greed with lack of s/l kicked in, so now you can see where I am. It is think, I realise that If I'l stick to rules with this system In few years...
I think 7 pips equaling 1% of your account balance is over-leveraged. Your spread alone (assuming it is only 1 pip) accounts for 14% of your loss. Then you have things like gaps and slippage. Even if those don't happen too often, you are still vulnerable to a greater than expected loss. At a reward/risk ratio of 3:1 (which you state in your first post), you need to hit on 25% of your trades to break-even. Oh and did I already mention you start at 14% of the way towards your stop. And since your spread moves you closer to your stop, it also moves you further from your profit target. In essence, you need price to move 22 pips in your favor before it moves 6 pips against your entry each trade. Now I don't know how good and accurate you are with your entries but I find this to be a daunting task. I believe your trade windows are too small and at a greater vulnerability to volatility. I also find that you are exposing yourself to excessive risk (overall). Lastly, in this instance I am using the term "over-leverage" as in your total exposure - not to be confused with the leverage your broker offers you.
  • #27
  • Feb 28, 2013 1:47am Feb 28, 2013 1:47am
I get your point guys.
This is what I trade: http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=236210
and I've tested this method many times, and it always gives me good profits, but then greed kicks in and I want even more, I want to catch every move, and then I fail due to greed, anger, revenge, lack of s/l etc
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #28
  • Feb 28, 2013 3:32am Feb 28, 2013 3:32am
make rules and follow them....if only it were so easy.

I think deep inside we fear success and subconsciously sabotage ourselves.
wo-yoy! wo-yoy! wo-yoy! wo-yoi! wo-yoy-yoy-yoy!
  • #29
  • Feb 28, 2013 1:16pm Feb 28, 2013 1:16pm
Quoting Eur Usd
I get your point guys.
This is what I trade: http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=236210
and I've tested this method many times, and it always gives me good profits, but then greed kicks in and I want even more, I want to catch every move, and then I fail due to greed, anger, revenge, lack of s/l etc
Some final ideas for you, before I leave this thread.

Either you have total confidence that your chosen system (Choros) is profitable, or you don’t. If losses are causing you to doubt a system, then you shouldn’t be trading it, and certainly not on a real money account. However, from what you’re saying, it sounds like you believe in the system. So let’s proceed on the assumption that Choros can be used to trade profitably, and you have no problem putting your faith in it.

So if the problem is ‘you’ rather than the system, then one thing you need to decide is whether it’s predominantly in the area of entries or exits. If exits, then set a SL, TP or trailing SL, or — if the exit rules are more complex — have a small EA written. Then, immediately after entering a trade, walk away from the computer, and even get out of the house, if necessary. That way, you can’t meddle with anything.

With entries there are normally two types of problem, fear of ‘pulling the trigger’, and overtrading. If overtrading, one possible approach is to punish yourself for taking a trade that you shouldn’t, i.e. violating the rules. Every time you transgress, you must make yourself go back to demo trading for a week, or have a week without trading. The same applies if you have a losing week, you must spend the following week in demo (which is generally a good idea anyway, for other reasons), and not return to your live account until you have 3 (or whatever number you choose) consecutive winning weeks.

Another possible approach is to have two accounts, demo and live. Take out your frustrations (greed, revenge, etc) on the demo account, while you follow the rules on the live one. (It’s a bit like having a punch-bag in the garage, to ensure that you don’t take frustrations out on your family).

If you find that you freeze up when called to make a decision, or you otherwise you can’t bring yourself to act, for whatever reason, then have a family member or flatmate click the Buy or Sell button on your behalf. Chances are that, soon your ego will kick in, and you’ll be doing it yourself.

An obvious one: don’t overleverage yourself emotionally. Trade at a level of stakes where the money doesn’t matter to you, or even demo, if necessary. This can also help you discover whether your problem is fear of losing money, or fear of being wrong (ego).

Maintain good physical health, and stay positive about life in general. See yourself as a winner. Take time to visualize yourself as a disciplined trader making lots of money.

Write notes for yourself and keep them beside your computer: “Do I really want to be profitable? Then I must do [whatever], I must not do [whatever], etc.” Make sure that you have clear, unambiguous rules, so that executing them, or failing to execute them, becomes a black and white exercise. Every time you’re tempted to stray, read your notes. If you want to succeed badly enough, you will do whatever it takes.

Even better, have a family member or flatmate sit alongside you, and make joint trading decisions. Or have a trading buddy on skype who trades the same system. This can work extremely well, especially if there are discretionary aspects to your system — skype also allows you to share screen images, which is great for discussing price charts — two heads are always better than one, as one person sees things that the other overlooks. In my experience, part of the self-sabotage problem can come from loneliness; we humans are social creatures, and having a buddy, where you vet each others ideas, help keep each other on track discipline-wise, and provide moral support during tough times (sequences of losses), can be a great solution. As the saying goes, a burden shared is a burden halved. A bit like alcoholics supporting each other at AA.

It’s not hard to find a trading buddy, especially as the internet allows global contact. Everybody has friends who are interested in the possibility of making some extra money, and sometimes a complete newbie is better, as they won’t have preconceived trading ideas or strategies that conflict with yours. That puts you in the position of teaching your system, which in itself can be therapeutic, as it helps to subconsciously reinforce the strategies and techniques in your own mind. Then, when you go to break the rules, your buddy will say “hey, but you said......”, pricking your ego; the student is querying the teacher.

Some folk might recommend NLP, hypnosis or other forms of psychotherapy. I’ve never tried these, hence I can’t comment. If you want to become a trader badly enough that you’re willing to spend money on this kind of thing, then it might be worth a try. Your decision.

Finally, the bottom line is that some people aren’t cut out to be traders. If, no matter what you try, you’re unable to implement a proven profitable system due to your own psychological makeup, then IMO it’s time to ask yourself some hard questions. Is it better to be brutally honest with yourself, and quit trading; or to keep on feeding what is effectively a gambling addiction, and losing money? As with any addiction, the longer you continue to nurture it, the more difficult it becomes to quit.

Anyway, just some ideas for you, in no particular order. Good luck.
  • #30
  • Feb 28, 2013 2:30pm Feb 28, 2013 2:30pm
Hi
I really appreciate your help

Quoting hanover
Either you have total confidence that your chosen system (Choros) is profitable, or you don’t. If losses are causing you to doubt a system, then you shouldn’t be trading it, and certainly not on a real money account. However, from what you’re saying, it sounds like you believe in the system. So let’s proceed on the assumption that Choros can be used to trade profitably, and you have no problem putting your faith in it.

So if the problem is ‘you’ rather than the system, then one thing you need to decide is whether it’s predominantly...
I have confidence in the system, it is me that sucks. the system brings me up to 80% a month so far, at about 60% good trades. then it is too much confidence and greed that kick in. I expect same profits every day no matter how market moves, and sometimes it can stay still for days.

thanks for your comment and your time, very interesting suggestions.
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #31
  • Feb 28, 2013 3:16pm Feb 28, 2013 3:16pm
Quoting hanover
...3. Because I have so many losses, they’ve become second nature to me, and I've found it easier not to become emotionally 'married' to the outcome of individual trades. Moreover, it is only the possibility of loss that creates the opportunity for the winners that eventually occur....
I have a notebook where I keep trading/market quotes. One of my favorite comes from Hanover (he may not have said it first, but I saw it his post unquoted so I give him credit):

"Losses are not mistakes, they are the occasional and inevitable consequence of exposing oneself to risk". - Hanover

I will be adding:

"It is only the possibility of loss that creates the opportunity for the winners that eventually occur"-Hanover

If I am ever asked " Why do you visit FF?", well amidst the lies, egos, false bravado, measuring contests and whatever else, nuggets can be found. Thank you.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #32
  • Feb 28, 2013 3:52pm Feb 28, 2013 3:52pm
Quoting hanover
If overtrading, one possible approach is to punish yourself for taking a trade that you shouldn’t, i.e. violating the rules. Every time you transgress, you must make yourself go back to demo trading for a week, or have a week without trading. The same applies if you have a losing week, you must spend the following week in demo (which is generally a good idea anyway, for other reasons), and not return to your live account until you have 3 (or whatever number you choose) consecutive winning weeks.
That sounds great in theory, but you know nobody is going to do that. LOL
  • #33
  • Feb 28, 2013 4:09pm Feb 28, 2013 4:09pm
Quoting 2+2=4ex
That sounds great in theory, but you know nobody is going to do that. LOL
I do, after I wipe my real account I come back to demo ;-)
from Monday I'll try to stick only to rules ;-)
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #34
  • Feb 28, 2013 4:33pm Feb 28, 2013 4:33pm
I don't understand what the thread starter is trying to accomplish here. He states he gets "greedy" and gives back his profits by over-trading. He also says he follows the chronos system and executes trades based on the criteria of that system. So, either the system is flawed or the trader is not following the system (or both).

If he gets greedy and begins to over-trade then he is obviously not following the system. If he is following the system then he is not over-trading and it is the system that sucks.

What more is there to analyze and discuss?
  • #35
  • Feb 28, 2013 4:39pm Feb 28, 2013 4:39pm
Quoting 2+2=4ex
I don't understand what the thread starter is trying to accomplish here. He states he gets "greedy" and gives back his profits by over-trading. He also says he follows the chronos system and executes trades based on the criteria of that system. So, either the system is flawed or the trader is not following the system (or both).

If he gets greedy and begins to over-trade then he is obviously not following the system. If he is following the system then he is not over-trading and it is the system that sucks.

What more is there to analyze and...
the title says it all. the method is great (and it's choros not chronos, few guys that trade it and stick strictly to the rules get very good profit of it and my aim is to get to that point as well), but after some time I "expand" its rules (higher s/l which means more risk etc silly mistakes that I know I should avoid but seems too tempting)
besides I constantly write down descriptions (when I realise about them) of mental problems of traders in first post of this thread. I bet it will help me, and other newbie traders. If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to stay here, maybe you have these problems behind you - good for you
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #36
  • Feb 28, 2013 4:39pm Feb 28, 2013 4:39pm
Your problem I'd imagine is you are admiring your pip count rather than focusing on the trading. So you earn 5%, get complacent and relaxed then make mistakes. The answer is to forget about your morning session. If you must trade the afternoons too then do it with an empty mind about your earlier gains. That's the only difference between your morning and afternoon trading - the success on your mind. Stop thinking about your pip gain and start trading. You think you are a good trader that's the problem. Stop thinking that.
  • #37
  • Feb 28, 2013 4:42pm Feb 28, 2013 4:42pm
Quoting 2+2=4ex
I don't understand what the thread starter is trying to accomplish here. He states he gets "greedy" and gives back his profits by over-trading. He also says he follows the chronos system and executes trades based on the criteria of that system. So, either the system is flawed or the trader is not following the system (or both).

If he gets greedy and begins to over-trade then he is obviously not following the system. If he is following the system then he is not over-trading and it is the system that sucks.

What more is there to analyze and...
The thread starter has a discipline problem. You can see it in his answers. He has stated that he gets greedy after making some money and wants more. Wanting more money is not a trade set-up. Just as with all traders he will either learn to have discipline or he will continue to come to the casino every day and lose more and more money. In his last post he stated he will TRY to follow the rules on Monday. There is another trading day between now and then, does that mean that discipline isn't important until then?
  • #38
  • Feb 28, 2013 4:43pm Feb 28, 2013 4:43pm
Quoting stevexyg
Your problem I'd imagine is you are admiring your pip count rather than focusing on the trading. So you earn 5%, get complacent and relaxed then make mistakes. The answer is to forget about your morning session. If you must trade the afternoons too then do it with an empty mind about your earlier gains. That's the only difference between your morning and afternoon trading - the success on your mind. Stop thinking about your pip gain and start trading. You think you are a good trader that's the problem. Stop thinking that.
I don't think I am good trader (I am not so self confident even if I sound like), I think I can be a good trader. Besides you are right, after getting few% of profit I loose control, it's not relax, but .... hard to say - stupidity? ;-) I think the best way will be to skip afternoon trading If I got target in the morning.
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #39
  • Feb 28, 2013 4:47pm Feb 28, 2013 4:47pm
Quoting Seneca pilot
The thread starter has a discipline problem. You can see it in his answers. He has stated that he gets greedy after making some money and wants more. Wanting more money is not a trade set-up. Just as with all traders he will either learn to have discipline or he will continue to come to the casino every day and lose more and more money. In his last post he stated he will TRY to follow the rules on Monday. There is another trading day between now and then, does that mean that discipline isn't important until then?
discipline is my problem - you're right. Why I mentioned about Monday? because I won't be trading tomorrow (I wasn't today), and the open trades are going my direction now, so will leave them - I was silly I've opened them in first place, and if it was real cash I would be very nervous about it (500 Pounds is the amount I will start my live account with after few months of successful demo trading and getting rid of discipline problems). I already got rid of many of my silly habits, but still have few to fight.
On my way to financial independence - if others can do it - I can do it
  • #40
  • Feb 28, 2013 4:49pm Feb 28, 2013 4:49pm
Quoting Eur Usd
I don't think I am good trader (I am not so self confident even if I sound like), I think I can be a good trader. Besides you are right, after getting few% of profit I loose control, it's not relax, but .... hard to say - stupidity? ;-) I think the best way will be to skip afternoon trading If I got target in the morning.
It seems that you know what all your problems are. It also seems that you simply seek attention and want someone to wallow with you in your own self-pity.

As you know what your difficulties are then simply set about correcting them. Or you could simply lay about and call yourself stupid

Maybe you are..... IDK

get a grip tough love mi amigo
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
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