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Trader or Gambler?

  • #21
  • Jan 14, 2013 6:48am Jan 14, 2013 6:48am
poker as well as trading are skill games with gambling elements.
Twitter: @forexpokerpro
  • #22
  • Jan 14, 2013 7:54am Jan 14, 2013 7:54am
A gambler calculates probabilities. Before he makes his bet, he knows the exact amount of money he can win or lose. Traders donīt.
  • #23
  • Jan 14, 2013 7:58am Jan 14, 2013 7:58am
Quoting Myo
A gambler calculates probabilities. Before he makes his bet, he knows the exact amount of money he can win or lose. Traders donīt.
Not sure about how you trade but for the vast majority of us we know exactly how much we are going to loose and have a pretty good idea of what the profit is, these are things they call stop losses and target profits.
  • #24
  • Jan 14, 2013 7:59am Jan 14, 2013 7:59am
Quoting Myo
A gambler calculates probabilities. Before he makes his bet, he knows the exact amount of money he can win or lose. Traders donīt.
Trader with StopLoss and TakeProfit "knows the exact amount of money he can win or lose"
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #25
  • Jan 14, 2013 7:59am Jan 14, 2013 7:59am
Quoting endroute
Not sure about how you trade but for the vast majority of us we know exactly how much we are going to loose and have a pretty good idea of what the profit is, these are things they call stop losses and target profits.
And?
  • #26
  • Jan 14, 2013 8:00am Jan 14, 2013 8:00am
Endroute, you were quicker than me on this answer !!!
MT4/MT5 EAs/Indicators/Alerts coder
  • #27
  • Jan 14, 2013 9:00am Jan 14, 2013 9:00am
Quoting Patience
I wholeheartedly agree with you. It seems that on this forum people have a hang-up about the word gambler though.

The word trader gets thrown around this forum a lot like it's something special in this world. It's not. I have far more admiration for someone that is running a successful business with employees than someone who sits at home in their pyjamas pushing a few keys on their keyboard.
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  • #28
  • Jan 14, 2013 9:14am Jan 14, 2013 9:14am
The line between gambling and trading/investing is very thin, it isn't far from truth that every way of financial speculation is gambling.
  • #29
  • Jan 14, 2013 10:57am Jan 14, 2013 10:57am
Quoting endroute
Not sure about how you trade but for the vast majority of us we know exactly how much we are going to loose and have a pretty good idea of what the profit is, these are things they call stop losses and target profits.
one and all the same forex trading and gambling
The Phoenix Trader....
  • #30
  • Jan 14, 2013 11:37am Jan 14, 2013 11:37am
To say that trading is akin to playing blackjack is absurd. They are not the same. In blackjack, all one can do is bet on how close they will get to 21 without busting, but making sure they are above the house. The house gets the advantage no matter what by the rules of the game. No matter what, even if you win, you will always be -EV every single time. The game is designed that way. There's nothing you can do that about.

Poker and trading go together because there is a level playing field. It's stacks against stacks, not a stack vs the house. It may be uncertain that a certain card will fall down on the river, but you can make sure the river doesn't get played out by bluffing the other opponents in the hand. Isn't there a thing called "stop-losses" talked about on here? If you agree with the notion that they exist, then how can you say that what that player did was a gamble? They understood exactly what it would take to get us off our hands, did just that. Any shark does that. They find out what weaknesses players have and try to exploit them.




Quote
A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

Taken from here. This is the legal definition of gambling. This is why speculating can't be gambling, just like poker isn't.

Now, this does bring the argument that retail traders are gambling while informed customers are not, or maybe even all institutional customers. However, while the individual retail trader with only a few hundred dollars may not be able to force someone out of their position, if there's enough of them trading at one time, the broker must actively manage that. So, when I trade, I influence the exposure of my broker, albeit very insignificantly. It remains a fact every time I open a trade. If you say otherwise, I would like to understand where you are coming from. There's a chance that the house can go down if a million people started playing the blackjack tables, or they could end up a million times richer like they would in the real world.

To say that speculating is gambling is a defeatist attitude, in my opinion.
Play the players, not the cards.
  • #31
  • Jan 14, 2013 5:56pm Jan 14, 2013 5:56pm
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  • #32
  • Jan 14, 2013 6:05pm Jan 14, 2013 6:05pm
There is a very fine line between gambling and trading. Trading has a predictable outcome only if you know what you are doing while gambling is just based on pure luck. In trading you can tilt the probability to yourself but in gambling you can't because it is pure random and The market is not random.
  • #33
  • Jan 15, 2013 3:26am Jan 15, 2013 3:26am
I see some familiar faces here.
I think trading is professional gambling on odds. Everyone is trying to get some sort of edge to apply cause unlike poker number of possibilities is limitless. In any case, for odds to work money size management should be applied or odds might not arrive before edge starts working. This is main difference between professional trader/ gambler and not so professional. They do not stuck too much hope on any trade.
  • #34
  • Jan 15, 2013 7:05am Jan 15, 2013 7:05am
Quoting taomql4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q-ca...CPGgg&index=28
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Nothing worth having is easy.
  • #35
  • Jan 15, 2013 7:12am Jan 15, 2013 7:12am
Quoting GnarlyPips
Taken from here. This is the legal definition of gambling.
And the definition is:

"A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome."

Is that not what we are doing? Are you religious by any chance? I think they inserted the word speculating in the Oxford English Dictionary to make the gamblers feel better.
Nothing worth having is easy.
  • #36
  • Jan 15, 2013 9:02am Jan 15, 2013 9:02am
Quoting Patience
And the definition is:

"A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome."

Is that not what we are doing? Are you religious by any chance? I think they inserted the word speculating in the Oxford English Dictionary to make the gamblers feel better.
In blackjack, I can't control anything. In poker, I can force my opponent to fold. Therefor, it's under my influence.

Now, if you want to say that trading is gambling, then you're saying that trading is random. Does price really move randomly? I mean, do institutional customers just randomly buy a random amount of lots every time an order is placed? Is it random that a broker would balance out their inventory when the exposure is too great to one side? Are humans that unpredictable?
Play the players, not the cards.
  • #37
  • Jan 15, 2013 9:11am Jan 15, 2013 9:11am
All you people who thinks that trading is not gambling are just playing with words. Talking about price action is a consequence of order flow bla bla bla. First of all, true order flow information is not readily available to retail traders. So none of us know what price will do next. This is why we perform our analysis to speculate, to bet on future price. Just admit what you're doing is gambling. Some of us are better gamblers than others, but we are all GAMBLERS!!!!
NocturnalFX is no longer offering commercial services
  • #38
  • Jan 15, 2013 9:16am Jan 15, 2013 9:16am
Quoting TPOTrader
All you people who thinks that trading is not gambling are just playing with words. Talking about price action is a consequence of order flow bla bla bla. First of all, true order flow information is not readily available to retail traders. So none of us know what price will do next. This is why we perform our analysis to speculate, to bet on future price. Just admit what you're doing is gambling. Some of us are better gamblers than others, but we are all GAMBLERS!!!!
Agree 100 % trading is like poker , if you know your "game" you have odds in your favour , all that matters is long run results . Some traders make a lot of money for few months or even a year or two , but lose everything later . A one can only call himself a trader if he makes living trading or traids for retail , it sounds stupid when people call themselfs traders and they think that they know what they're doing
  • #39
  • Jan 15, 2013 4:23pm Jan 15, 2013 4:23pm
Quoting TPOTrader
All you people who thinks that trading is not gambling are just playing with words. Talking about price action is a consequence of order flow bla bla bla. First of all, true order flow information is not readily available to retail traders. So none of us know what price will do next. This is why we perform our analysis to speculate, to bet on future price. Just admit what you're doing is gambling. Some of us are better gamblers than others, but we are all GAMBLERS!!!!
So Place Your bet ..Who wins ?
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  • #40
  • Jan 15, 2013 4:27pm Jan 15, 2013 4:27pm
Quoting Patience
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2wD5TaMf2k
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I think You know better than that ..don't indulge me ..lol
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