The Illusion of Motion | Forex Factory

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The Illusion of Motion

  • #1
  • First Post: Sep 22, 2012 8:25am Sep 22, 2012 8:25am
Hello,

So considering motion is an illusion it's interesting to consider how all traders are trying to capture that motion between two points


the idea that motion is an illusion comes from Zeno.. if you are not familiar with then I'll introduce

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes


this form seeks:
thoughts, counter examples to prove and disprove if motion is an illusion, and how this idea might be considered when trading
  • #2
  • Sep 22, 2012 8:31am Sep 22, 2012 8:31am
So you see in trading, Zeno argument could be translated as such


Since you can break down time and space into smaller increments infinitely

then at every instance that you view the price on your chart it is motionless... because in every instant it is neither moving to where it is not, nor to where it currently is(since it is already their).
  • #3
  • Sep 22, 2012 12:05pm Sep 22, 2012 12:05pm
Already been disproven. Look it up.
"A is A"
  • #4
  • Sep 22, 2012 12:33pm Sep 22, 2012 12:33pm
Thanks to time approaching zero in this infinite number of steps, the price can arrive at my target. Now with the stop loss, I think there must be another paradox involved of which I am not aware.
  • #5
  • Sep 22, 2012 2:31pm Sep 22, 2012 2:31pm
Quoting catiron
Already been disproven. Look it up.
I've seen several attempts to disprove.. but all of such have been counter exampled

still to this day remains heavily debated..

and if its been disproved please tell me the formula for motion... lol
  • #6
  • Sep 22, 2012 3:17pm Sep 22, 2012 3:17pm
Zeno like all ancient Greeks had no idea of infinite calculus. Riemann proved the convergence of the serie 1/2+1/4+1/8+1/16+... it equals 1. The arrows goes to the target, Achilles catches up the turtle, market hits our stops.

Additionally, markets are discrete; both in time and in value anyways... :nerd:
No greed. No fear. Just maths.
  • #7
  • Edited 4:37pm Sep 22, 2012 4:11pm | Edited 4:37pm
Quoting newyear498
I've seen several attempts to disprove.. but all of such have been counter exampled

still to this day remains heavily debated..

and if its been disproved please tell me the formula for motion... lol
It's disproven because I can, in fact, travel from New York to LA. It's disproven because I can, in fact, move a fork full of food from my plate to my mouth and into my stomach. It's disproven because the EUR/USD was, in fact, north of 1.60 four years ago and today it is about 1.30.

I get the philosophical question, and I don't know the mathematical answer. But I'm pretty sure there is a flaw in Zeno's. Something about infinity being abstract and Achilles and the tortoise being concrete.
"A is A"
  • #8
  • Sep 22, 2012 5:10pm Sep 22, 2012 5:10pm
Quoting newyear498

and if its been disproved please tell me the formula for motion... lol
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mo...las-d_941.html
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #9
  • Sep 22, 2012 7:11pm Sep 22, 2012 7:11pm
God, this forum is full of tons of nut jobs just like EliteTrader... I don't think there is any forums online without nutcases except trading clubs with subscription access only...
  • #10
  • Sep 22, 2012 7:28pm Sep 22, 2012 7:28pm
That may or may not be true but it's interesting to note that both you and I are still posting here.

What do you make of that ?
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #11
  • Sep 22, 2012 9:04pm Sep 22, 2012 9:04pm
Quoting Slim Buffett
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mo...las-d_941.html
seems poorly labeled.. calling velocity motion in that article :/
  • #12
  • Sep 22, 2012 9:08pm Sep 22, 2012 9:08pm
Quoting MasterGamble
God, this forum is full of tons of nut jobs just like EliteTrader... I don't think there is any forums online without nutcases except trading clubs with subscription access only...
Mmm yes.. Socrates was considered a nutjob in his time.. the idea of thinking for yourself if very outcasted in modern society

So I guess you are not a nutjob... and you can't think for yourself.. always needing someone else to think for you..

You'll fit right in MasterGamble
  • #13
  • Sep 22, 2012 9:13pm Sep 22, 2012 9:13pm
It's become evident that most of you off the bat can't comprehend such a truthful observation

I'll present another idea that will get you going even more


Solid Structures are an illusion

show me something solid and I will stand by my reasoning that it is an illusion.. why.. because its simple... ITS NOT SOLID

everything is made of millions of atoms.. whats in between... space

solid objects are an illusion



In the end we have senses.. 5 known senses.. and I am sad so few can comprehend the facts; that the world we sense is NOT THE REAL WORLD BUT OUR INTERPRETATION OF IT!!!!!!



Peace be with you!
  • #14
  • Sep 22, 2012 9:29pm Sep 22, 2012 9:29pm
Quoting catiron
It's disproven because I can, in fact, travel from New York to LA. It's disproven because I can, in fact, move a fork full of food from my plate to my mouth and into my stomach. It's disproven because the EUR/USD was, in fact, north of 1.60 four years ago and today it is about 1.30.

I get the philosophical question, and I don't know the mathematical answer. But I'm pretty sure there is a flaw in Zeno's. Something about infinity being abstract and Achilles and the tortoise being concrete.
in all your examples you depicted from and to examples

from NY to LA
from plate to mouth to stomach
from 1.60 to 1.30


but those are beginning and end points... not motion

points in time.. NY being a point in time, LA being a point in time

not once did you depict motion


what you depicted reminds me of a movie.. the projector changes pictures so what the pictures change position... in the end we have the illusion of motion of screen



I'd really like to be disproved that motion is not an illusion but I cannot agree with your example

and also.. I'm not saying illusion is a bad thing.. seems like people get all freaked out.. so what if its an illusion.. doesn't mean its bad..

  • #15
  • Sep 22, 2012 9:57pm Sep 22, 2012 9:57pm
Quoting newyear498
seems poorly labeled.. calling velocity motion in that article :/
Why do you persist in the pursuit of absurdity?

OK, here's another
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equations_of_motion

Or another simple example. Often, I piss people off. I see a fist raised and suddenly feel pain in my face. A camera is able to catch an "action".

The result is that muscle mass+velocity+degree of being pissed off = degree of black eye, bloody nose or swelled lip.

If motion is an illusion...... well, truthfully that's not even a debate. If you want to be delusional, feel free.
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #16
  • Sep 23, 2012 1:36am Sep 23, 2012 1:36am
Quoting newyear498
It's become evident that most of you off the bat can't comprehend such a truthful observation

I'll present another idea that will get you going even more


Solid Structures are an illusion

show me something solid and I will stand by my reasoning that it is an illusion.. why.. because its simple... ITS NOT SOLID

everything is made of millions of atoms.. whats in between... space

solid objects are an illusion



In the end we have senses.. 5 known senses.. and I am sad so few can comprehend...
things being Solid, the world being what we experience and free will are all illusions motion I haven't really thought about.

but MY intuition (and we know intuition is wrong when it comes to science) is that Isaac Newton already disproved that with P=MV as the force upon an object is what causes the inertia it possesses, I suppose when analyzed in very small frames one cannot see the force acted on the object but as we zoom out we can measure with exactitude where it is headed and how much force is behind it.

unless you go into quantum theory then all bets are off, and that is a field I am not an expert on
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #17
  • Sep 23, 2012 3:39am Sep 23, 2012 3:39am
True that matter is mainly made of void. The distance between an atom and its first eletron is huge in comparison to its size and the distance to the next atom in a molecule is even more bigger. To set ideas, if the hydrogen atom had the size of a green pea, one could fit Eiffel towel between it and its electron. Should this Parisian atom was part of a H2 molecule, the other H atom would be a New Yorker.

Now I have no clue what it has to do with trading...

The illusion of motion produced by the image per image projection of a movie (actually by our brain) is a good choice. Market is DISCRETE, aka quantified.

As far as trading is concerned what you need is the price to be higher than previously when you entered a long position. Does it make any difference this price moves smoothly or teleports to the new price (what it actually does, since discrete)?

You need the distance not the move covering the distance.
No greed. No fear. Just maths.
  • #18
  • Sep 23, 2012 3:45am Sep 23, 2012 3:45am
Quoting the redlion
things being Solid, the world being what we experience and free will are all illusions motion I haven't really thought about.

but MY intuition (and we know intuition is wrong when it comes to science) is that Isaac Newton already disproved that with P=MV as the force upon an object is what causes the inertia it possesses, I suppose when analyzed in very small frames one cannot see the force acted on the object but as we zoom out we can measure with exactitude where it is headed and how much force is behind it.

unless you go into quantum theory...
its interesting,if you look at the more complecated version its quite fascanatinghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UgyTEHo-nHQ
  • #19
  • Sep 23, 2012 3:47am Sep 23, 2012 3:47am
Inserted Video


sorry vid didnt load
  • #20
  • Sep 23, 2012 4:02am Sep 23, 2012 4:02am
Yes I have heard of such experiment and as I understand it is not the observer by observing it is they way the observer observes that creates the crazy problem. There is nothing magical about watching something but to watch it with our tools we interfere with the energy input or some thing like that.... but again this is not my field.

Again I can only speculate with my primate brain that E=mc^2 has something to do with this...as Einstein has told us that Energy and Matter are in fact one and the same.

I think Heisenberg's uncertainty principle has something to do with the non locality ( i think that is how this thing is called)
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
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