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Forex = legal scam

  • #1
  • First Post: Sep 20, 2012 10:09am Sep 20, 2012 10:09am
Ive been trading for +2 years now,and i can only say that forex is most manipulated legal scam there is going.I have seen my share of events in forex that many would scratch their heads,but recent event where crude oil dropped more then 11$ in 5 days time beats everything in market manipulation,and no i didn't trade crude or brent when this happened.I keep coming to forex with different attitudes ,strategies,but at the end its the central banks and government who decide which direction euro goes,what devalues,and what gains,over to years i made gains but all in ive lost 4000$ in that time,while looking back every trade would been successful eventually.I know forexarmy here will disagree and will call me looser trader and such but,im typing this for people who are just starting up and want to say put your money towards something you can lay your hands on ,or learn something useful that would support you later in life.Believe me when the saying goes its better to see someone else burn then get burned yourself.Peace to all and hope it saves some people their hard earned money.
  • #2
  • Edited 11:39am Sep 20, 2012 11:28am | Edited 11:39am
First off lets start with the obvious. You mention you have traded many strategies/systems over the years with different attitudes, and this post seems to be filled with the wrong kind of attitude. At what point did you decide to give up on one approach and move onto the next in the hope that it would work and yes I used the word hope. How much time did you devote to ensuring there was a statistically viable reason to trade it (the system) and over the period did you notice any periods of sustained drawdown, consecutive losses.

You mentioned also that going back over your trades that each one of them would have work out, eventually. How eventual? Was there any correlation to you quitting and then the system suddenly would have come good. You would be surprise how often that occurs when a trader gets fed up with an approach that has been successful over 5 years of testing just because they couldn't get a winner for a month or they went through a period of sideways markets and they lost for 2-3 months consecutively.

Manipulation is just market nature. Here in Australia FMG, a large mining company lost 16+% and the bulk of it was in the last hour of trading due to 'leak news' of the possible inability to remain financial due to their debt, interest payments and the tighter margins due to rising costs and lower ore prices. Low and behold a few days later they 'possible' secured a refinance through 2 major banks and boom 16% was added in the blink of an eye once the trading halt was lifted.

You will get yourself enough opportunities to trade if your patient, that includes trading through the rough times. Too be honest though, your probably right to stop trading because you seem to lack certain traits that traders need, not the least of which is taking ownership of your mistakes and not blaming market manipulation for your inability to remain with a plan for long enough.

I say this because at the end of the day, 2 years is a short period of time to expect to profitable and reading some posts you put in around May regarding your inability for being patient and manage risk (you yourself admitting to taking 10% positions in the 'HOPE' that the market would move in your direction) it is little wonder that you are not coping. My advice if you will take it is to take what I have written, absorb it and learn from what you are doing wrong. The biggest killer is the risk. It effects your mindset once you have opened a trade, it will have you exit trades early when profitable because it is a large gain and it will have you sit on losses because you don't want to realise a 10% loss in a trade (or worse). General rule of thumb is that if you are really trying to fine tune and entry and immediately after getting in you are biting your nails, not comfortable and generally praying for green, then your position size is too big AND you haven't got a clue why you entered.

The tough part for you is now going back to basics, that is provided you have calmed down and ready to face the fact that you hold the keys to your failure not the market. Back to basics includes spending time documenting your past trades and learning from them, working out a system of trading that works for YOU, not something that has been taken from a forum after reading the first post and hitting the demo trail or at the most a small micro account of $500 or what ever it is. IF you cannot do these things then your not ready for trading, simple and easy as that. Only once you have learnt how to trade properly with a low fund account can you move up the size. Just because you have more funds does not mean you will be profitable, if anything it will probably be worse because you will be more eager to take short profits and you will not be able to accept a growing loss due to the emotional pain it will cause you.

I wish you all the best

RT
  • #3
  • Sep 20, 2012 12:07pm Sep 20, 2012 12:07pm
Quoting pinkiaiii
Ive been trading for +2 years now,and i can only say that forex is most manipulated legal scam there is going.I have seen my share of events in forex that many would scratch their heads,but recent event where crude oil dropped more then 11$ in 5 days time beats everything in market manipulation,and no i didn't trade crude or brent when this happened.I keep coming to forex with different attitudes ,strategies,but at the end its the central banks and government who decide which direction euro goes,what devalues,and what gains,over to years i made...
It takes a while to realize the market is not out to get you.

only me..
and i am not being paranoid. The manipulation and all, there are put on for my detriment. They are out to get me, not you.
so cheer up.
  • #4
  • Sep 20, 2012 4:05pm Sep 20, 2012 4:05pm
Quoting Mingary
It takes a while to realize the market is not out to get you.

only me..
and i am not being paranoid. The manipulation and all, there are put on for my detriment. They are out to get me, not you.
so cheer up.
I understand you a little more now Mingary, the most encouraging post I have personally seen from you.

It's been fun, thanks
Come with me if you want to live....
  • #5
  • Sep 20, 2012 4:07pm Sep 20, 2012 4:07pm
Quoting pinkiaiii
Ive been trading for +2 years now,and i can only say that forex is most manipulated legal scam there is going.I have seen my share of events in forex that many would scratch their heads,but recent event where crude oil dropped more then 11$ in 5 days time beats everything in market manipulation,and no i didn't trade crude or brent when this happened.I keep coming to forex with different attitudes ,strategies,but at the end its the central banks and government who decide which direction euro goes,what devalues,and what gains,over to years i made...
Yep, I also believe it is manipulated (ok shoot me purists).

The trick is to use it to your advantage...
Come with me if you want to live....
  • #6
  • Sep 21, 2012 12:18am Sep 21, 2012 12:18am
exactly this is why no real business man suggests any kind of financial market trading.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=383675
  • #7
  • Sep 21, 2012 2:13am Sep 21, 2012 2:13am
Even if the markets are manipulated, it'll be on a larger scale then the lowly traders sitting in their rooms at home trading, You just need to use that manipulation to your advantage at every turn possible.

Obviously it might be difficult to predict certain trends or patterns if what you're expecting doesn't happen due to some unforeseen "manipulation" it's still nothing personal
  • #8
  • Sep 21, 2012 3:52am Sep 21, 2012 3:52am
Yea, no doubt the market are manipulated, but it doesn't mean you cant reach your target or pocket any pips.

Everyone win and lose in life including trading and doing business. Dont tell me doing a business is a sure win trade, because there are more who closed down making a loss or at least wasted time and operation costs before they start making a profit.

I'll give u an example. Every public transport, eg bus route are "manipulated", do u take the bus and end up not reaching your destination? Do u take the bus and expect it to go against the flow of traffic as what u wanted? All u should do is, just board it, even if u drop at next bus stop, at least you are one stop nearer to your target.

Don't give up, just react to what price show u now. We face all sort of obstacles in life, don't we just react and get thru it? Your success will come shortly.

Good luck.
The only winner is the one who survive the longest...
  • #9
  • Sep 21, 2012 7:32am Sep 21, 2012 7:32am
I like ur signature
Quote
There are people that make things happen,There are those who see things happen,and there are those who think What the F*** just happened :]
  • #10
  • Sep 21, 2012 10:04am Sep 21, 2012 10:04am
Market manipulation????

Yea... between a pip or 2 in the entry and exit.. thats it.

If anyone thinks that market is manipulated for more then those 1 or 2 pips that brokers screws us sometime, do this test 10 times: (demo account or real account with smallest lot if you want meaning to the test)

Place a buy and a sell at the same time in same pair.
Place horizontal lines 50 pips above and below your entries.
When the price reach any of the 2 horizontal lines, Close both trades.

Analyze the results:
a) If in any of the 10 tests you have 2 losses...The market is being manipulated against you.

b) If in all 10 times, you have one winner and one loser... then, your lossing does not come from manipulation... it comes from trading the wrong direction more then 50% of the time.

This may sound like a stupid test... and probable realize that no point in doing it .... but makes us think how stupid we can be and not be able to create sound strategies with something that can go only 2 ways and is cheap to do.

Just need to go back to the drawing board... forget all worthless and dumb indicators and you are in your way.

J.
  • #11
  • Sep 21, 2012 10:29am Sep 21, 2012 10:29am
Are you refuting my statement on market manipulation and teaching me about market not being manipulated?

If so, I think you don't get what I am trying to infer in market manipulation.

I will just summarize in one paragraph.

Market is not due to manipulation because of broker prices/spreads/market maker doing/spikes in my opinions, these are individual house rules, just like casino. My opinion on market manipulations refer to individual governments having the power to execute different policies to change how their own market move in their preferred time frames to cater to their own economics' needs. My advice, yet you don't need a test: Stare at a chart with all the data till you get it.


Quoting jeuro
Market manipulation????

Yea... between a pip or 2 in the entry and exit.. thats it.

If anyone thinks that market is manipulated for more then those 1 or 2 pips that brokers screws us sometime, do this test 10 times: (demo account or real account with smallest lot if you want meaning to the test)

Place a buy and a sell at the same time in same pair.
Place horizontal lines 50 pips above and below your entries.
When the price reach any of the 2 horizontal lines, Close both trades.

Analyze the results:
a) If in any of the 10 tests...
The only winner is the one who survive the longest...
  • #12
  • Sep 21, 2012 10:43am Sep 21, 2012 10:43am
Come on..market manipulation? Really? This market is one of the most decentralized markets in the world, can't really seem to think of anything else. On Brent crude, global factors have an impact more on this instrument than any other - re: current protests, etc.
  • #13
  • Sep 21, 2012 11:18am Sep 21, 2012 11:18am
Quoting kinspk
Are you refuting my statement on market manipulation and teaching me about market not being manipulated?

If so, I think you don't get what I am trying to infer in market manipulation.

I will just summarize in one paragraph.

Market is not due to manipulation because of broker prices/spreads/market maker doing/spikes in my opinions, these are individual house rules, just like casino. My opinion on market manipulations refer to individual governments having the power to execute different policies to change how their own market move in their preferred...

Nope.. not refuting your statement ... I did not read it until now... my post was related to the first post.

But now that I read it,,,
Technically speaking Government(s) "Policies" does not move the market.
(use to.. with interest rates. .. but not anymore)
The only thing that move the price is when A specific Central bank (BoJ and SNB are the only 2) become a participant and sell huge amount of their currency in the open market to depreciated .

Time frame??? have no idea what you mean by that.
They do it when their Currency gets soooo expensive that they can not be competitive with their exports... nothing to do with time frame...

If the EUR/CHF would drop to 1.1900 in the next second.... The SNB would sell CHF right away... as they said.. whatever they need.

J.
  • #14
  • Sep 21, 2012 11:45am Sep 21, 2012 11:45am
Technically speaking Government(s) "Policies" does not move the market.
(use to.. with interest rates. .. but not anymore)

Not trying to debate with you, but I don't think the statement is right. When policies implemented, it doesn't rise or fall immediately, doesn't mean it doesn't move the market. If you are doing some specific business, you will feel how much eg, your currency, or the policies actually have an impact on you. And different countries have different ways of handling their own economy, not going to specific which country though.

Technically, we see repetitions in price formations, fundamentally, it's just a business cycle, where price move out of imbalance trying to find a balance at different specific time.

We trade mostly technical and short terms, unlike those holding trades for months and years, therefore we are not affected by these kind of "manipulations"

It's up to individual's belief, nothing wrong about that even the facts show otherwise.
The only winner is the one who survive the longest...
  • #15
  • Sep 21, 2012 1:51pm Sep 21, 2012 1:51pm
Quoting kinspk
Technically speaking Government(s) "Policies" does not move the market.
(use to.. with interest rates. .. but not anymore)

Not trying to debate with you, but I don't think the statement is right. When policies implemented, it doesn't rise or fall immediately, doesn't mean it doesn't move the market. If you are doing some specific business, you will feel how much eg, your currency, or the policies actually have an impact on you. And different countries have different ways of handling their own economy, not going to specific which country...
Well.. my statement is right... unless you want to mentions some Government Internal policy that affect the market the way you mention.
The Forex Market is never out of balance... It is balanced tick per tick.

If I am doing business only in my own country, of course all of "my" Government policy can affect my business... but is very much irrelevant to the exchange rate with other currencies.

Like I said... can you mention any Government Policy that is "intended" to change the rates of exchange?

I already mentioned the only policy I know..."Sell" their currency in the open market.

The repetitions you see on the charts are not due some "Government Policy" ... they are just plain supply and demand... at certain prices the crap from one country seem cheap to other countries and things move the other way... The only fundamental behind everything.

Nowdays all countries are in so deep in crap that everyone would like to have the cheapest currency possible without causing inflation...but is the rest of the world that would decide how cheap or expensive they want to pay for it.

J.
  • #16
  • Sep 21, 2012 2:41pm Sep 21, 2012 2:41pm
The demand and supply are driven by the economics. When there are risk aversion, the demand for safe heaven currency increase. And it is resulted by different government's actions.

I think this is ending in a loop. If u get it u get it if u don't it doesn't affected anyone though. I not gonna gain anything for that. As long u make profit that will do. Personally these doesnt affect my trading as well as i trade technically.
The only winner is the one who survive the longest...
  • #17
  • Sep 21, 2012 3:09pm Sep 21, 2012 3:09pm
Quoting kinspk
The demand and supply are driven by the economics. When there are risk aversion, the demand for safe heaven currency increase. And it is resulted by different government's actions.

I think this is ending in a loop. If u get it u get it if u don't it doesn't affected anyone though. I not gonna gain anything for that. As long u make profit that will do. Personally these doesnt affect my trading as well as i trade technically.
Sure...
I guess, you can not come up with a specific Government policy with the intend to change the exchange rates with other currencies. (like you said.."attempting to manipulate" the currency market ).

J.
  • #18
  • Sep 21, 2012 6:31pm Sep 21, 2012 6:31pm
Quoting jeuro
Sure...
I guess, you can not come up with a specific Government policy with the intend to change the exchange rates with other currencies.
You seems want to convince me in the market not being manipulated, but yet I am not trying to convince you the market is manipulated. You had not totally get the meaning of what I had all along trying to infer on "manipulation". I end up being drag into this long winded conversation.

Before you keep trying to dig out questions for others, I felt maybe you should just justify yourself why it wasn't manipulated. Maybe you can explain what drive the demand and supply? What drive the price? What cause the market sentiment? Why are there an inflow and outflow of individual currency? If China implement trade sanctions on Japan, how will the currency affected? What actions did Japan did to solve their export crisis? All these will automatically answer your own questions, that save me time on non necessary purposes.

It's like, I don't believe in God, and you trying to convince me, and I ask you to bring God to show me. I'm not going to change your thoughts, but if you prefer to look at things just a narrow way, so be it.

I trade fully technical, and all these are non necessary for my own trading style, I am just expressing my own views of what I experienced and what I learned thru my journey. It doesn't matter if it doesn't affect my trading.

I truly realised why some trader said, its better to keep what you know to yourself rather than sharing with others who doesn't appreciate or doesn't believe it.

I am ending this now, because the purpose of me here was to give pinkiaiii some moral support, and I do partially agreed on his statement, though manipulation doesn't cause someone to lose money. Hope I made this clear enough. This is getting off topic, if you need some kind of fulfillment, do PM me, I will try my best to assist you if I can afford some time for you.
The only winner is the one who survive the longest...
  • #19
  • Sep 22, 2012 3:02am Sep 22, 2012 3:02am
Quoting pinkiaiii
Ive been trading for +2 years now,and i can only say that forex is most manipulated legal scam there is going.I have seen my share of events in forex that many would scratch their heads,but recent event where crude oil dropped more then 11$ in 5 days time beats everything in market manipulation,and no i didn't trade crude or brent when this happened.I keep coming to forex with different attitudes ,strategies,but at the end its the central banks and government who decide which direction euro goes,what devalues,and what gains,over to years i made...
Oh wow .... after +2 years you have certainly seen what there is to see on the markets
Crude oil is a fierce instrument and if you are not a very experienced trader with a proven plan you should not even consider getting near it. An 11 $ drop in 5 days - that is opportunity! and if you happened to loose money on that move then it is because you were trading what you thought the market should be doing instead of trading what your charts were telling you the market was actually doing.
I love trading the oil futures (CL) because of the volatility ... but again if you are not successful trading the slower moving markets do NOT trade oil.
  • #20
  • Sep 22, 2012 3:35am Sep 22, 2012 3:35am
You seems want to convince me in the market not being manipulated, but yet I am not trying to convince you the market is manipulated. You had not totally get the meaning of what I had all along trying to infer on "manipulation". I end up being drag into this long winded conversation.

Yes, you are right... I did not get what was that you are trying to infer on manipulation.

I am talking about this... according to Merrian-Webster dictionary:
"to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage"


Before you keep trying to dig out questions for others, I felt maybe you should just justify yourself why it wasn't manipulated. Maybe you can explain what drive the demand and supply? "The Participants" of the currency market are the one that drive demand and supply... and these are of different types, and "all" have different reasons to buy or sell a currency at a specific point on time. The trade sector (non-speculative) is probably a big portion of the market, they don't go by "sentiment". In a case of and import/export business for example, the drive is to make a buck, they would exchange at whatever price and whatever currency if they think they will make a buck in the product they handle. The people/entities in this category is huge in numbers.... it impossible to know all their specific reason to why exchange at one specific price.

Speculator go by sentiment... you by your tech analysis, some others by fundamentals, some other don't have a clue why. All speculator have different sentiments and it is impossible to know all their specific reason to why exchange at one specific price.

See... it is almost insane to think that some one Country "Government Policy" is meant to change their own currency rate of exchange for another. The ONLY action that does affect the market is when A Central Bank become a participant and sell loads of their currency in the open market, making the supply larger then the demand, thus Price decrease.

What drive the price?
What I just mentioned

What cause the market sentiment?
Shoot... I don't know what cause the sentiment of the "participants"... I don't know what causes yours, nor anybody else... but is not the sentiment that change the prices... it is the action that goes with that sentiment... I mean, if you think the euro will go up... but you do not place an order, you sentiment is irrelevant to price change.

Why are there an inflow and outflow of individual currency?
Multiple reasons as stated above
If China implement trade sanctions on Japan, how will the currency affected? Most likely it wont. China does not let their currency float against others.


What actions did Japan did to solve their export crisis? Not much they can do if the deal involve China's Yuan.

I trade fully technical, and all these are non necessary for my own trading style, I am just expressing my own views of what I experienced and what I learned thru my journey. It doesn't matter if it doesn't affect my trading.

I understand this point... and there is thousands speculator like you you, that Government Policy are irrelevant to when and how you buy a currency. .. and obviously irrelevant to the non-speculative sector... sooo
how some "one" Government policy change the Prices???


I am ending this now, because the purpose of me here was to give pinkiaiii some moral support, and I do partially agreed on his statement, though manipulation doesn't cause someone to lose money. I agree with this I Hope I made this clear enough. This is getting off topic, if you need some kind of fulfillment, do PM me, I will try my best to assist you if I can afford some time for you.

In the contrary to your moral support to Pinkiaii, I totally disagree with his post and with the title of the thread. Money exchange (forex) is not a scam. Non-speculators do it as a need of their usual trade/travel or whatever... Speculators do it voluntarily. Where is the scam?

How can I be sympathetic or supportive of someone that talk about forex being a scam, having seen a share of events and in the same sentence say the last one was in Crude Oil??? sure,, Crude oil is Forex.. right?


Bottom lines is... yes, there is some Countries via their Central Banks that manipulate the market... how? by becoming a "participant" and affecting the supply of their currency... Such as the BoJ and the SNB . Any other Policy that a country implement in their own land "may" have an affect in the exchange market, but those policies are meant only to fix some internal crap... not to manipulate forex.

There is no other manipulation possible to the exchange market by anyone else. Other then a couple pips here and there by Banks and Brokers.
It is to big and too complex in interests to be possible.

J.
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