Academic achievers = Better traders? | Page 3 | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

A better Editor for mql is available. 100x better than MetaEditor 20 replies

Broker needs to do better, much better 4 replies

repository for academic research 4 replies

Better momentum and better Sine wave indicator 0 replies

Is Better still better? 1 reply

Academic achievers = Better traders?

  • #41
  • Jul 19, 2012 10:45am Jul 19, 2012 10:45am
Quoting thelws
Hey skenobi,

Have you ever trader as a local on bursa? I'm thinking of jumping in now that they have lifted a lot of the cert requirements.
Erm... Illiquid and non-transparent M'sian stock/futures market vs FX market? Is there really a choice? I wouldn't join Bursa even if they gave me a chair for free.

Quoting HiddenGap
If you cannot handle being wrong most of the time, then trading isn't for you. And most high academic achievers only know being right all the time. Trading is a wakeup call and many may not be able to pick up the phone........
I also think HiddenGap and CrucialPoint hit it right on the nail.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #42
  • Jul 19, 2012 3:31pm Jul 19, 2012 3:31pm
Quoting pemully
as Richard Dennis said creativity is needed when designing systems, optimize every second,but once you are through believe your system to be beyond further improvement ....then follow it like a dumb person, creativity at this point will ruin you.
this is where creative people fail...you have to be schizoid in your personality.
richard dennis was a good trader. it seems to me that he found a good way of interpreting trading.
  • #43
  • Jul 19, 2012 7:40pm Jul 19, 2012 7:40pm
Quoting skenobi
Erm... Illiquid and non-transparent M'sian stock/futures market vs FX market? Is there really a choice? I wouldn't join Bursa even if they gave me a chair for free.



I also think HiddenGap and CrucialPoint hit it right on the nail.
Isn't the whole idea of trading as a local to get DMA with all the visibility into orderbooks and stuff? Plus FCPO is pretty liquid if you ask me. Probably not for others though.
  • #44
  • Jul 19, 2012 7:51pm Jul 19, 2012 7:51pm
Quoting thelws
Isn't the whole idea of trading as a local to get DMA with all the visibility into orderbooks and stuff? Plus FCPO is pretty liquid if you ask me. Probably not for others though.
I may be wrong (and it doesn't really matter to me if I am since I'm only interested in forex), but commodities is a finite asset class and can be cornered. If one still needs to have access to orderbooks and such to make a success out of it, then one is no better than institutional FX traders who can't make it in the real world as private traders because they've become too reliant on knowing customer flows.

My two cents tho.

And in any case, I salute successful commodities and equities traders (and I know a few) who have done well in their respective markets. They have succeeded where I know I could not. And good for them. Maybe I'm just too lazy to pioneer. *shrugs*

EDIT: I'm not knocking "knowing customer flows" and "order books" as a way to make money. I support any legal way for money-making. It's just not how I personally trade.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #45
  • Jul 19, 2012 8:00pm Jul 19, 2012 8:00pm
Quoting skenobi
I may be wrong (and it doesn't really matter to me if I am since I'm only interested in forex), but commodities is a finite asset class and can be cornered. If one still needs to have access to orderbooks and such to make a success out of it, then one is no better than institutional FX traders who can't make it in the real world as private traders because they've become too reliant on knowing customer flows.

My two cents tho.

And in any case, I salute successful commodities and equities traders (and I know a few) who have done well in their respective...
No worries. I trade fine on forex without orderbook info anyway. But I'm at a phase where I want to increase my size. I'm looking for the safest fastest and easiest way to bulk up.

Having inside information is akin to picking durian runtuh heh. I was really hoping there are some old skoolers who know about bursa. There really is not much info on these guys. They do a bad job at distributing info. No wonder they have low local participation.
  • #46
  • Jul 19, 2012 8:14pm Jul 19, 2012 8:14pm
Quoting thelws
No worries. I trade fine on forex without orderbook info anyway. But I'm at a phase where I want to increase my size. I'm looking for the safest fastest and easiest way to bulk up.

Having inside information is akin to picking durian runtuh heh. I was really hoping there are some old skoolers who know about bursa. There really is not much info on these guys. They do a bad job at distributing info. No wonder they have low local participation.
Maybe they just want to keep the info to themselves?

... which brings us back to the notion of how academic achievement only contributes to create the clubby, insider "old boy network" in financial markets. While they were institutionals, they may have thought they were hot sh!t, but once they traded their own accounts and trading blind, it was only then they'd find out if they had become better traders as a result (or not)...

(just thought I'd help the threadstarter along to bring us back on-topic. )
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #47
  • Jul 19, 2012 8:24pm Jul 19, 2012 8:24pm
Quoting skenobi
Maybe they just want to keep the info to themselves?

... which brings us back to the notion of how academic achievement only contributes to create the clubby, insider "old boy network" in financial markets. While they were institutionals, they may have thought they were hot sh!t, but once they traded their own accounts and trading blind, it was only then they'd find out if they had become better traders as a result (or not)...

(just thought I'd help the threadstarter along to bring us back on-topic. )
lol yes, my apologies for derailing the subject.

Skenobi, do you have private message on? I'll pm you if you don't mind.
  • #48
  • Jul 19, 2012 8:38pm Jul 19, 2012 8:38pm
Quoting thelws
lol yes, my apologies for derailing the subject.

Skenobi, do you have private message on? I'll pm you if you don't mind.
No worries. My PM is on, AFAIK.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #49
  • Jul 19, 2012 8:56pm Jul 19, 2012 8:56pm
While I don't believe academics alone will make someone a good trader, there is something to be said for why university graduates with high grades are sought by the big financial firms (going kinda in context to the OP's post):

 

  1. They (potential job candidate) have shown they can dedicate themselves to a hard task over many years (keeping high grades over 4-6 years of intensive schooling.)
  2. They might have studied a discipline that requires very critical analysis, minimal errors, and creativity (Engineering, Sciences, Computer Science.. ect... Despite what you might expect, firms don't just look for finance and math majors.)
  3. There's a large pool of people who want to get in the industry with these credentials. Given the above, why settle for less when so many educated people are available?
  4. Firms love hiring clean slates who are quick learners. They will hire people with industry experience, but usually only when the person has had a track record of success. It's easier to train someone new to do what you want then try to break habits of bad traders with "experience."


Again, despite this, having a university education won't make you a good trader. It doesn't quite work that way on its own. It's not about what components make up a good trader... just about the traits that make up successful traders which co-inside with the ones it takes to work through a hard discipline of study for 4-6 years.

FXGears.com
  • #50
  • Jul 19, 2012 9:19pm Jul 19, 2012 9:19pm
Quoting Jack_Larkin

  1. Firms love hiring clean slates who are quick learners. They will hire people with industry experience, but usually only when the person has had a track record of success. It's easier to train someone new to do what you want then try to break habits of bad traders with "experience."

This is true. This, and the fact that clean slates are cheaper to hire. As for bad traders with bad habits, the only solution is not to hire them. I've had CVs of good experienced traders pass my desk on numerous occasions and have always been shot down by HR managers who prefer to hire cheap.

I'd rather have a good experienced trader on my team than waste time teaching rookies who will either crash and burn, or jump ship when they become "good".

Some might ask, "but how the heck are rookies ever gonna get experience if they're faced with recruiters like you?"

To that, I'd just answer with a shrug. I don't think I have an answer to that at the moment.

And once upon a time, I was a rookie once, too. Go figure.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #51
  • Jul 19, 2012 10:53pm Jul 19, 2012 10:53pm
Quoting skenobi

(just thought I'd help the threadstarter along to bring us back on-topic. )
Frankly my question have been answered so I don't mind other subjects now since I am learning something new about how institution traders trade and the fact that stock markets are being rigged.
Riding the order flow
  • #52
  • Jul 19, 2012 11:36pm Jul 19, 2012 11:36pm
I think I may be beginning to understand why for most jobs good grades usually make better employees. People with good grades from what I have seen tend to put up with boring subjects and get on with the routine of memorizing even if they disagree with the content.

Being in the oil industry I did say perhaps 99% of the engineer jobs in this field doesn't require any engineering degree or deep engineering knowledge because of on the job training, most of the post can be done by 4th form graduates if they go through the provided training. After a while in the job the learning curve will flatten and everyday becomes a boring routine, day after day. No emotions will be involve. Doing routine jobs well consistently is usually the domain of academic achievers IMO.

Trading on the other hand involve dealing with emotions in a way I will never experience if I never traded in my life. It also seems like a routine to me, but a very different routine from my day job where no emotions are involved.
Riding the order flow
  • #53
  • Jul 20, 2012 10:50am Jul 20, 2012 10:50am
It seems like you could find an answer to this question with another. Of the people you've gone to school with, were the most intelligent and capable the one's who got the best grades?

In my experience it's not even close. The top ten students of my graduating class was a "who's who" of brown-nosing dimwits with no self esteem and paranoia about finding approval from others and well versed in the ideas of group think and back room handshakes. Their parents were at school 3 times a week lobbying with teachers for extra credit and grade changes. It's a complete farce, and that culture still permeates the mainstream business world.

Look at history and you'll see that most of the great innovators and thinkers came from humble beginnings outside of academia, others were downright shunned by academia.

Steve Jobs, Dropout
Bill Gates, Dropout
Einstein was a C student
Edison only went to school for a few months. His teachers thought he was very slow.

The list goes on. People obsessed with GPA are simply bent on maintaining the status quo. Thinkers make upper management nervous, a high GPA equates to knowing not how to think, but how to do what you're told.
  • #54
  • Jul 20, 2012 4:32pm Jul 20, 2012 4:32pm
Quoting greenpath
Look at history and you'll see that most of the great innovators and thinkers came from humble beginnings outside of academia, others were downright shunned by academia.
For the most part your right, academia rewards ass-kissers and brown-nosers, but exceptional people will always rise to the top, regardless of the status quo. I think there are plenty of extremely bright, innovative people in academia, who maybe use it more as a means to an end than anything else. For example, it would be difficult to do certain kinds of scientific research, without access to some kind of lab, or the kind of facilities that universities have. And you would need to have some kind of status in the academic community as well.
  • #55
  • Jul 20, 2012 4:51pm Jul 20, 2012 4:51pm
Quoting Aldente
but exceptional people will always rise to the top, regardless of the status quo.


SIMPLY NOT TRUE
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #56
  • Jul 20, 2012 4:55pm Jul 20, 2012 4:55pm
Quoting Aldente
but exceptional people will always rise to the top, regardless of the status quo.
In part, the logic is
exceptional people never fall from grace

We all know that simply is NOT True
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #57
  • Jul 20, 2012 4:59pm Jul 20, 2012 4:59pm
Quoting Slim Buffett
SIMPLY NOT TRUE
Then they aren't exceptional. Exceptional people FIND ways to win.
  • #58
  • Jul 20, 2012 5:24pm Jul 20, 2012 5:24pm
Quoting Aldente
Then they aren't exceptional. Exceptional people FIND ways to win.
For how long?

Tiger Woods was exceptional.

Jesse Livermore was exceptional (but committed suicide)

True.... even Bill Clinton was exceptional. A Rhodes Scholar who bounced back after a penis sucking incident.

So that begs the question;

Do you have to be exceptional to be a trader ??
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #59
  • Jul 20, 2012 11:24pm Jul 20, 2012 11:24pm
This has been a fascinating read! For my 2 cents, I come from an academic background and I have just this to sum it up. Most academics are useless at anything else. Throughout my time at university I have seen one consistent thing at every single level, people don't think for themselves.

Dopey hit the nail on the head

Quoting Dopey
A significant difference between trading and college is structure. In uni everything is laid out for the student. Everything from the series of classes they take to the form used for writing papers, doing research, etc. As one progresses through graduate school, more choice is allowed, but it's still heavily structured. If a student recognizes and understands how the game is played, then they can be successful with lots of work.
At the undergraduate level students are spoon fed by the lecturer. At doctoral level (Ph.D) I have seen student who are awarded the title of "Dr." unable to answer during their research seminar and stand there mindless waiting for the supervisor to step in. It can be an embarrassingly long wait for the student! I firmly believe that not enough thinking goes on in the academic world.

Quoting Binyamin
So skenobi or anyone here. If academic grades is not the best predictor of trading success, what will you look for in graduates that will ensure that you pick winners?
Just two things

  1. Thinking for themselves
  2. Common sense


The only "thinking" academic circle left on the planet I think is TED. Listen to this economist at TED

Inserted Video
.
One of the million things He mentions is how in the 1950's being "competent" got you to heaven and now it's the bottom of the ladder. I think that may have been true 10 years ago. But with the state of university at the moment, I think being "competent" may again get you to heaven.
  • #60
  • Jul 21, 2012 2:12pm Jul 21, 2012 2:12pm
I put a lot of effort in school but could only manage below average results....I really got depressed coz it was like I received a death sentence.

went to college and did an almost worthless diploma...looked for a job for two years ...finally got a job that paid peanuts and an abusive boss.

I am not complaining in any way,if the gods saw it fit to fuck me like this who am I to complain?

took to trading with the same hardwork and zest hoping to somehow make it against all odds ....and it paid off and paid off big.
wo-yoy! wo-yoy! wo-yoy! wo-yoi! wo-yoy-yoy-yoy!
0 traders viewing now