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Stop Hunting

Quoting Darkstar
So if I rob your house and I get caught, as long as I return the goods you'll hire me to monitor your alarm? It seems a little odd that you would do such a thing.
Darkstar,

We work in a den of thieves. Our objective is not to eliminate them, but minimize their impact on us. That's how I see it. To me, a broker that will return the money is 100 times better than one that wouldn't, and 100 times worst than one that would never take it in the first place. I'm just not quite convinced that 1) there is a broker who wouldn't do this and 2) this one did it with the intent to steal.

stockwet
Quoting stockwet
Darkstar,

We work in a den of thieves. Our objective is not to eliminate them, but minimize their impact on us. That's how I see it. To me, a broker that will return the money is 100 times better than one that wouldn't, and 100 times worst than one that would never take it in the first place. I'm just not quite convinced that 1) there is a broker who wouldn't do this and 2) this one did it with the intent to steal.

stockwet
Point taken.
Quoting mrmikal
OK...your last paragraph undermines your third point. What makes you think this ISN'T the broker's fault? and if even if it WAS the banks fault, why would you continue with the broker??? repoire? It just goes to show you'd easily get burned again...and apparently you don't mind endangering the other's on this forum as well...
I don't know. I don't trade with this broker. I may go to this broker if they fix the problem, but, only in the event that I become unhappy with my current brokers, which has not happened.

Quoting mrmikal
I agree, with most of what you're saying, though...stop hunting does exist, this isn't what I would call a problem. It's the name of the game. These stop hunting patterns can actually be exploited, which is why I could careless that they happen. Stop hunting occurs (in my opinion) more to trigger orders and commissions, not necessarily to act as reasons to directly profit from the trade going wrong (like a broker wanting to take the opposite position).
I feel the same. Stop hunting does not affect me due to my trading strategy.

Quoting mrmikal
What gets me about this thread is that you go through all this trouble to post and get us to acknowledge something that we all know is true on some level and yet in the end, we're still left with a predator.
First, be a little more patient. I'm not your enemy. I'll give everyone an update on who the broker is and whether or not they resolved the issue.

Second, I got fired up over this because just last week I was reading a thread where the debate about stop hunting raged. Several experienced traders were trying to explain to new traders that this doesn't really happen - it's a figment of the imaginations of other, more paranoid traders. Do you really believe that everyone, especially new traders, know and acknowledge that stop hunting exists? I think that's a little naive. I think this thread will help more people understand what the problem looks like, especially new traders.

Third, if you're happy with your current broker, why do you care so much to know about another one that may not be so good?


Quoting mrmikal
However, if your point was to prove that your data was messed up by a broker who you think stop hunted you...we get your point. I think.
It wasn't the only point, as I already indicated.
Quoting stockwet
Darkstar,

We work in a den of thieves. Our objective is not to eliminate them, but minimize their impact on us. That's how I see it. To me, a broker that will return the money is 100 times better than one that wouldn't, and 100 times worst than one that would never take it in the first place. I'm just not quite convinced that 1) there is a broker who wouldn't do this and 2) this one did it with the intent to steal.

stockwet
OK...intent to steal or not, I don't think this resolves the problem because it could happen again...even he does return the money because 1) If he does, he's setting himself up to fail (the broker, that is) because he would have to return money whenever someone disagreed with bank pricing. 2) He would have to drop the bank that supports him now, which probably provides the platform or the components he's currently using...and that would be too costly.

This is not a winning situation for anyone...face it...just because he returns the money will not do anything but encourage broker bankruptcy (and your friend would lose his account, potentially...think RefcoFX). I say your friend should seriously think twice about trading with them unless they change the underlying bank they're using or this is just going to happen again. Sorry, that's my opinion on that.
Quoting mrmikal
OK...intent to steal or not, I don't think this resolves the problem because it could happen again...even he does return the money because 1) If he does, he's setting himself up to fail (the broker, that is) because he would have to return money whenever someone disagreed with bank pricing. 2) He would have to drop the bank that supports him now, which probably provides the platform or the components he's currently using...and that would be too costly.

This is not a winning situation for anyone...face it...just because he returns the money will not do anything but encourage broker bankruptcy (and your friend would lose his account, potentially...think RefcoFX). I say your friend should seriously think twice about trading with them unless they change the underlying bank they're using or this is just going to happen again. Sorry, that's my opinion on that.
I'm certainly pliable on this. I think you raise some good points. I think you have a valid opinion. It's a shame we can't do more to these guys to keep them honest than to kick and scream.
Quoting stockwet
Third, if you're happy with your current broker, why do you care so much to know about another one that may not be so good?
All of your other points are duly noted, however this point isn't really just about me. It's about protecting others here. There are potentially dozens of traders in this forum in the same boat or heading towards it and could benefit from this increase in knowledge.

I was part of the discussion you were talking about, and the point was less about whether or not it does happen versus WHY it happens. A lot of people believe stop hunting occurs because the broker themselves take positions opposite their clients. While we don't doubt that contrarian positions do exist, it's not the foremost cause of stop hunting...that was the point (or at least mine). Stop hunting occurs for a few reasons, most notably liquidity generation and commission generation. If stops weren't hunted, prices would range very tightly providing little opportunity to profit. Stop hunting clears orders from barriers so that directional shifts can be determined more easily. This then triggers larger trades in the direction of the fundamentals.

Let's just say it's a little odd for someone to go into so much trouble to prove that stop hunting goes, and quite frankly sound a little upset that it happens, yet protect the very entity that could be the culprit. It's odd, but understandable if you were trying to show something we all know to be true to some extent.
give us a name!
This is what I was taking about:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/purple11/new.gif


The quote feed that comes into the platform can be turned off and quotes can be done manually if need be. So, you have the ability to move the spot prices at will, independent of the prices feed that you receive from outside. You see you can not only chage the Spread but also the actual market FEED which you want your investors to see. and lots will get triggered at YOUR own inhouse Feed.
purple, this screenshot is INSANE!

which broker is that? you must tell us.
Quoting peas
purple, this screenshot is INSANE!

which broker is that? you must tell us.
You see if I tell you, what will happen?

Nothing; only a few more IBs will read this and join them; it will only spread rather than curtail things.

And check out the screen price in pic, good old times for Dollar.
Stockwet,

I'm a newbie and I have read earlier about stop hunting, but never with so much concrete proof that it happens..Im not sure but will Direct Access Trading solves this problem, i read that you directly deal with the live markets not through any brokers..is that possible..

Well, im not sure where to go or should I trust my current broker or i have to test him too with other brokers charts now, even if your brokers returns your money and your friends....just don;t let him off the hook...whats the guarentee that he won't cheat newbies like us..who wouldn;t be able to cross check charts often or won't even suspect something like this happens just that we may think offf just another bad trade

you got to do something...if you taken the lead....

just my 2cents...
Ok I am being rained with PMs from you guys...

There are two brokers that I know have been using this method :

1. FXCM

2. ActForex, Inc.

From where I see, ONLY the brokers with JAVA based platform can have such system in place, so stay away from JAVA platforms.
Oanda use JAVA based platform. Do you mean to say that they have the ability to do this to their retail customers?
Quoting Purple
From where I see, ONLY the brokers with JAVA based platform can have such system in place, so stay away from JAVA platforms.

what this has to do with java on the client side? if data is manipulated, then it is happening on the server side.
I'm not insane; my mother had me tested.
  • Post #55
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  • Edited 7:27am May 11, 2006 7:22am | Edited 7:27am
Quoting stockwet
Sorry, it doesn't burst my bubble. Clearly, you didn't read my entire post. I'm well aware that the SUBSEQUENT candle reached 1.2833. But, not the candle that the stopout occurred on.

Here, this will be a bit more clear. I have images from the 1 minute candle. Since you seem well connected to the OTC market, please find me a broker or bank that traded EURUSD at 1.2826 at 2:15 PM EST as this broker did. The first image is the stop hunt, or, if you will, the errant price bar. The second is from InterbankFX.

interseting to see chart and price before stop hunt...compare that with chart from interbank fx....
it is obvius that your "broker" make differnet prices in quiet market...look at candles....at your "broker" they sems a bit bigger...so you can see that they manipulate price even in quiet market....
i trade with Oanda...for last 4 years...they are now bucket shop (2-3 years ago they were great)...they do similar thing..but you must paid attention to see it...
i remember last year they have HUGE spike in eurusd (more than 100 pips in 2 seconds)...they said it was error with price feed...no it was not...they usually say that Oanda is a market maker...and that price is qouted by complex combination of softwer and hardwer...most of time that is true...and in quiet market i think they involve few humans too
btw. they restored customers trades and lost or earned money after that spike (spike occured 7/11/05)
Quoting peas
purple, this screenshot is INSANE!

which broker is that? you must tell us.
Unfortunately, since FX is an unregulated market there are tons of dodgy characters out there practising in it...Any broker can (and will) quote you any price from any feed that they so desire...I dont think that stop hunting is necessarily rife in the industry, but after your examples, it makes me certain that it occurs...I think that you just have to be very careful who you do business with and keep a close eye on your positions...

make sure you trust your broker, I guess....
Quoting RoBiK
what this has to do with java on the client side? if data is manipulated, then it is happening on the server side.
Its the technology, only JAVA based platform have the technology to bypass the server rates in 'realtime' and display there own trades.

Other platforms can either freeze the same rate for a long time, raise spreads, or just freeze; but they cant tweek the rates in realtime as the market moves.
The whole thread is just freaking me out...I mean...Its ever more difficult to make money and to predict the move in FOREX and make consistant profit, its already being difficult for us now on top of that its manupulated makes just matters worse....just how anyone can make regular profit's with these kind of cheats around....I mean just tell me how many information do we need to keep a tab on to just make one pip....we already had technical, fundamental, and now these broker hunting tactics too..its juts not possible to keep trading with a stop loss..hoping that you will not get cleaned up by your own broker some time or the other....and when you find out..will you keep shifting your broker month after month....
Quoting lavista4u
The whole thread is just freaking me out
Don't get too freaked out. Keep in mind that forums typically post more bad comments than good. But their are plenty of people out there making ample amounts of money with the same brokers as those that lose money.

Hey, I just rambled in another post about how much I have enjoyed using FXsol and with the added tools of their platform I have been able to increase my weekly forex take home from @$800 a week to $1200+, not including what I get paid as a network tech and hosting company owner too!

So there is good in the World, it's just that we like to point out the bad more often than not.

There are plenty of people who would flame me and say FXsol is a cheat that stop runs and all other types of deceptions....but they have done fine by me and I have no complaints.
Capital Preservation is key to long term wealth accumulation
No Flames here... I think FXsol is a great broker. I have been using them for about a year along side my other broker and have never had a problem with either. Their cust. service is top notch... Scott



Quoting MuddBuddha
Don't get too freaked out. Keep in mind that forums typically post more bad comments than good. But their are plenty of people out there making ample amounts of money with the same brokers as those that lose money.

Hey, I just rambled in another post about how much I have enjoyed using FXsol and with the added tools of their platform I have been able to increase my weekly forex take home from @$800 a week to $1200+, not including what I get paid as a network tech and hosting company owner too!

So there is good in the World, it's just that we like to point out the bad more often than not.

There are plenty of people who would flame me and say FXsol is a cheat that stop runs and all other types of deceptions....but they have done fine by me and I have no complaints.
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