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Stop-Hunting Question

  • #21
  • May 28, 2012 1:48am May 28, 2012 1:48am
Quoting jeanlouie
Pfft I'm not going to spend my time doing that...Are you aware that there is no centralized exchange for forex? So there is no set in stone standard price that can be used to compare an individual brokers feed to it's clients. Prices brokers quote with different in house algorithms and LPs are always going to be different.

Spreads don't only fluctuate during news times, if they did then you'd see spreads remain constant during non news time...which never happens.

"They make there money on commissions and the fact that most retail traders...

I am well aware of how pricing on the OTC fx market works, the question is do you??

You're not going to waste your time doing that but you'll spread bs about this happening? lol ok cool.

Spreads fluctuate depending on liquidity in the market.

You're basically wrong about everything you stated here, including the fact the MM's dont make there money on commsissions.. it's in the spread.

I'm not sure where you get your info.

somewhat set-in-stone prices can be seen on the Major ECN's such as EBS, REUTERS, CNX.... prices need to hit on more then 1 of those ECNs for options payouts/triggers etc, This is interbank pricing. Do some more research.
  • #22
  • May 28, 2012 4:27am May 28, 2012 4:27am
Quoting Monroe
I am well aware of how pricing on the OTC fx market works, the question is do you??

You're not going to waste your time doing that but you'll spread bs about this happening? lol ok cool.

Spreads fluctuate depending on liquidity in the market.

You're basically wrong about everything you stated here, including the fact the MM's dont make there money on commsissions.. it's in the spread.

I'm not sure where you get your info.

somewhat set-in-stone prices can be seen on the Major ECN's such as EBS, REUTERS, CNX.... prices need to hit on more then...
You're aware of how fx pricing works then? Then you'd know that retail brokers can not always show prices quoted on EBS and Reuters 3000, and all discrepancies come down to who exactly is in the brokers' LP and what the broker decides to do in house and the time in ms it takes to adjust it all. Together those interbank networks show the combined pricing of over 2000 banks, and retail brokers may have LPs providing prices from as low as 10 bank/non bank sources, a small snap shot of the whole market, and you're surprised that a retail broker 'could' have a feed that isn't the same?? And the average trader (sub 5k) normally won't be able to get on a broker with direct access to those big communications networks.

Yes spreads fluctuate on liquidity, again dependent on LPs a broker has, and a handful of other things; this is a copy and paste from the PDS of a stp broker laying out spreads. "...will be based on market prices available at the time and the expected level of interest rates, implied volatilities and other market conditions during the life of the financial contract and is based on a complex arithmetic calculation. The calculation will include a spread in favour of..." (the broker). As for MM making money off commissions, perhaps off their LPs but not off their clients, only profit on clients is the spread markup, maybe whatever you're thinking off is included in that markup, but when have you ever heard a MM...specifically non stp/ecn, charge clients a commission for a trade??

So, retail brokers cannot offer prices and spreads that are seen on EBS or Reuters, and 'if' they are going to stop hunt they can claim a variety of excuses.
  • #23
  • May 28, 2012 4:44am May 28, 2012 4:44am
I use ETX. I've had a stop hit - to the pip - by what I felt was a dodgy move. Especially when my Alpari feed (use Alpari MT4 for charting) did not show the same movement. I gave them a call, and they confirmed it was an error on their feed and offered to get me back in the trade or return the funds plus rollovers.

I'm sure there is dodgy business out there, but try to have faith if you are with a big broker house. If you believe everything is against you - the market, your broker, your self doubt, your fear and greed - Then trading is going to be a stressful and overly difficult business for you.

Proper stop placement also helps - But that is down to your system

Cheers,

LT
  • #24
  • May 28, 2012 5:49am May 28, 2012 5:49am
Quoting jeanlouie
You're aware of how fx pricing works then? Then you'd know that retail brokers can not always show prices quoted on EBS and Reuters 3000, and all discrepancies come down to who exactly is in the brokers' LP and what the broker decides to do in house and the time in ms it takes to adjust it all. Together those interbank networks show the combined pricing of over 2000 banks, and retail brokers may have LPs providing prices from as low as 10 bank/non bank sources, a small snap shot of the whole market, and you're surprised that a retail broker 'could'...
took you long enough to do the wrong research... try again. i will not waste my time here. I never said any of what you are saying I said, another one who likes to twist words or has a problem with reading comprehension. 2000 banks huh....

yes the "commissions" are in the spread.


one more time now... retail brokers are not the ones stop hunting.


to all newbies, get with a reputable retail broker and you'll be fine.
  • #25
  • May 28, 2012 6:08am May 28, 2012 6:08am
Quoting Lightrain
[color=black][font=Verdana]
I'm sure there is dodgy business out there, but try to have faith if you are with a big broker house. If you believe everything is against you - the market, your broker, your self doubt, your fear and greed - Then trading is going to be a stressful and overly difficult business for you.

Proper stop placement also helps - But that is down to your system

Cheers,

LT
true....
  • #26
  • May 28, 2012 7:35am May 28, 2012 7:35am
Quoting Monroe
took you long enough to do the wrong research... try again. i will not waste my time here. I never said any of what you are saying I said, another one who likes to twist words or has a problem with reading comprehension. 2000 banks huh....

yes the "commissions" are in the spread.


one more time now... retail brokers are not the ones stop hunting.


to all newbies, get with a reputable retail broker and you'll be fine.
Ah yes, of course I'm wrong, brokers especially market makers never ever have any desire to screw over any accounts and every single person including lightrain here with thoughts of stop hunting even 'to the pip' are simply mistaken, and every occurrence is just a happy coincidence and both trader and broker will look back at laugh and say woopsie dasie.

You said "show me one respectable retail broker's price feed that quoted off market to hit stops on their books alone, then show me an interbank feed where it didn't hit that price. If they did, im sure it was a technical issue and they would return the funds. If anything, the interbank price hit higher/lower." Does this not imply that you reckon every 'respectable retail broker' has a price feed that is equal to an interbank feed? Because if it wasn't then you think it must just be a technical issue. I responded to that, did all the talk about price feeds of brokers and interbank not make that clear?

Also "MM models use the spread increase as a means of protection for themselves during news releases etc when conditions call for it. That has to do with the liquidity in the market. Retail brokers are fully net hedged in on the interbank market against there books. They make there money on commissions and the fact that most retail traders have no idea what they are doing." "MM" does mean market maker right? If so, mm don't call trading costs to the client as commission, only spread markup, I responded to that. Not Clear?

Again "Spreads fluctuate depending on liquidity in the market." I responded by including a stp broker pds statement about how spreads are calculated and it's not whole heartily dependent on liquidity.

Do you honestly think that given the opportunity to do so, a broker that is not true ecn/dma would not at least on seldom occasion manipulate the MT4 platform by requoting, slipping, spread widening, disconnecting with the ability to call these 'technical issues', to trigger stops on trades that it routed and cleared in house, knowing that clients have mostly likely have negative expectancy trading and probably won't make a fuss over it with regulatory bodies?
  • #27
  • May 28, 2012 10:53am May 28, 2012 10:53am
Quoting Price
Great news.... You're with a good broker. You don't need to worry about anyone hunting your individual stops.

More Good news.... It's not you against your broker, it's just you and the market. But really, It's just you against yourself.
Good Luck with that one.

But, at least you don't have to worry about anyone jacking your stops.
Cool, thanks! I think people that say "my" stop got hunted just need someone to blame.
  • #28
  • May 28, 2012 10:57am May 28, 2012 10:57am
Quoting quantq3
it's not a real matter - people that gets stop continuously lack either in the trading system or experience.
This is what I always believed and was very skeptical when someone said their stop got hunted.
  • #29
  • May 28, 2012 11:02am May 28, 2012 11:02am
How about a little more respect? Nobody likes to see someone's sore ego lashing out.

As someone else mentioned earlier to the OP it's not the brokers hunting the stops, but traders that have no choice but to transact at the levels.
  • #30
  • Edited 2:33pm May 28, 2012 2:19pm | Edited 2:33pm
Quoting jeanlouie
Ah yes, of course I'm wrong, brokers especially market makers never ever have any desire to screw over any accounts and every single person including lightrain here with thoughts of stop hunting even 'to the pip' are simply mistaken, and every occurrence is just a happy coincidence and both trader and broker will look back at laugh and say woopsie dasie.

You said "[i]show me one respectable retail broker's price feed that quoted off market to hit stops on their books alone, then show me an interbank feed where it didn't hit that price. If...
It's obvious you know nothing.

Retail brokers are not stop hunting and they don't have to.

Instead of copying and pasting bs why dont you just go find me a retail brokers price feed that stop hunted when the rest of the market never touched those prices. Try not to go out of your way to find a brokers from Guatemala, I said a reputable broker.

Yes there price feeds are pretty much dead on balls to the interbank feeds.

2003 is gone..... this is 2012.

for any newbies, sorry you guys have to deal with pikers of this sort.

If anyone has any fear, just get with a US broker or go trade futures. But in all honesty, newbs have no business trading spot fx.
  • #31
  • Edited 4:12pm May 28, 2012 3:06pm | Edited 4:12pm
I've traded live for years. Most of that was with IBFX, who IMO does hunt stops (and cheats badly in many other ways. IBFX IS A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE SCAM BUCKET SHOP). I'm trading with Oanda now, with a small account, a very small account. IMO, they hunts stops even with the small trades I'm placing with them.

I dont say that because of sour grapes I say it because the way I've been stopped out at all kinds of stops, BE stops, positive SL stops its always way to uncanny and consistent to not have been hunted.

Any logical stops alway seem to get it if they are close. Stops set at +30 BE +1 always seem to get hit. Stops above/below the last low high in a mini trend always seem to get hit before moving on. Basically I've found that if the stop is tighter than fifty pips, no matter how logical the place you put the stop, it's probably going to get hit....especially if you were right about the move and the trade would end up being worth a 100 + pips.

Now, I realize stops aren't just run by brokers. They are also run by large institutional traders and trading firms. They pick up your money with the whip and zig zag that happens before any real move. They pick up the stops above and below and then let the rest of the stop orders cascade into the big move.

If you are going to trade forex, then have a plan to deal with being stop hunted. No matter who's doing it...it is a fact of life in forex trading.

Read the TOA when you sign up with a broker, they are the counter party. No matter what they say they make money when you lose. I believe they even do it with the small traders. Multiply all the small time traders times the thousands of accounts, times all the stops, still adds up to quite a bit of money.

I've never traded with an ECN, but I would bet that they hunt stops as well. They are still the counter party and have to cover your winning trades, when you withdraw money from your account the payment comes directly from them, NOT some faceless guy on the other side of your winning trade.

Am I paranoid? Sure. But, just because I think someone is out to get me doesn't mean they aren't.
  • #32
  • May 28, 2012 3:16pm May 28, 2012 3:16pm
For all the idiots who cant trade... show the stops hunts, just simply show them and prove the broker did it on there feed.

Until then stfu.

I have one live account with oanda and thats pure bullshit kid.

I can show you all the real stop hunts where pikers got wiped clean and the brokers didn't have to do anything. They are not after your 10$ stops.
  • #33
  • May 28, 2012 3:30pm May 28, 2012 3:30pm
Monroe, I've just read your last few dozen posts, and you're either attacking people or posting in the "useless" thread. Your whole life here at FF is telling people they don't know as much as you, but the only thread you ever started was you admitting you were a newbie reading from Babypips. So it makes me wonder why exactly are you even a member here since you have nothing to offer except grief.
To improve is to change. To perfect, is to change often.
  • #34
  • Edited 4:13pm May 28, 2012 3:33pm | Edited 4:13pm
Quoting forexhard
Monroe, I've just read your last few dozen posts, and you're either attacking people or posting in the "useless" thread. Your whole life here at FF is telling people they don't know as much as you, but the only thread you ever started was you admitting you were a newbie reading from Babypips. So it makes me wonder why exactly are you even a member here since you have nothing to offer except grief.
I know I am awesome now... you got a problem? That was my newbie post like 3 years ago. I love when f*gs bring that post up when they try and put me down, its overplayed and 3 years old.

I am offering grief to idiots who have no idea what they are doing, spreading BS about things they have no idea about.

I have nothing to offer but greif or telling people they dont know as much as me? Your an idiot too. Have you actually read my posts on Useless thread or the old OF thread? maybe you would learn a thing or 2, unless you have the same reading comprehension problem as a few have demonstrated here.

The useless thread is a thread i like to kill time while im bored as there are maybe 3 or 4 good traders there. I appreciate you looking back at my work though, cause trust me i could care less about yours.

just check the past few weeks of calls here since ive been back to this crappy forum, i took months off cause i couldn't stand the likes of people like you, and im about to again.
  • #35
  • May 28, 2012 3:44pm May 28, 2012 3:44pm
Am I supposed to comfort idiots with there BS?

I came here with good intentions first then the muppets started going off as usual...

Im gone.... you muppets can all circle jerk each other and cry about brokers hunting stops i dont care.
  • #36
  • Edited May 29, 2012 2:54pm May 28, 2012 3:54pm | Edited May 29, 2012 2:54pm
ok my post has been up long enough..


im not giving away information it took my blood sweat and tears to learn...

was trying to help a bit so hopefully u paid attention while you could
  • #37
  • Edited May 29, 2012 2:56pm May 28, 2012 3:55pm | Edited May 29, 2012 2:56pm
Quoting fxjawn
its as simple as this:


Are these brokers after your stops personally? No! they are after liquidity which is the stops and if your put your stops in the same areas as the masses they will be hunted.

There are tactics used...

hi


the spread widening during news is also more to protect there own asses from straddling bastards. It is also a consequence of liquidity at price points. Use it to your advantage. There are plenty of advantages of using retail brokers.
  • #38
  • May 28, 2012 3:57pm May 28, 2012 3:57pm
Quoting Monroe
hi
tee hee
  • #39
  • May 28, 2012 4:02pm May 28, 2012 4:02pm


i can honestly say for every trade that has been stopped out within a few pips of my placment,equally ive had aproximatly the same no were my stopped has been missed by a couple of pips,

having said that you need to be aware of the times and zones were its within the larger particepents realm to sweep the spills.
  • #40
  • May 28, 2012 4:06pm May 28, 2012 4:06pm
If you execute 10trades in a munite and use a 10 to 15 or even 20pips stoploss on each trade, then there's only one word to describe you ( LIQUIDITY!!! ).

If you take a poll, 95% of all those that complain about brokers are scalpers and EA users.

Stop complaining and devise a trade method on higher tf's that would make it impossible for even a Nigerian broker to screw you. Think of this, if a thief always comes to rob your house because you have no locks on your doors and your windows are bare, would complaining every morning after each robbery help the situation? The answer is a big NO!

But what if after the last robbery you went and installed security doors with infrared alarm system and steel burglaries along with 2 pissed alsasian dogs to patrol the property, you'l have solved the problem without a single word said.

I dont even want to argue if brokers play games or not but the bottom line is, dont give them an incentive to wanna screw you.
The only way not to think about money is to have a great deal of it
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