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Stop Hunting

  • #21
  • May 10, 2006 3:39pm May 10, 2006 3:39pm
Keep us posted about what the broker replies to you about this. Even if not mentioning his name.
  • #22
  • May 10, 2006 3:40pm May 10, 2006 3:40pm
Quoting mrmikal
A few things to note here.

I see the first chart hitting 26 on the red candle, but none of the other charts do including your last one (which I thought was a reposting of the first one). Did you notice that? or did I misunderstand what you meant by the "second chart" as it looks like it's on the same platform as the first chart.

Secondly, during FOMC news, a 20 pip stop? I'm not going to try and understand what the reasoning is, but 20 pip volatility is so common during news releases.
1. The first chart is the one with the errant price. All the rest are there to show "normal" price feeds.

2. Two charts are from the same broker - one on their live account (the errant price) the other using their demo feed (the "second chart" mentioned.)

3. This was not my trade. The thread was to discuss errant price movements during volatile times, which people often call stop hunts. One could argue with this trader's strategy, but, he's a friend of mine and consistently takes a lot of money out of the market. I don't question his tactics anymore.
  • #23
  • May 10, 2006 3:41pm May 10, 2006 3:41pm
Quoting mrmikal
A few things to note here.

I see the first chart hitting 26 on the red candle, but none of the other charts do including your last one (which I thought was a reposting of the first one). Did you notice that? or did I misunderstand what you meant by the "second chart" as it looks like it's on the same platform as the first chart.

Secondly, during FOMC news, a 20 pip stop? I'm not going to try and understand what the reasoning is, but 20 pip volatility is so common during news releases.
What he is saying is that the "demo" account(last chart) is showing the correct data for that bar, but his "Live" account(first chart) is the one that shows wrong data or manipulated data.

Darkstar: I think your're reading the 5min charts a little bit off. Its showing the last bar before the jump too 1.2833.
  • #24
  • May 10, 2006 3:43pm May 10, 2006 3:43pm
Uh nevermind my post. I'm a tool for typing too slow.
  • #25
  • May 10, 2006 3:44pm May 10, 2006 3:44pm
Why are you complaining?

After complaining, why are you not posting the name the guilty broker?

If that happened (a graph does not lie), then why are you refusing to post the thief's name?

Are you with us or are you shouldering with them thieves?
  • #26
  • May 10, 2006 3:48pm May 10, 2006 3:48pm
Quoting cooldude
Why are you complaining?

After complaining, why are you not posting the name the guilty broker?

If that happened (a graph does not lie), then why are you refusing to post the thief's name?

Are you with us or are you shouldering with them thieves?
This is not the right time, first let the trader settle the issue with the broker.

Maybe the broker says save my name and I will return you all money. And the trader can use this thread as bargain for it.
  • #27
  • May 10, 2006 3:52pm May 10, 2006 3:52pm
Quoting cooldude
Why are you complaining?

After complaining, why are you not posting the name the guilty broker?

If that happened (a graph does not lie), then why are you refusing to post the thief's name?

Are you with us or are you shouldering with them thieves?
Umm. I'm not complaining.

1. I'm pointing out to the community a reality of our trading environment.
2. I'm ensuring that other people's data confirm the issue.
3. I'm disputing those people who believe the banks and brokers act "wholesomely" and deny the existence of stop hunting.

The issue about providing a name is tricky. Frankly, I don't think it's the broker's fault. I think the bank on the back end is the dastardly culprit. Also, I don't think that this broker is the only one not immune to their liquidity providers practicing similar behaviors. In other words, why get one blackballed when we know it's a common problem. If they fix the problem appropriately, then, they meet my expectations. If not, then they deserve to go out of business. I'll hold judgement until then. Clearly, though, you know it's not IBFX, GFT Forex or OandA. Finally, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I've always been too trusting that way
  • #28
  • May 10, 2006 3:52pm May 10, 2006 3:52pm
Quoting stockwet
1. The first chart is the one with the errant price. All the rest are there to show "normal" price feeds.

2. Two charts are from the same broker - one on their live account (the errant price) the other using their demo feed (the "second chart" mentioned.)

3. This was not my trade. The thread was to discuss errant price movements during volatile times, which people often call stop hunts. One could argue with this trader's strategy, but, he's a friend of mine and consistently takes a lot of money out of the market. I don't question his tactics anymore.
I see what you're saying. I'm not doubting that something is amiss here. What you really need to do is tell us which broker jacked you and your friend, and we can collectively boycott them. Not that it will change much, but in principal, that type of behavior is quite disgusting.

Assuming your stops are triggered by your broker and not your trading platform, you could easily get them to prove their price feed with a court order. You could claim fraud and everyone here would be behind you.

So, who is this broker?
  • #29
  • May 10, 2006 3:56pm May 10, 2006 3:56pm
Quoting mrmikal
I see what you're saying. I'm not doubting that something is amiss here. What you really need to do is tell us which broker jacked you and your friend, and we can collectively boycott them. Not that it will change much, but in principal, that type of behavior is quite disgusting.

Assuming your stops are triggered by your broker and not your trading platform, you could easily get them to prove their price feed with a court order. You could claim fraud and everyone here would be behind you.

So, who is this broker?
Sorry, no names until the broker takes or fails to take action. Honestly, if this broker fixes my friend's account, I may go with them. You know the integrity of a company not by how they treat you when things go right, but how they treat you when things go wrong. He lost over $50k on this trade. If they return that to them, I think that says something positive about the broker.
  • #30
  • May 10, 2006 4:00pm May 10, 2006 4:00pm
Quoting stockwet
Umm. I'm not complaining.

1. I'm pointing out to the community a reality of our trading environment.
2. I'm ensuring that other people's data confirm the issue.
3. I'm disputing those people who believe the banks and brokers act "wholesomely" and deny the existence of stop hunting.

The issue about providing a name is tricky. Frankly, I don't think it's the broker's fault. I think the bank on the back end is the dastardly culprit. Also, I don't think that this broker is the only one not immune to their liquidity providers practicing similar behaviors. In other words, why get one blackballed when we know it's a common problem. If they fix the problem appropriately, then, they meet my expectations. If not, then they deserve to go out of business. I'll hold judgement until then. Clearly, though, you know it's not IBFX, GFT Forex or OandA. Finally, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I've always been too trusting that way
OK...your last paragraph undermines your third point. What makes you think this ISN'T the broker's fault? and if even if it WAS the banks fault, why would you continue with the broker??? repoire? It just goes to show you'd easily get burned again...and apparently you don't mind endangering the other's on this forum as well...

I agree, with most of what you're saying, though...stop hunting does exist, this isn't what I would call a problem. It's the name of the game. These stop hunting patterns can actually be exploited, which is why I could careless that they happen. Stop hunting occurs (in my opinion) more to trigger orders and commissions, not necessarily to act as reasons to directly profit from the trade going wrong (like a broker wanting to take the opposite position).

What gets me about this thread is that you go through all this trouble to post and get us to acknowledge something that we all know is true on some level and yet in the end, we're still left with a predator.

However, if your point was to prove that your data was messed up by a broker who you think stop hunted you...we get your point. I think.
  • #31
  • May 10, 2006 4:03pm May 10, 2006 4:03pm
Quoting stockwet
Sorry, no names until the broker takes or fails to take action. Honestly, if this broker fixes my friend's account, I may go with them. You know the integrity of a company not by how they treat you when things go right, but how they treat you when things go wrong. He lost over $50k on this trade. If they return that to them, I think that says something positive about the broker.
So if I rob your house and I get caught, as long as I return the goods you'll hire me to monitor your alarm? It seems a little odd that you would do such a thing.
  • #32
  • May 10, 2006 4:04pm May 10, 2006 4:04pm
Its is totally brokers greed.

I was looking for good IB agreement with someone, and this one broker offered me a platform where I can skew prices to any extent I want at anytime I want to trigger Stops. He had this inbuilt software withing the platform.

I asked him what if the clients find the difference in charts, and he said we will just return him his money them than. Untill he finds the fault its always your profit, he said that to me.

I dont understand why will bankers of the brokers will do this?
  • #33
  • May 10, 2006 4:05pm May 10, 2006 4:05pm
Quoting stockwet
Sorry, no names until the broker takes or fails to take action. Honestly, if this broker fixes my friend's account, I may go with them. You know the integrity of a company not by how they treat you when things go right, but how they treat you when things go wrong. He lost over $50k on this trade. If they return that to them, I think that says something positive about the broker.
What would you define as an appropriate fix? Returning $50K or Returning $50K + his profits he would have earned?

Honestly, I'm not sure how doing either of this would be:
1) fair to the broker IF the bank is the culprit - it's not like they're going to go to the bank and say, "hey...". Every tom-dick and harry would go to them and say "I lost money...can you return my losses???". Not going to happen. Your friend is out $50K, I don't see how they can fix it unless it was truly a data error in which case they have some cause...but if the bank really posted the price, there is no way they're going to return losses of that size.
2) going to fix anything unless they drop the bank they're working with which seems even less likely.

Do you see what I'm saying?
  • #34
  • May 10, 2006 4:07pm May 10, 2006 4:07pm
Quoting Purple
Its is totally brokers greed.

I was looking for good IB agreement with someone, and this one broker offered me a platform where I can skew prices to any extent I want at anytime I want to trigger Stops. He had this inbuilt software withing the platform.

I asked him what if the clients find the difference in charts, and he said we will just return him his money them than. Untill he finds the fault its always your profit, he said that to me.

I dont understand why will bankers of the brokers will do this?
Now THAT'S EXCELLENT information! Purp, tell me...what broker was THIS with? LOL
  • #35
  • May 10, 2006 4:09pm May 10, 2006 4:09pm
Quoting stockwet
Sorry, no names until the broker takes or fails to take action. Honestly, if this broker fixes my friend's account, I may go with them. You know the integrity of a company not by how they treat you when things go right, but how they treat you when things go wrong. He lost over $50k on this trade. If they return that to them, I think that says something positive about the broker.

Do you think the broker will give your friend a break or at least try their best to fix it, because he/she is a bigger fish than us small cap people?

I would think they would try to keep the big caps around and keep their name from being a part of a smear campaign.
  • #36
  • Edited 4:19pm May 10, 2006 4:09pm | Edited 4:19pm
Quoting mrmikal
Now THAT'S EXCELLENT information! Purp, tell me...what broker was THIS with? LOL
LOL, I told him 'Thanks Bye' that day itself. What is gaurantee that he wont skew prices for me, if he is offering that for my clients. So my clients get double skewed prices. lol

A good Wall Street based brokerage company, but I dont want ten other IBs to join him, so cant reveal his name. Sorry.
  • #37
  • May 10, 2006 4:10pm May 10, 2006 4:10pm
You know, I really hate to say this, but the thought crossed my mind. It's kind of like how companies give rebates. The rebate seals the deal, but, only small percentage of people actually return their rebates.

One question, did this broker claim to provide STP - straight through processing? That's the only reason I'm inclined to suspect the bank first, and the broker second.
  • #38
  • May 10, 2006 4:11pm May 10, 2006 4:11pm
Quoting Darkstar
So if I rob your house and I get caught, as long as I return the goods you'll hire me to monitor your alarm? It seems a little odd that you would do such a thing.
Its not his trade, not his broker, he cant reveal untill he gets permission from that trader, whose hard earned money is at stake. Obviously I will try to protect my house first. I am not Mother Teresa.
  • #39
  • May 10, 2006 4:15pm May 10, 2006 4:15pm
Quoting stockwet
You know, I really hate to say this, but the thought crossed my mind. It's kind of like how companies give rebates. The rebate seals the deal, but, only small percentage of people actually return their rebates.

One question, did this broker claim to provide STP - straight through processing? That's the only reason I'm inclined to suspect the bank first, and the broker second.
What is STP?

He said I will only get the brokerage and handsome spread money, he gets to keep the phoney loss the poor clients make. I am pretty sure if I would have bargained further, he would have been willing to share the loss money too with me.
  • #40
  • May 10, 2006 4:17pm May 10, 2006 4:17pm
Quoting mrmikal
What would you define as an appropriate fix? Returning $50K or Returning $50K + his profits he would have earned?

Honestly, I'm not sure how doing either of this would be:
1) fair to the broker IF the bank is the culprit - it's not like they're going to go to the bank and say, "hey...". Every tom-dick and harry would go to them and say "I lost money...can you return my losses???". Not going to happen. Your friend is out $50K, I don't see how they can fix it unless it was truly a data error in which case they have some cause...but if the bank really posted the price, there is no way they're going to return losses of that size.
2) going to fix anything unless they drop the bank they're working with which seems even less likely.

Do you see what I'm saying?
I see what you're saying. It's a difficult situation. I think this is a pitfall to participating in a non-regulated market.

I'm not sure what the resolution should be. In an ideal world, I'd want this broker and their liquidity partner investigated to determine whether or not there was intent involved or not. That would be a satisfactory resolution for me, but, it wasn't my money.
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