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No SL No Leverage Strategy - working so far

  • #741
  • May 12, 2012 10:33am May 12, 2012 10:33am
Quoting fxtr51
[...]
Now, please explain to us why 95 % lose their money with placing their SL behind the last Swing high/Swing low or S/R line.

[...]
I thought we already dealt with the fallacy of this example.. and moved on. Why are you flogging it about again?
FXGears.com
  • #742
  • May 12, 2012 10:37am May 12, 2012 10:37am
Quoting fierceman
I can confirm that Currenex is the same. So we have 2 professional level platforms that do not allow hedging vs. MT4. Hmmmm. The clients and designers of Currenex probably couldn't solve a grade 2 math problem .
Currenex, like other higher end platforms, accounts for positions in terms of exposure... Plus, in an effort to keep trading costs down, most institutional traders would rather execute on the closing leg of the swap than open a new position that has to be closed later with yet another transaction.
FXGears.com
  • #743
  • May 12, 2012 10:47am May 12, 2012 10:47am
Quoting Jack_Larkin
Currenex, like other higher end platforms, accounts for positions in terms of exposure... Plus, in an effort to keep trading costs down, most institutional traders would rather execute on the closing leg of the swap than open a new position that has to be closed later with yet another transaction.
Precisely.
  • #744
  • May 12, 2012 3:45pm May 12, 2012 3:45pm
Quoting Jack_Larkin
I thought we already dealt with the fallacy of this example.. and moved on. Why are you flogging it about again?
There is no "fallacy" and what is "flogging" ?
I did not get a clear translation on google.
  • #745
  • May 12, 2012 3:49pm May 12, 2012 3:49pm
Quoting fierceman
Bob, I have a degree in physics. In physics, there is A LOT of very complex math. There is a lot of linear algebra, and even more differential equations. While the math we do is not quite as rigorous as what pure mathematicians do, for you to imply that I can't solve a 3 step math problem is an absurd statement.

I understand there have been a lot of insults thrown around in this thread, from both sides, but I don't believe I have insulted you, so I would ask you for the same civility.

I think the problem with your thinking is that having two...
Dang, all of this writing and it takes one sentence to defeat it. If 1-1 = 0 then why do I still have 1 trade left when i close one? That is because 1+1=2

Merlin's challenge is a farce because there is no way to collect on it. If he puts the sum up in a neutral bank so I could legitimately collect on it. All I would have to do is place two trades. Let one profit, let price reverse and let it profit and prove him wrong and collect. The problem is I could never collect the money because he would never put it up into a neutral bank for collection. Because you guys dont accept the most obvious point, that they are two separate trades, the premise and the offer is a farce. Your base position has a fallacy, they are two separate trades taken at the same time. That will never change. Whenever you close the positions at different times proves the value of the trades taken. One position taken for long term and one position taken for the short term. Both are legitimate trades for legitimate reasons. There I defeated his argument and can prove it by taking two live trades and making them both profit at different times. Now give me my money. Stupid offer. My position on the matter is proven 100% correct in that both positions can be made to profit. So that ends the debate two trade both taken for a profit. Money is not truly offered as a real offer it cant be collected so it is a farce.
  • #746
  • May 12, 2012 4:04pm May 12, 2012 4:04pm
Amazing ,,some realy belive the rubbish...

when it comes down to basic....what you actually claim is your never wrong..it doesnt matter where you enter and wich way...cause price will come back and you always just wait and take the profit...

1: your always right.....

2: you just not always timing your entries right..but no worries it will always turn out sooner or later as a winner.

3: while waiting on the bad timing entry to profit.....then you use the time to make good entries for profit here and now....

trading is easy...lol
StopLoss is for none belivers... Trust the Gurus..
  • #747
  • Edited 4:49pm May 12, 2012 4:20pm | Edited 4:49pm
Quoting fxtr51
There is no "fallacy" and what is "flogging" ?
I did not get a clear translation on google.
1. "fallacy":

  1. A mistaken belief, esp. one based on unsound argument


2. "flogging":

  1. Promote or talk about (something) repetitively or at excessive length.


The last time you used the argument that all stop loss orders are set at prices commonly hit, that all SL users put their stops in places that are likely to be run, I responded with this:

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...17#post5640417

Specifically, I pointed out that you're mixing up the tool (stop orders) with the method (where some traders place them.) Further, it would be illogical for any trader to witness the high likelihood of such a level being tested, and choose to place their stop there anyway (heck, if they saw it was as common as your post made it seem, they'd place their entry order there instead.. since that's the action with a higher positive expectancy.)


Instead of defending your claim, you deflected my dialogue with a comment about how stop hunting was just one aspect of this argument... trying to avoid further criticism without coming off as 'wrong'.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...32#post5640432



So I thought you were done making such assertions.. having deflected direct criticism of your statement instead of defending it.

Yet, here we are again.

I hate repeating myself, so if you're going to pull a Bob and just ignore what you can't respond to (no offence Bob ;P), while continuing to post the same thing in error over and over, then I'm just going to wish you happy trading and leave this alone.

FXGears.com
  • #748
  • May 12, 2012 8:44pm May 12, 2012 8:44pm
Quoting nanningbob
Dang, all of this writing and it takes one sentence to defeat it. If 1-1 = 0 then why do I still have 1 trade left when i close one? That is because 1+1=2

Merlin's challenge is a farce because there is no way to collect on it. If he puts the sum up in a neutral bank so I could legitimately collect on it. All I would have to do is place two trades. Let one profit, let price reverse and let it profit and prove him wrong and collect. The problem is I could never collect the money because he would never put it up into a neutral bank for collection....
No one said you can't make money on both sides of the "hedge". What I am saying is that I can replicate the exact series of trades without "hedging", and actually end up a few pips better off because I pay less spread and possibly less overnight interest.

BTW, when you close one side of the hedge, you don't "have one trade left", you have a NEW POSITION IN THE MARKET.

When I get around to posting the new thread I will be sure to spell out the rules exactly, so that there is no misunderstanding.
  • #749
  • May 12, 2012 8:47pm May 12, 2012 8:47pm
I am actually very sad that nobody read my examples. Or they read it but just would not accept the fact. My example is so clear and so precise of why hedging is in fact not a mutually exclusive event.

Bob. You may open 2 trades and they may show up as 2 trades on your MT4. But in the end, the "inventory" is yours.

If you go back to basics, you are owning and selling currencies. Regardless of how many positions you open you are still doing so from the same pool. That is why it is not a separate and mutually exclusive trade. You can never get 1+1 = 2. That is not how the entire financial trade is based on.

Right now you are just refusing to accept facts that have been around since the beginning of a market.

-------
And I'm sure if we search hard enough, we can eventually find merlin again. I'm sure twee or some of the older people here have emails they can pull out.

If you can prove that we can't replicate your trade 100% by not hedging, I'm sure the trading community will be very interested in your findings. In fact, you could probably get a doctorate for disproving hundreds of years of basic finance.
  • #750
  • May 12, 2012 8:56pm May 12, 2012 8:56pm
Quoting nanningbob
Dang, all of this writing and it takes one sentence to defeat it. If 1-1 = 0 then why do I still have 1 trade left when i close one?
When you close one side of the hedge, that's another trade, so again it's either a +1 or a -1 (depending on which side you close).

So, let's say you have a perfect hedge +1, -1. At this point you are flat (your net position is 0 and you don't care which way price moves) because 1 - 1 = 0. If at that point you close your long (closing a long is selling - the same as taking a short, so it's -1). At that point you have 1 - 1 - 1 = -1. You have a negative (short) position in the market. At this point, you want price to go down.
  • #751
  • May 12, 2012 9:01pm May 12, 2012 9:01pm
Quoting thelws
I am actually very sad that nobody read my examples.
Hey I read your examples and agreed. I was already on your side though...
  • #752
  • May 12, 2012 9:56pm May 12, 2012 9:56pm
Quoting fierceman
Hey I read your examples and agreed. I was already on your side though...
lol it wasnt meant for you but all is well.
  • #753
  • May 12, 2012 10:16pm May 12, 2012 10:16pm
Quoting thelws
I am actually very sad that nobody read my examples. Or they read it but just would not accept the fact. My example is so clear and so precise of why hedging is in fact not a mutually exclusive event.

Bob. You may open 2 trades and they may show up as 2 trades on your MT4. But in the end, the "inventory" is yours.

If you go back to basics, you are owning and selling currencies. Regardless of how many positions you open you are still doing so from the same pool. That is why it is not a separate and mutually exclusive trade. You can never get...
Thank you. I do read your posts and accepting your opinion is not the same as accepting it as a fact. Bringing in Twee and Merlin in and using the same logic wont change anything. I have shown you the following:

1. Both trades buy and a sell can be placed in the market and both become profitable. You answer you incur costs, you would incur these costs anyway so that is a wash. You place a lot of emphasis on swap costs. That is a problem of high leverage trading not low or no leverage trading. The lower your leverage, the less money you are borrowing when you trade, the more insignificant it becomes as a cost. Swap costs mean nothing to me because I am a low leverage trader. So from now on you can throw that argument out because it is meaningless argument to me.

2. Position long term traders trade multiple positions long term. That they have to close them because of some fallacy argument that you cant hold positions in two directions at the same time is ridiculous. They have no reason to close their long term trading strategy to take advantage of short term market conditions just because you have some misplaced logic about hedging.

3. This leads to what the real issue is here. You simply dont accept the fact, and it is a fact, that markets can be traded from different points of view and trading methods. That is why you guys are so frustrated and have this thing about, "You will never admit your wrong." I dont have to admit I am wrong. I just trade differently than you do. The fact is my account goes up over long periods of time, whether you like my trading style or not, I dont give rat's a............... I have never one time accused your trading method as being wrong. I have challenged some very bad opinions though as false.

4. Finally and this has been brought up as a constant. If I knew how to trade I wouldnt trade any other way. If I knew how to accurately enter the market, have an edge, I wouldnt trade any other way. That is an elitist argument. I can defeat that whole line of thinking with one statement. If you are entering the market with such accuracy you wouldnt need a stop loss because you would be so accurate. The very fact that you have your SL hit shows that you didnt enter the market accurately. This is the real problem and issue. You have an elitist mentality and cannot admit there are other methods of trading. Is this a fact? Yes. Can I prove it? Yes.

Here is my answer to your elitism. Go study a COT report. You will always find that people who trade in the Billions of dollars do not trade like you do. Why? Because there are always an X amount of traders buying and a Y amount of traders selling and they are not using tight SL like you do, nor do they trade high leverage but trade very low to no leverage. Do they hedge, errrrrrr hold buys and sells at the same time? YES, they do. They will trade long term sells and do short term buys or visa versa. And both trades will be profitable. An that sir ends the argument because your opinion will never change the facts. I dont care how many posts your write or how many Merlins, Twees, or other traders you bring in. You cant overcome facts with opinion. I think that just about does it on that issue even though it will continue because there are people in this world that cant see things from a different perspective or point of view. I get your point of view, I understand it. I dont agree, my growing account and those of others and those who have to report to COT show that.

5. Oh I almost forgot 1+1 will always equal 2 and that will never change. So quit the crap with 1+1=0 or 1-1= 0 when you really have two trades going on at the same time. Dang never in my life did I ever think I would have to defend 1+1 sheeeeeeeeesh. Only on the internet could that every become an issue.
  • #754
  • May 13, 2012 12:28am May 13, 2012 12:28am
Bob my good sir...

If your conviction is as great as you believe it to be, I look forward to your book in the near future on hedging on the same pair.

If you choose not to write a book, at least post your discovery in an intellectual body such as universities. I believe many professors of finance will be interested in your discovery. In fact, who knows, they may even award you a phd for your thesis.

If you do write a paper on this, do link me to it. I will more than be happy to read through the entire thesis without bias as I always do with any paper.
  • #755
  • May 13, 2012 1:04am May 13, 2012 1:04am
Quoting thelws

I am actually very sad that nobody read my examples. Or they read it but just would not accept the fact. My example is so clear and so precise of why hedging is in fact not a mutually exclusive event.
I'm sure they read your examples, facts don't seem to make any difference though, which goes some way to explaining why these people 'trade' the way they do and refuse to accept the patently obvious.


Quoting thelws

If you can prove that we can't replicate your trade 100% by not hedging, I'm sure the trading community will be very interested in your findings. In fact, you could probably get a doctorate for disproving hundreds of years of basic finance.
They know they can never prove it with clear examples so they avoid the challenge by blowing smoke.

lol, this thread is so funny, watching people squirm trying to defend the blatantly indefensible........
  • #756
  • May 13, 2012 1:43am May 13, 2012 1:43am
Quoting thelws
Bob my good sir...

If your conviction is as great as you believe it to be, I look forward to your book in the near future on hedging on the same pair.

If you choose not to write a book, at least post your discovery in an intellectual body such as universities. I believe many professors of finance will be interested in your discovery. In fact, who knows, they may even award you a phd for your thesis.

If you do write a paper on this, do link me to it. I will more than be happy to read through the entire thesis without bias as I always do with any...
My trading methods are public knowledge and an open book. Just go to my 10.2 thread and read. You wont find hedging there because I cant hedge in the USA. If I could I would have no problem holding onto any long term positions while I take the opposite position on a short term trade. The idea that I cant trade long term and short term at the same time to me is very silly. Because of such silly rules you overcome this by having two accounts. One for short term trading and one for long term. It was easier having one. I suppose in your thinking I would have to go into my long term accounts and close my buys so I then could go to my short term account and do a sell. When the sell is done I could then go back and reestablish my buys in my long term account. Dont you see the absurdity of that?? I think the vast majority of traders would.
  • #757
  • Edited 2:02am May 13, 2012 1:55am | Edited 2:02am
Quoting nanningbob
My trading methods are public knowledge and an open book. Just go to my 10.2 thread and read. You wont find hedging there because I cant hedge in the USA. If I could I would have no problem holding onto any long term positions while I take the opposite position on a short term trade. The idea that I cant trade long term and short term at the same time to me is very silly. Because of such silly rules you overcome this by having two accounts. One for short term trading and one for long term. It was easier having one. I suppose in your thinking I would...
Yes. Like I said before. The absurdity only applies if you have many trades that you need to manage. Then hedging becomes more of a management tool - in order to simplify your daily life. That is the only benefit of hedging.

In terms of monetary value, hedging brings no additional benefit to the table. In professional platforms, if they want to do what you are doing, they would simply sell a larger amount than their buy, putting then in the net short.
Quote
I suppose in your thinking I would have to go into my long term accounts and close my buys so I then could go to my short term account and do a sell. When the sell is done I could then go back and reestablish my buys in my long term account.

Example:
If you have a 1lot long open position, and you want to do a short term sell trade, they would sell 2 lots. Effectively putting them into net short 1 lot.

When they want to close that short trade, they would again buy 2 lots. Effectively closing their short position and going net long 1 lot.

By doing this, they pay as little cost as possible. Everything is done on 1 account. Absurd? No not at all, because their objective is to get ultimate and maximum gain. Paying for additional costs for nothing is just a strategy they will not tolerate.
  • #758
  • May 13, 2012 2:19am May 13, 2012 2:19am
Quoting nanningbob
Dang, all of this writing and it takes one sentence to defeat it. If 1-1 = 0 then why do I still have 1 trade left when i close one? That is because 1+1=2

Merlin's challenge is a farce because there is no way to collect on it. If he puts the sum up in a neutral bank so I could legitimately collect on it. All I would have to do is place two trades. Let one profit, let price reverse and let it profit and prove him wrong and collect. The problem is I could never collect the money because he would never put it up into a neutral bank for collection....
I am not the kind of guy to sit and talk i am a action guy.. action is the only thing that gets us traders to anywhere.. so i am not going to argue about your logic or etc, even though i can say a lot.. so..
Ok Bob.. Merlins offer is a farce.. others are stupid and got no logic or don't know math or etc,.. ok.. wouldn't you think at some point you'll need to prove all this one way lectures of yours for years!!.. make it real.. how about just open a small 5k explorer account and trade it like you preach.. prove to all these guys and the world that you are right in your way and more importantly it actually makes money.. bcz at the end its all about profitability and at the the end all this talk and arguments is not going to get anywhere, agree..
show us how x+y= 2 actually sums up to profit in real world.. show us that you will consistently close x and y which sums up to 2 is always positive disregarding traders ability.. show that its not wishful thinking.. or your recovery techniques actually work with real money on the line.
or.. I am also willing to go head to head against you.. you trade your way with your whatever hedge, nedge, recovery, lock unlock BS and I just go with simple trading using lets say no more than 50point sl.. whoever last or is more successful at end of the year will collect all the money of the other guys account.. you may say this is also farce.. but at least this one is wide open in the eyes of everyone and only a coward will flake on this.. if you accept, I swear to the soul of my late father that I will stand by my word.. I'll even throw in an a insurance for you too, if you defeat me or even if you are successful somewhat i will pay 5k (initial deposit).. not to mention that if you prove your way, I am sure it will benefit you in many other ways.. at worst you can sell many books, lol who knows.. I on other hand just be happy with your money if you have not blown the account before the year is out which is my prediction by the way.
heck, for all i know I need something to motivate me to actually sit and trade like a beast as i used to, just that will be enough of a reward for me.

Whatta ya say Bob, deal!!.. if you got other offers i am all ears too, I work with you to your taste, how about that.
i am sure you will either ignore this proposal or called names or etc,.. but i thought to give it a try and put myself on the line as well.

Anyways, I'll hit the Tennis court for now, I am hoping by the time I get back we have got something going.


Good trading to all.
  • #759
  • May 13, 2012 2:54am May 13, 2012 2:54am
P.Dean, the whole point of the thread is the profitability of using no SL.

Nobody doubted that the SL-believer can trade with higher initial risk
and thus be way ahead of the no SL guy (if he belongs to the 5 % or 25 % group which makes money in Forex).

Your suggested competition is besides the point.
  • #760
  • May 13, 2012 3:52am May 13, 2012 3:52am
Quoting P.Dean
I am not the kind of guy to sit and talk i am a action guy.. action is the only thing that gets us traders to anywhere.. so i am not going to argue about your logic or etc, even though i can say a lot.. so..
Ok Bob.. Merlins offer is a farce.. others are stupid and got no logic or don't know math or etc,.. ok.. wouldn't you think at some point you'll need to prove all this one way lectures of yours for years!!.. make it real.. how about just open a small 5k explorer account and trade it like you preach.. prove to all these guys and the world...
I already have done that in the past. I posted every trade before I took them for one year. You can go the Nanninbob 4H trading 5.0 to see past results and every trade for 1 year. No holds barred you will see my winning trades and losing trades. My winning months and the occasional losing month. It is all there.

If you want my present trading system you can visit me at Nanningbob 10.0 and see us trade the 10.2 update of that version every day. Like I said I am an open book and trade what I preach. The problem I face here is how they say I trade and what I actually do you will find are two different things. You will also find professional traders from all over the world will drop in with suggestions and ideas from time to time. So that challenge was taken years ago. You will find that I am a very highly respected trader who is only disrespected here by this very small and tiny group of people. Welcome and you will see I have one of the largest followings at FF and also my stuff is posted on other threads elsewhere around the world.
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