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No SL No Leverage Strategy - working so far

  • #701
  • May 11, 2012 7:56am May 11, 2012 7:56am
Quoting charvo
Chinaman your father!

Shut fock up ur asshole and leave!
Easy tiger...................
Memories caught in time but never forgotten
  • #702
  • May 11, 2012 8:03am May 11, 2012 8:03am
Quoting euclid
Hang on, earlier, you said it was 75.



This is more complicated than I thought. Please teach us more...

Edit:
But seriously Bob, you might want to research something called 'subtraction', and then maybe investigate 'negative numbers'. I'm sure your first graders will help you out if you get stuck. Good luck.
Just so that I get this right because I am sure that I am missing something..

If I take a long trade, perhaps based on the current long term trend and manage it according to my money management but further down the line an opportunity presents itself to also short the pair even if it is just a quick scalp, then at the moment both trades are open, mathematically I have no trades open. I then close the short for a win, pips banked even though the math suggested that I did not have a trade open. The original trade then continues as predicted and is then closed beyond the open of the short trade, pips banked.

According to the math I had no trade open, but my bank balance has now increased, some call it nedging, others call it trading.

The math of course can't be disputed, and neither can an increasing stash.

According to physics we cant make something from nothing, but x1 =0 and y1=0 has just produced a profit...

M.
  • #703
  • May 11, 2012 8:12am May 11, 2012 8:12am
One of the problem about no stop loss is that, u may open many hedging positions temporary. And that is one problem i cannot do to trade, as mentally, i am blocked to close my earlier trade, and i only buy if my earlier negative trade is buy, despite my analysis for that day is sell. My mind get stopped .

However, i do agree this strategy works. as u don't get stop out easy. It works before for me, i grow a small account of $1000.00 to another $1000.00 with 1 dollar a pip within 1 month of 1000pips growth. But soon, fundamental market happens with Aussie selling crazy, and my leverage nearly reach margin call, i then closes my losses at the retracement value. and Re-trade again.

The draw down can be huge.
this is my life
  • #704
  • May 11, 2012 8:12am May 11, 2012 8:12am
Quoting moodybot
Just so that I get this right because I am sure that I am missing something..

If I take a long trade, perhaps based on the current long term trend and manage it according to my money management but further down the line an opportunity presents itself to also short the pair even if it is just a quick scalp, then at the moment both trades are open, mathematically I have no trades open. I then close the short for a win, pips banked even though the math suggested that I did not have a trade open. The original trade then continues as predicted and is...
Yes that is it but when you are dealing with a 1 dimensional thinker, it does not compute. The first grader knows more about math than they do and did you see them choke on a basic pre-algebra problem. It was completely over their head. The bottom line is you now know they are so inept, to dialogue with them further is a total waste of time. Imagine trying to reason with someone that doesnt even understand 1+1=2. That is really hard to fathom but we have evidence of adult human beings that still dont know the first math problem a child learns in first grade. Amazing world isnt it.
  • #705
  • May 11, 2012 8:30am May 11, 2012 8:30am
Quoting nanningbob
Yes that is it but when you are dealing with a 1 dimensional thinker, it does not compute. The first grader knows more about math than they do and did you see them choke on a basic pre-algebra problem. It was completely over their head. The bottom line is you now know they are so inept, to dialogue with them further is a total waste of time. Imagine trying to reason with someone that doesnt even understand 1+1=2. That is really hard to fathom but we have evidence of adult human beings that still dont know the first math problem a child learns in...
I usually have them on the ignore list but im finding this thread the best on FF for entertainment, a buy and a sell mathematically = 0, yep, if closed for a loss, untill then its just a number, I look to close both trades for a win so I don't give two hoots what the math suggest.

M.
  • #706
  • May 11, 2012 10:37am May 11, 2012 10:37am
Quoting pipmutt
lol, this gets funnier the longer it goes on!

Try it with apples as numbers and trades don't seem to be doing the trick!

If I buy 10 apples, and I sell 10 apples, how many apples do I have? 10? 20? 2?......none?
Im still struggling with this, but here goes.

If I buy 10 apples, i have got 10 apples,, if i sell 10 apples I have zero apples.., yep, got that... but in trading I have a bet on +10 apples and seperately a bet on -10 apples... and both can win. But the math says I cant win with zero apples!!

The +10 and -10 apples cancel each other out to zero, or perhaps an apple core( these contain pips remember), but I can still win.. something from nothing... amazing.

If I place a long, I then have a long trade, now trade that as a trade on its own, if I place a short, then I have a short trade, now trade that on its own, how many trades have I got on simultaneously? According to the math its zero..., hands up those who have still got no trades on.

M.
  • #707
  • May 11, 2012 10:52am May 11, 2012 10:52am
Moddy butt one of my favorite pissbulls....lol

i realy like the system x= 25 y=50

so if i understand right i open 2 trades 1 long and 1 short ?
and the first that hit 25 pip profit i close and then the other one turn and i close it at 50 pip profit ?? ??

or is it close the first one when it hit 50 pip profit and then the other turns and i close it at 25 pip profit ??

wich one of them do we use ??
StopLoss is for none belivers... Trust the Gurus..
  • #708
  • May 11, 2012 11:33am May 11, 2012 11:33am
Quoting lillelise
Moddy butt one of my favorite pissbulls....lol

i realy like the system x= 25 y=50

so if i understand right i open 2 trades 1 long and 1 short ?
and the first that hit 25 pip profit i close and then the other one turn and i close it at 50 pip profit ?? ??

or is it close the first one when it hit 50 pip profit and then the other turns and i close it at 25 pip profit ??

wich one of them do we use ??
Ah, lilly, my favourite non helper.

You go for it mate if your unsure where to bet.

I trade an opposite when i think the market will retrace, nedging i think its called, close that, then close the original at some point in the future, always from your favourite method that has no stoploss.
  • #709
  • May 11, 2012 11:43am May 11, 2012 11:43am
Quoting moodybot
Ah, lilly, my favourite non helper.

You go for it mate if your unsure where to bet.

I trade an opposite when i think the market will retrace, nedging i think its called, close that, then close the original at some point in the future, always from your favourite method that has no stoploss.

you are so easy.....lol
StopLoss is for none belivers... Trust the Gurus..
  • #710
  • May 11, 2012 11:57am May 11, 2012 11:57am
Quote
The Nanningbob Hedging Formula - I can solve this.

1) (x1+25) + (y1+50) = 75
2) x1 = y1

Solving for x1 and y1, we get x1=0, y1=0.
Is that your final answer? Are you sure you don't want to phone a friend?

Quote
Hang on, earlier, you said it was 75.
hmm, no he did not. I see you are also having trouble reading.

Quote
This is more complicated than I thought. Please teach us more...
Quote
Edit:
But seriously Bob, you might want to research something called 'subtraction', and then maybe investigate 'negative numbers'. I'm sure your first graders will help you out if you get stuck. Good luck.
Once again, you are the one that needs to go brush up on your math. Please do!

Quote
The draw down can be huge.
It could, but therefore you should apply money management skills. Do not get yourself in that position. Yes, one trade could be -2000 pips, but if it is hedged, the net position could be -100 pips or even +100 pips. It doesn't have to be negative.

Quote
If I buy 10 apples, and I sell 10 apples, how many apples do I have? 10? 20? 2?......none?
Really! You try to simplify a scenario, yet you can't comprehend it. Yoh, wipe that egg of your face.


Quote
i realy like the system x= 25 y=50

so if i understand right i open 2 trades 1 long and 1 short ?
Another one who simply can't understand what was written. Or is it the math that confuses you?

Why do most assume that a buy and sell would be opened simultaneously? Maybe that's why you can't see the benefit of hedging. You just can't think beyond that.
  • #711
  • May 11, 2012 12:03pm May 11, 2012 12:03pm
Quoting lillelise
you are so easy.....lol
Only for you lilly, as always,
  • #712
  • May 11, 2012 12:19pm May 11, 2012 12:19pm
Quoting moodybot
I trade an opposite when i think the market will retrace, nedging i think its called, close that, then close the original at some point in the future, always from your favourite method that has no stoploss.
Pfft. That's just overlapping long and short trades. We all do that. I wouldn't even call that nedging. The fact that some platforms, like MT4, show your position as hedged is just the way those platforms work. Who cares?

I want to hear more from that pan-dimensional thinker and mathematical genius nanningbob. I have so many questions. Just how many dimensions does his mind actually work in? Has he worked out what the [-] button on his calculator is for yet? Maybe he'll come back tomorrow and share some more of his amazing mathematical insights with us.
  • #713
  • May 11, 2012 12:35pm May 11, 2012 12:35pm
Quoting euclid
Pfft. That's just overlapping long and short trades. We all do that. I wouldn't even call that nedging. The fact that some platforms, like MT4, show your position as hedged is just the way those platforms work. Who cares?

I want to hear more from that pan-dimensional thinker and mathematical genius nanningbob. I have so many questions. Just how many dimensions does his mind actually work in? Has he worked out what the [-] button on his calculator is for yet? Maybe he'll come back tomorrow and share some more of his amazing mathematical insights...
Great stuff man. You continue to make an ass out of yourself.
  • #714
  • May 11, 2012 1:34pm May 11, 2012 1:34pm
Quoting moodybot

If I place a long, I then have a long trade, now trade that as a trade on its own, if I place a short, then I have a short trade, now trade that on its own, how many trades have I got on simultaneously? According to the math its zero..., hands up those who have still got no trades on.
So hedging or nedging doesn't even come into the discussion, it's just two trades, one long and one short, right?

If you think price is going to retrace then why not just take profit and reverse the trade and then take profit on the retrace by reversing again for the continuation of the trend?

Aside from that, if you're long 10k and then you short 10k you're flat (no apples), you have no position, no exposure, and no potential for profit. You simply can't escape that fact no matter how much you ignore math, logic, or common sense. If you believe otherwise then please explain.

As regards nedging, NFA examined the strategy in detail and came to the only sensible conclusion, it simply has no financial benefit. Brokers agreed with them. Experienced traders agree with them. Institutional traders agreed with them. Hmmmm....it seems according to some on here they were all wrong, heck they should have consulted the multi dimensional thinkers on FF!
  • #715
  • May 11, 2012 1:35pm May 11, 2012 1:35pm
I would like to know how I can buy a negative 10 apples at my local grocery store? That is funny. With the eur/usd I can buy 10 euros and I can buy 10 usd but how can I buy a negative 10 apples. Fuzzy math there. The desperation to prove that 2 different separate trades, one where I buy euros and a second where I buy usd, does not equal 2 trades but is 0 trades. Where did these guys go to school to get an education?? How absurd is this going to get?? I have been in some interesting debates in my life but 1+1=0 is the most absurd and mentally deficient one I have ever seen. Are these people really that stupid??

It is no wonder why they cant understand a middle school math problem that uses variables. Where were you when they taught you beginning algebra in middle school? Like the one guy said this is very entertaining except there is one problem. These guys really believe 1+1=0. So lets see if I have 0 trades and I close one of them then what do I have? Better yet if I close a trade that does not exist, how can I close it and bank my profit? Interesting dilemma. Then that means the negative trade, all trades start as a negative trade because of costs to take the trade, does not exist and i cant lose money on it? Hmmmmm lets see if a bank would see it that way and take it off the books because in their world of reality it doesnt exist.

PIPMUTTS new trading strategy, 1+1=0 method. You can take two trades by the nedging method. Since they dont exist in reality you cant lose. When one is in profit you can bank the profit and the losing trade disappears because it doesnt exist. No one ever loses. Dang maybe this guy is really on to something. Brilliant strategy. Looking forward to Pippys new thread teaching us how to trade using his new fuzzy math that two trades taken dont exist. 1+1=0 wonder what indicators he will use. We could apply this concept to all two line indis like the Sto. Both lines disappear because they equal 0 now. All married couples are gone because 1+1=0, they dont exist. Wonder if the IRS would accept that as an argument so married couples would not have to pay taxes. HMMMMMMMMM Pippy may be on to something here. This could be the breakthrough of the ages. WOW this could be utterly fantastic.

I could see the clerk at WalMart trying to ring up a negative 10 apples, maybe they would give me money back for them. hmmmmmmmmmm
  • #716
  • May 11, 2012 1:49pm May 11, 2012 1:49pm
Quoting nanningbob

With the eur/usd I can buy 10 euros and I can buy 10 usd
When trading Eur/Usd you're trading one against the other. If you think that 10 eur equals 10 usd or visa versa then you really are in trouble!


Quoting nanningbob

You can take two trades by the nedging method. Since they dont exist in reality you cant lose. When one is in profit you can bank the profit and the losing trade disappears because it doesnt exist.
One quite obviously cancels the other.
  • #717
  • May 11, 2012 2:04pm May 11, 2012 2:04pm
Quoting pipmutt
As regards nedging, NFA examined the strategy in detail and came to the only sensible conclusion, it simply has no financial benefit. Brokers agreed with them. Experienced traders agree with them. Institutional traders agreed with them. Hmmmm....it seems according to some on here they were all wrong, heck they should have consulted the multi dimensional thinkers on FF!
Wow, such convincing 10 pages of reading using such wonderful democratic consensus seeking political words such as "most", "never", etc. No references to the studies conducted. Lot of words, no substantiation other than "hear say". These regulating bodies have such a wonderful track record of saving the world and people from themselves!
Much depend on luck, but the more you practice the luckier you get! NT & GP
  • #718
  • May 11, 2012 2:10pm May 11, 2012 2:10pm
Quoting pa_pips
Wow, such convincing 10 pages of reading using such wonderful democratic consensus seeking political words such as "most", "never", etc. No references to the studies conducted. Lot of words, no substantiation other than "hear say". These regulating bodies have such a wonderful track record of saving the world and people from themselves!
I predicted if you give Pippy enough rope he would hang himself. A negative 10 apples. I had apple trees on our farm when I was young. My dad would tell me to go get x number of apples for supper. Wonder what he would do to my bottom if I came back with a negative 10 apples?
  • #719
  • May 11, 2012 2:48pm May 11, 2012 2:48pm
Quoting pa_pips

No references to the studies conducted. Lot of words, no substantiation other than "hear say".
There's a link to the document in this thread somewhere, also you could do your own research on the subject.

Is it coincidence that NFA, brokers, experienced traders, and institutional traders all agree? You, apparently, know better than all of them. Hmmmm....


Quoting pa_pips

These regulating bodies have such a wonderful track record of saving the world and people from themselves!
Well there has been some useful and effective legislation introduced recently to help protect retail forex traders, and that's always welcome albeit long overdue.
  • #720
  • May 11, 2012 4:33pm May 11, 2012 4:33pm
Quoting moodybot
If I take a long trade, perhaps based on the current long term trend and manage it according to my money management but further down the line an opportunity presents itself to also short the pair even if it is just a quick scalp, then at the moment both trades are open, mathematically I have no trades open. I then close the short for a win, pips banked even though the math suggested that I did not have a trade open. The original trade then continues as predicted and is then closed beyond the open of the short trade, pips banked.
M.
Let's see how that works. Trader A and trader B are both excellent traders, both reading the charts and fundamentals the same way. Both buy the euro at 1.30 with a long term target of 1.40. When the euro hits 1.36 they both think it will first go down to 1.33 before finally reaching 1.40.

Trader A. Buy 1.30. When price gets to 1.36 nedges by opening a sell position which he then closes at 1.33 (= 300 pips gain). The main long position is closed at 1.40 (= 1000 pips gained). Total 1300.

Trader B. Buy 1.30. When price gets to 1.36 and correction is expected he closes his long position = 600 pips profit. Sells 1.36 - closed at 1.33 = 300 pips profit. Long reinstated at 1.33, closed at 1.40 = 700 pips profit. Total 1600 pips profit, that is 300 pips more than trader A (the nedger).

Where does that difference come from? It's exactly the 300 pips wasted by the nedger when he had both positions open. If on the road from 1.30 to 1.40 we have multiple retracements and every time trader A hedges while trader B closes his main position, takes profit on a short, then reopens his long, things look even worse for A compared to B. The only way you can make trader A gain more pips than trader B is if you simply give him an edge in reading the market (e.g. trader A knows that a correction is due and hedges while trader B doesn't "feel" it coming and does nothing). But then of course the profit would be the result of being better as a technical or fundamental trader. The money management by itself will always (assuming equal trading skills) favor the non-hedger.

It should also be mentioned that the above scenario is in fact the ideal one for the nedger. In the real world of forex trading the nedge is not used by many to increase profit on an already profitable trade by catching a small reversal. It is used when people try to minimize the losses on a trade that went south (because they refuse to use SL). A much more common occurrence is the next: Trader A buys 1.30 ... price drops ... at 1.29 he sells freezing a 100 pip loss. The price drops to 1.2850, he grabs a small 50 pip profit thinking that price will go back up to 1.30. But it only moves to 1.2925, then falls again. Around 1.28 he panics, sells again. Now the difference between the 2 positions is 200 pips. He only banked 50, but he has a 200 point floating loss. The price moves up and down, and every time it reaches one of the extremes a position is closed for a small profit ... however the next nedge is opened even further apart. The 2 positions end up being separated by hundreds of pips and invariably at one point the trader discovers that he is bought at a top and/or sold at a bottom of the current price range.

I have done extensive mathematical simulations of various nedging techniques and found them to work only when:
1. The price never leaves a well defined range (e.g. never lower than 1.20, never higher than 1.40).
2. The lot size is very very small compared to the account size, allowing for drawdowns of many thousands of pips (and don't forget the margin, plus the swaps).
OR
3. The trader/system is so good that he/it can never get the market direction wrong more than 2-3 times in a row (see the pdf I attached earlier with detailed explanations).
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