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Zero Sum Game - Debt

  • #41
  • Apr 16, 2012 10:25pm Apr 16, 2012 10:25pm
Quoting CindyXXXX
o dear here it comes...
See this is what I was talking about

To summarize: adabadeblah blah
Time hides Nothing
  • #42
  • Apr 16, 2012 10:36pm Apr 16, 2012 10:36pm
Quoting Slim Buffett

OK, do you understand the meaning of competitive as opposed to non-competitive?

Read this carefully: "non-zero-sum games can be either competitive or non-competitive"

Trading forex is not always competitive. That isn't so difficult to comprehend. But you have to realize all the "players" that are involved.

If you don't realize the multitude of individuals, corporations, on and on, not all of them simply trading for profit but corporations and countries trying to protect a trade advantage or hedging on overseas payroll.

Well, you're really not as educated as you would like people to believe.

And who facilitates all those transactions?

If you don't understand the significance of the question then 'you're really not as educated as you would like people to believe.'
  • #43
  • Apr 16, 2012 10:41pm Apr 16, 2012 10:41pm
Quoting CindyXXXX

See this is what I was talking about

To summarize: adabadeblah blah
lol, you got that right!
  • #44
  • Apr 16, 2012 10:42pm Apr 16, 2012 10:42pm
IMHO, this is all highly debatable.

A theorist may look at forex as a zero sum game. A zero sum game by definition is a game where one player's (or players) reward/gain necessarily translates into a cost/loss for other player (or players).

A pragmatist may see forex as negative sum game, cause the mere act of placing a trade carries a hidden cost (ie, spread/commission paid to brokerage services) irrespective of the trade's outcome (this true for the vast majority of players).

Finally, a 1337 trader who is profitable week in week out, is likely to look at forex as a positive sum game (think compounding! ).
"To hold, you must first open your hand. Let go." - Lao Tzu
  • #45
  • Apr 16, 2012 10:46pm Apr 16, 2012 10:46pm
Quoting Tact1cal
Slim is right, the fact that the exchange is used for utility purposes makes the exchange non zero-sum by definition. When a company exchanges for the purpose of paying employees the fact that they are not competing to "win" negates the zero-sum argument because ALL participants would need to be competing to "win" for it to be zero sum by definition.

Wasn't expecting to change my opinion on that one today, much less in a thread where I disagreed a page ago. Well, that's enough semantics for me today.

Which is kinda what Abi was getting at to begin with, but anyway...

You can't compare Forex markets to a coin toss, because obviously they're a lot more complicated than that. But at the core of trading buyers need sellers, sellers need buyers.

To complicate things further the middlemen - the market charge commissions for all transactions. Further more, outstanding positions may appreciate or depreciate, through the changes in price and to complicate matters more, inflationary effects.

Markets simply exist to facilitate this fact and connect sellers with buyers. Even though one may not be "competing" with the opposite end of their transaction, liquidity for the other side of that transaction still needs to come from somewhere. Whether the true value of this amount be different to the time the amount was initially instigated from inflation or additions to the money supply or whatever, at the end of the day if I want to buy $100 of AUD in US dollars I need someone or a group of someones to Sell me $100 of AUD. Tomorrow one of us will be better or worse off for making that decision. and my loss or gain is their gain or loss.

At it simplest form markets work on the basis of zero sum, but they are obviously not as simple as a spurr of the moment coin toss, for this reason it is easy to make an argument against the text book definition of zero sum and it's relation to forex trading. But at it's core FOREX and any other market work from a ground up basis of zero sum, it's just the complexities of everything that happens after an initial transaction that blow the text book definition to sh*t. So everyone right imo... It just depends how deeply you want to get into it. Which is also why it's a frustrating topic to argue about.

Just my ramblings on the matter.
Time hides Nothing
  • #46
  • Apr 17, 2012 12:49am Apr 17, 2012 12:49am
Quoting CindyXXXX

...it's just the complexities of everything that happens after an initial transaction.....So everyone right imo... It just depends how deeply you want to get into it. Which is also why it's a frustrating topic to argue about.
I agree, frustrating and to some degree pointless. Both sides of the debate have merit but ultimately neither are going to be conclusive simply because of, as you say, the complexities of process not to mention diversity of motive.

Besides, who really gives a shit one way or the other! http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/shrug2.gif
  • #47
  • Apr 17, 2012 12:54am Apr 17, 2012 12:54am
Quoting pipmutt
I agree, frustrating and to some degree pointless. Both sides of the debate have merit but ultimately neither are going to be conclusive simply because of, as you say, the complexities of process not to mention diversity of motive.

Besides, who really gives a shit one way or the other! http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/shrug2.gif
lol we do apparently...

Anyyyy wayyyyy

Seen it all before haven't we Pip.. And do I get your vote? haha

Ahh back to the books.
Time hides Nothing
  • #48
  • Apr 17, 2012 1:11am Apr 17, 2012 1:11am
Quoting CindyXXXX

Seen it all before haven't we Pip..
Over and over, nearly as often as the seemingly never ending stop/no-stop fiasco!


Quoting CindyXXXX

And do I get your vote?
Oh multiple times, but I suppose that's not 'politically correct' so you'll just have to make do, lol.
  • #49
  • Apr 17, 2012 2:28am Apr 17, 2012 2:28am
Quoting pipmutt
Over and over, nearly as often as the seemingly never ending stop/no-stop fiasco!




Oh multiple times, but I suppose that's not 'politically correct' so you'll just have to make do, lol.
Them and the "it's impossible to make more than 50% per anum" beauty.

I feel for all rookies starting out in trading on here because the amount of misinformation and unsubstantiated theory that flies around the forum is quite overwhelming.

I really couldn't care less whether Forex is a zero sum game, I don't really understand the desire to find out. It'll present the same opportunity to us whether it is or it isn't, it's up to us as individuals to prove to ourselves whether or not we can profit from those opportunities. If we can and we do, everything else is largely unimportant.

It's the most simple business model in the world. You either bet and win or you bet and lose.
  • #50
  • Apr 17, 2012 4:47am Apr 17, 2012 4:47am
Quoting Trotty

It's the most simple business model in the world. You either bet and win or you bet and lose.
The model might be simple, it's the implementation which causes the problems!

I agree with the rest, misinformation and misguided opinion, it's a minefield out there!
  • #51
  • Last Post: Apr 17, 2012 5:07am Apr 17, 2012 5:07am
Quoting pipmutt
The model might be simple, it's the implementation which causes the problems!
That, just as a standalone statement, is why trading is such a trap.

It is incredibly simple in concept. Two directions price can go in, choose one and see what happens.

I think a little part of every trader thought it really was as black and white as that at the outset
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