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  • #461
  • Apr 8, 2012 4:33pm Apr 8, 2012 4:33pm
Quoting bluesteele
How bout old Larry Williams...
I believe that Larry Williams was managing OPM during 1987 when he won the Robbins Trading Co contest. His returns for 1987 across all accounts showed a loss of $6,122,281, but his personal account that won the competition achieved a gain of $902,599.

One account out of a great many that he was managing did well, and he lost over 6M across the remainder of the accounts ! Not quite so impressive when you look at the reality.

The following is taken from a thread on elite trader:

"In July 1988, the Larry Williams Financial Strategy Fund was launched, followed in March 1989 by the World Cup Championship Fund, managed by Larry Williams, Jake Bernstein and two other “traders.” The 1988 fund lost more than 50% of its clients’ equity in barely one year, as reported in the October 1989 issue of Futures magazine. The 1989 fund also lost more than half of its original equity by May 1990.

So, Larry tried at least 3 different times to manage client money with surprisingly disastrous results. These are facts."

I dont think Larry Williams stands up to scrutiny.
  • #462
  • Apr 8, 2012 4:49pm Apr 8, 2012 4:49pm
Traders have losing years. Especially if you have been in the game long enough.

Larry stands up to scrutiny far more than you may imagine. Have you sat with the man personally and watched him trade live?

Let's just say he walks the walk and would probably out trade 99.9% of us here on this forum.

Have you seen his statements? I have and I'm not talking about his trade statements from the cup. I'm talking many many statements from the last 5 -7 yrs.

All substantial profits. Does that mean he may have other losing accts? He may have...

Theres a world of difference trading ones own money and trading others.

Being great at one does not necessarily mean you will be good at the other.
Master your Mind,,,Master the Market
  • #463
  • Apr 8, 2012 6:00pm Apr 8, 2012 6:00pm
Quoting bluesteele
All substantial profits. Does that mean he may have other losing accts? He may have...
But thats the problem. If you trade 20 different systems based on a variety of simple MA crosses, and you'll get a bunch of them doing OK. You can even achieve the same thing trading a coin toss. If you diversify enough, its amazing how often you'll get a great equity curve just by random chance alone.

Its rather ridiculous to retrospectively pick out equity curves that did well, and ignore the ones that failed. The reality is you get judged on the sum total, and unless he's prepared to subject all of his accounts to scrutiny, showing selective statements is rather pointless.

Regardless of his performance, Larry Williams isnt a CTA, and he doesnt have an independantly audited track record. Claiming Larry made 11,000% is no more valid than any member at FF making similar unsubstantiated claims.
  • #464
  • Apr 8, 2012 8:17pm Apr 8, 2012 8:17pm
Quoting Razzle
But thats the problem. If you trade 20 different systems based on a variety of simple MA crosses, and you'll get a bunch of them doing OK. You can even achieve the same thing trading a coin toss. If you diversify enough, its amazing how often you'll get a great equity curve just by random chance alone.

Its rather ridiculous to retrospectively pick out equity curves that did well, and ignore the ones that failed. The reality is you get judged on the sum total, and unless he's prepared to subject all of his accounts to scrutiny, showing selective...

So what your saying is that the Robbins cup is all bull?
Master your Mind,,,Master the Market
  • #465
  • Apr 8, 2012 8:41pm Apr 8, 2012 8:41pm
Just a few names of Larry's students....

Hmmmm... Chuck Hughes, Kurt Sakaeda, Andrea Unger....

You might recognize Tom DeMark... LOL...

Some across seas may recognize Kushal Thaker one of the largest traders
in India.

As well as many Hedge fund mgrs.

Who would I listen to.... Razzle on FF or Larry Williams.

Sorry bud but I think Larry's got ya. Nothing personal...
Master your Mind,,,Master the Market
  • #466
  • Apr 8, 2012 9:24pm Apr 8, 2012 9:24pm
Quoting bluesteele
Just a few names of Larry's students....

Hmmmm... Chuck Hughes, Kurt Sakaeda, Andrea Unger....

You might recognize Tom DeMark... LOL...

Some across seas may recognize Kushal Thaker one of the largest traders
in India.

As well as many Hedge fund mgrs.

Who would I listen to.... Razzle on FF or Larry Williams.

Sorry bud but I think Larry's got ya. Nothing personal...
Sorry but I don't think any of those guys have 7 vouchers.
  • #467
  • Apr 8, 2012 9:34pm Apr 8, 2012 9:34pm
Quoting RRRulio
Sorry but I don't think any of those guys have 7 vouchers.
Wut was I thinkin?????
Master your Mind,,,Master the Market
  • #468
  • Apr 8, 2012 11:36pm Apr 8, 2012 11:36pm
Quoting 60minuteman
the important word in the statement was "good" day and "good" week..

average day and week obviously different...
Don't let 'em bring you down 60MM. Many believe what they believe because their mentor told them they could not achieve (that which the mentor could not).

Eventually, servants become the masters and new realities become the norm. Those who say "that can't happen" when something is merely a bit difficult, always get left behind.


always
When the Joker is in the deck.. fear not and play it well
  • #469
  • Apr 9, 2012 3:16am Apr 9, 2012 3:16am
Quoting RRRulio

Sorry but I don't think any of those guys have 7 vouchers.
lol, now that was funny!
  • #470
  • Apr 9, 2012 3:22am Apr 9, 2012 3:22am
Quoting bluesteele

Have you sat with the man personally and watched him trade live?
Come on Blue, give us the skinny, what's his trading strategy dammit!

It's based around his %R right?
  • #471
  • Apr 9, 2012 4:17am Apr 9, 2012 4:17am
Quoting j4d
Hey 60,

If its correct that you say you are managing 15% a week, you are doing what most of the professionals can't do, so if you are correct with your figures a massive well done to you. 60 % a month with compounding interest is, well phenomenal.

Now there probably is the odd trader doing these sort of %, but there probably on a small account, and for a few months and not year in year out.

I would be interested to know 60 if that's for a minimum of 1 year, or 2 years etc. As lets face it we are all in this for the long haul, right.

Every...
Hi J4d,

I have recently changed my trading, and those figures I quoted are on the previous 2 months live and nearly 2 months in demo.

Although technically I am doing the same as I was before, my results have improved dramatically.

All I have really changed is, removing any discretionary rules, writing it down exactly what my rules are, and then trading them.

So now every element of my trading from setting my charts, to risk per trade is written down and followed to the letter.

Most of the week I am usually -2%, break even, or maybe +2%, but when the higher tf kicks in I can get 2 or 3 trades running to 3/1 with 2% account risk on each... thats your big day and the week is done for you. If it doesn't come then I have a small loss or gain for the week.

All my rules are on the first page of my thread, and anyone could easily check what the results would of been on h4 last week over the majors... forex markets are the trendiest markets and a rule based trend following system can work really well with discipline.

Finally, I am trading a small account, and if it grows I will obviously reduce the risk per trade, and so the %age account growth will reduce too..
tradewith60
  • #472
  • Apr 9, 2012 4:22am Apr 9, 2012 4:22am
Quoting Slim Buffett
Don't let 'em bring you down 60MM. Many believe what they believe because their mentor told them they could not achieve (that which the mentor could not).

Eventually, servants become the masters and new realities become the norm. Those who say "that can't happen" when something is merely a bit difficult, always get left behind.


always
nice comments Slim...

nothing on here could bring me down, my trading is completely non-discretionary and I keep accurate and honest trading records..

With my current set up and size of account, everything I said is entirely possible...

you only need to hit 2 or 3 good trades a week..
tradewith60
  • #473
  • Apr 9, 2012 4:50am Apr 9, 2012 4:50am
Quoting 60minuteman
Hi J4d,

I have recently changed my trading, and those figures I quoted are on the previous 2 months live and nearly 2 months in demo.

Although technically I am doing the same as I was before, my results have improved dramatically.

All I have really changed is, removing any discretionary rules, writing it down exactly what my rules are, and then trading them.

So now every element of my trading from setting my charts, to risk per trade is written down and followed to the letter.

Most of the week I am usually -2%, break even, or maybe +2%, but...
Hey 60

My experience on the subject of reasonable % gain, is exactly what it is....My experience. This does not mean its right for you or the next trader who will comment on it, it just means that in my part of the world what I state is my reality...

Sure everyone's perception as to what they would like/actually earn is going to be different.

I can only say about my reality as I experience it...............

I wish you and everyone on the thread the very best with there trading....

Ja.
Memories caught in time but never forgotten
  • #474
  • Apr 9, 2012 5:00am Apr 9, 2012 5:00am
Quoting bluesteele
Who would I listen to.... Razzle on FF or Larry Williams....
You (and many others) would probably listen to Larry Williams

If it works for you that's great. Just pointing out that none of these people have audited track records, and their history of managing OPM has been worse than appalling.

Anyone can have a bad year, but consecutive losing years, and losing over 50% of clients funds in each case, isnt a track record I'd be comfortable with.

However thats the price you pay for the occassional 11,000% gain. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with trading.
  • #475
  • Apr 9, 2012 5:18am Apr 9, 2012 5:18am
The best trader ever is George Soros. Average yearly return of 20 % over 40 years. That's consistency.
  • #476
  • Apr 9, 2012 10:43am Apr 9, 2012 10:43am
Quoting Razzle
You (and many others) would probably listen to Larry Williams

If it works for you that's great. Just pointing out that none of these people have audited track records, and their history of managing OPM has been worse than appalling.

Anyone can have a bad year, but consecutive losing years, and losing over 50% of clients funds in each case, isnt a track record I'd be comfortable with.

However thats the price you pay for the occassional 11,000% gain. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with trading.

None of his students who are now professionals and use Larry's methods do not have any audited records. LOL....

Yep your right...

BTW did you know Obama is not the president of the USA. nope he's not.

Anyways your 100% wrong when you say none of his students or those tht I mention do not have a audited track record.

Hang on I've used more than 30 words. DOH !
Master your Mind,,,Master the Market
  • #477
  • Apr 9, 2012 10:55am Apr 9, 2012 10:55am
Quoting bluesteele
None of his students who are now professionals and use Larry's methods do not have any audited records. LOL....

Yep your right...

BTW did you know Obama is not the president of the USA. nope he's not.

Anyways your 100% wrong when you say none of his students or those tht I mention do not have a audited track record.

Hang on I've used more than 30 words. DOH !
why, instead of just saying he is wrong, do you not point us to the audited track records? Would for sure be great to see.
  • #478
  • Apr 9, 2012 12:30pm Apr 9, 2012 12:30pm
Quoting 60minuteman
Hi J4d,

I have recently changed my trading, and those figures I quoted are on the previous 2 months live and nearly 2 months in demo.

Although technically I am doing the same as I was before, my results have improved dramatically.

All I have really changed is, removing any discretionary rules, writing it down exactly what my rules are, and then trading them.

So now every element of my trading from setting my charts, to risk per trade is written down and followed to the letter.

Most of the week I am usually -2%, break even, or maybe...
Nice work 60mm, trends and sr are all you need, great results too, keep up the great work.
  • #479
  • Apr 9, 2012 12:31pm Apr 9, 2012 12:31pm
Quoting Custos
why, instead of just saying he is wrong, do you not point us to the audited track records? Would for sure be great to see.
Who gives a toss whether their results are audited?
  • #480
  • Edited 1:19pm Apr 9, 2012 1:01pm | Edited 1:19pm
Quoting jag1966
Who gives a toss whether their results are audited?
to see if the claimed results have actually been achieved. Anyways, if bluesteel knows that they are audited, maybe he also knows where one can find the audited results.

I don't know why that should be so outrageous. Would you invest in a company if the financial statements were not audited? I wouldn't.

And I wouldn't "invest" in a trading style, if I didn't see audited results, (or a verification by myself). That's just common sense. But if everybody had common sense, the market would be efficient. So I am glad that for some of you such things are not so obvious.
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