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It's A Heart-Mind Game... Are You Ready?

  • #401
  • Edited 2:47pm Mar 30, 2012 5:59am | Edited 2:47pm
In light of the purpose of this thread, I think this post by Dopey is ideal. Hope some of you have been taking the tests posted earlier in this thread seriously. I think there were three in total thus far.

Enjoy,

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #402
  • Mar 30, 2012 9:49pm Mar 30, 2012 9:49pm
Subby sent an email late to NeverAgain.


Hi there,

Hope you're doing fine. My week went well...just took my time to place good trades. Growing the account slowly. Free to chat in the a.m.

Have a good night.

Subby


Looks like they might chat in the morning.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #403
  • Edited 2:03pm Mar 31, 2012 9:51am | Edited 2:03pm
Subby and NeverAgain get to touch bases...


NeveAgain: Hi Subby, how have you been?

Subby: Pretty good, and yourself?

NeverAgain: Can't complain. A little busy but good.

Subby: Just wanted to touch bases with you about my trading week. Things went well...very calm. I find myself now more focused on me: making sure I stay where I need to stay. DoingWell's system works, so no worries. My new time-frames are working well too.

NeverAgain: Glad to hear it. How are you handling your moving back up in your account balance?

Subby: I think I got over the shock of it, so now I am just comfortable and settled with taking it as it comes. No need to put on a show or play hero, right?

NeverAgain: You got it!

Subby: I plan to take my time again...kinda like trading with the calm of the ocean. Seems to be working well. I feel more "at home".

NeverAgain: Great Subby! Well keep me posted will ya. Working on something next for you when you are ready.

Subby: Okay. Will be in touch. Enjoy the weekend.

NeverAgain: You too Subby. Take care.


Will be following Subby again next week, until he is ready to see NeverAgain.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #404
  • Apr 1, 2012 7:58am Apr 1, 2012 7:58am
I took the Tharp test a few months ago and it was very accurate. I would suspect confirmation bias, only that the test told me things I already had identified and to a certain extent I had already taken steps in order to fix them.

So, it turns out I am a "detailed trader". My strengths were pretty accurately described in the report: I understand systems easily and can execute them accurately. I can take this seriously and devote the required time, energy and focus. I am very analytical and can dissect successfully all components of a system (also helped by programming experience and algorithm creation).


Weaknesses: Indeed, as mentioned in the report, I don't perform well under stress. I make lots of mistakes in stressful situations (however the report is wrong in that I don't recognize my mistakes - I always do, even if I repeat them). I am often overly critical of myself.

My solutions for my weaknesses have been to try and develop a fully automated trading system for lower timeframes, so that stress will have no effect on it. Also, trade manually only higher timeframes, which eliminates stress and makes planning easier.

So the test results have been mostly accurate, but I doubt I would have taken them seriously if I hadn't discovered the same things myself, the hard way...
  • #405
  • Apr 1, 2012 8:55am Apr 1, 2012 8:55am
Quoting micmic
I took the Tharp test a few months ago and it was very accurate. I would suspect confirmation bias, only that the test told me things I already had identified and to a certain extent I had already taken steps in order to fix them.

So, it turns out I am a "detailed trader". My strengths were pretty accurately described in the report: I understand systems easily and can execute them accurately. I can take this seriously and devote the required time, energy and focus. I am very analytical and can dissect successfully all components of a system...
Just as years ago, technical analysis was considered taboo by the trading world, now it is the in-thing...every platform comes loaded with stuff. I think many traders don't really believe these tests will have any real benefit or are even relevant at all to their trading success.

Glad you got confirmation and have put some things in place to help.

Great job!

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #406
  • Apr 2, 2012 10:59pm Apr 2, 2012 10:59pm
Here is something you might enjoy. Notice the heart-mind of this Blackjack champion. It also gives a good overview of the trading process.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #407
  • Edited 2:35pm Apr 3, 2012 10:13am | Edited 2:35pm
How many times have you entered a trade with the hopes that the market will "prove you right"? If you did place a trade, based on your idea/belief and the market DID "prove you right", how did you feel? That could be a hint as to what is behind staying in a losing trade.

If you trade that way on a regular basis, chances are you you'll probably lose overall. Trade what the market shows you, when it shows it...don't worry about what you think price should/will/might/can or can't do. Don't try to think for price: more often than not, it won't follow you . If you're wrong, just...

1. Swallow your pride: admit you're wrong/lost in the process.

2. Pull over on the shoulder and check your map (trading plan) again.

3. If you need to, stop and ask the market for directions.

4. Turn the "trading car" around if necessary or be more patient to wait for better timing.

5. Find a way to make up for the loss: time, money or whatever.

Don't keep driving the wrong way until you're out of gas...emotionally or otherwise.


If you find that your thinking is in sync with the market, then trust yourself and go with it. No need to keep analyzing then. Just keep on driving . Your preparation is paying off.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #408
  • Apr 3, 2012 11:20pm Apr 3, 2012 11:20pm
It's a new month, and Subby has been very focused since the end of March, trying to get back on track. He just emailed NeverAgain his balance curve so far for April. Looks like he's getting back on track. Go Subby!!! Patience and consistency are his watchwords for now.

FX4
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Subbys Balance 2-6 April.jpg Size: 25 KB
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #409
  • Apr 4, 2012 3:43pm Apr 4, 2012 3:43pm
Subby got an email back from NeverAgain:


Hi Subby,

Just looked at your new balance curve for April. Nice job! I noticed how you managed to keep your balance above that horizontal line. I am assuming you didn't have that line up there while you were placing those trades. Just might be an image of how your subconscious mind is working ...expressing a little caution; not too much fear.

Also, I like the angle of ascent on the move up from there. Not quite a 45- degree angle. Shows stability to me...something that is sustainable; not too explosive or volatile-looking. Certainly not a parabolic move.

Don't think we'll meet this Friday. But please, if any thing should come up, don't hesitate to call or email. Will catch up again next week...got some more stuff planned for you.

Keep up the good work,

NeverAgain

P.S. DoingWell sends his regards.


The analysis NeverAgain did on Subby's balance curve is attached.

FX4
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Subbys Balance 2-6 April-2.jpg Size: 26 KB
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #410
  • Apr 4, 2012 5:48pm Apr 4, 2012 5:48pm
Quoting FX4Newbies
How many times have you entered a trade with the hopes that the market will "prove you right"? If you did place a trade, based on your idea/belief and the market DID "prove you right", how did you feel? That could be a hint as to what is behind staying in a losing trade.

If you trade that way on a regular basis, chances are you you'll probably lose overall. Trade what the market shows you, when it shows it...don't worry about what you think price should/will/might/can or can't do. Don't try to think for price: more often than not, it...
Thanks for that. This is a good reminder for me.

Martin
  • #411
  • Edited Apr 5, 2012 4:08am Apr 4, 2012 7:35pm | Edited Apr 5, 2012 4:08am
Quoting arjfca
Thanks for that. This is a good reminder for me.

Martin
Hi Arjfca,

Been there done that myself. Now I think it is easier for me to spot, stop and by-pass that heart-mind trap.

Most welcome,

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #412
  • Apr 8, 2012 12:11pm Apr 8, 2012 12:11pm
Quoting FX4Newbies
1. Swallow your pride: admit you're wrong/lost in the process.

2. Pull over on the shoulder and check your map (trading plan) again.

3. If you need to, stop and ask the market for directions.

4. Turn the "trading car" around if necessary or be more patient to wait for better timing.

5. Find a way to make up for the loss: time, money or whatever.

Don't keep driving the wrong way until you're out of gas...emotionally or otherwise.


If you find that your thinking is in sync with the market, then trust yourself and go with...
"1. Swallow your pride: admit you're wrong/lost in the process."
It's not enough to do this. Sometimes the energy for reason or emotion is too strong to deal with, and throws off one's capacity to do step 1.
I'd rather know exactly and in the same language what made me 'wrong/lost', so that I can relate to the wrong as well as the right on even terms. Then I can trade with a larger range of self-correction, one that expands upon your post's.

Staying with reason, as you say, can be helpful or get in the way --

(helpful)
Thus, I may get confused on a chart study, there being more objects to study than I can handle at the time. I think about what else has gone on recently in my life, and sense that I am somewhat anchored on a recent problem. I let go of that problem for a minute and refocus that energy on the confusion now at hand, and so deal effectively with and win the current trade.
Interpreting my nontrading life, during the trade, in the same language as I do a chart study, enables me to do and act upon this rational intersituational comparison.

(works emotion with reason about the same)
Your post.
It seems that a reason was emotionally supported,
and then one all of a sudden, thru new (chart) information perhaps, that reason is undermined,
and one has extra energy from the supportive emotion to expend / let go of,
so that one can then redefine a new reason to support
and so save one's trade.

(gets in the way)
Extra energy from emotion is ignored and unexpressed reason for the emotion confuses. Confusion plus extra energy pushes reason to wait for more information. If it were a negative, justified emotion, more information means a lost trade.
So if I use the same framework thru each step of my chart study,
and then a fast, unconsciously expressed gut (i.e., mindbody) trace that an emotion attaches to consciously goes thru after I enter a trade, based on new or reconsidered information,
I finally have a better chance of reacting appropriately to that emotion with a change in that trade.
  • #413
  • Apr 9, 2012 2:20am Apr 9, 2012 2:20am
Quoting ha-pattern
"1. Swallow your pride: admit you're wrong/lost in the process."
It's not enough to do this. Sometimes the energy for reason or emotion is too strong to deal with, and throws off one's capacity to do step 1.
I'd rather know exactly and in the same language what made me 'wrong/lost', so that I can relate to the wrong as well as the right on even terms. Then I can trade with a larger range of self-correction, one that expands upon your post's.

Staying with reason, as you say, can be helpful or get in the way --

(helpful)
Thus, I may get...
Good point Ha-Pattern:

"1. Swallow your pride: admit you're wrong/lost in the process."
It's not enough to do this. Sometimes the energy for reason or emotion is too strong to deal with, and throws off one's capacity to do step 1.
I'd rather know exactly and in the same language what made me 'wrong/lost', so that I can relate to the wrong as well as the right on even terms. Then I can trade with a larger range of self-correction, one that expands upon your post's.

I certainly was in presumption mode here, as that is something I do as a rule...go back and figure out what happened. Glad you brought it to the forefront as it is a key part in adjusting one's trading process.

Good (thinking) eye.


I think about what else has gone on recently in my life, and sense that I am somewhat anchored on a recent problem.

That's a good one too to look out for.


It seems that a reason was emotionally supported, and then one all of a sudden, thru new (chart) information perhaps, that reason is undermined, and one has extra energy from the supportive emotion to expend / let go of, so that one can then redefine a new reason to support and so save one's trade.

Can happen easily. So a trader needs to find the "right balance" between being flexible and being steady in their trading perspectives as the dynamic market will provide opportunities both ways on its way to where the bias is heading currently. Easiest to stay with the market bias of the longer TFs.


Confusion plus extra energy pushes reason to wait for more information.

When confused, wait or look for opportunity to go with what has just been "confirmed" on the longer TF.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #414
  • Edited 3:01pm Apr 9, 2012 6:56am | Edited 3:01pm
Thanks for answering.
Quoting FX4Newbies
It seems that a reason was emotionally supported, and then one all of a sudden, thru new (chart) information perhaps, that reason is undermined, and one has extra energy from the supportive emotion to expend / let go of, so that one can then redefine a new reason to support and so save one's trade.
Quoting FX4Newbies
Can happen easily. So a trader needs to find the "right balance" between being flexible and being steady in their trading perspectives as the dynamic market will provide opportunities both ways on its way to where the bias is heading currently. Easiest to stay with the market bias of the longer TFs.
.
Agreed, except my personal preference is to find another reason in or near the original reason and so only need to wait a relatively few more candles on the same TF. Saves money per hour efficiency.
Quoting FX4Newbies
Confusion plus extra energy pushes reason to wait for more information.
When confused, wait or look for opportunity to go with what has just been "confirmed" on the longer TF.
NO! As you say, a confused reason is a short-term bad trade that must be reconsidered in light of promise over the longer term.
But to accept that it is confused and stop the bad trade from continuing or happening, is a different animal. Immediate action is necessary, then.

I'd rather trust emotion, which partners with reason to guide action. Gut intuition, in the subconscious here, as an interrupt with support from a pure emotion, is more likely right.
Emotion demands immediate action. Positive: Reason must acquiesce and allow more profit. Negative: Reason -- "Accept loss fast".

Ego took over for reason and emotion, supporting the status quo which is now reason and putting forth energy without direction -- "stay with the trade", it says -- after reason had set the trade.
If ego gets too strong or goes with the flow too much, it ignores a signal from emotion to stop the current trade.


Of course, that's just one example. I've got a lot of practice yet.
Good trading to you.
  • #415
  • Apr 10, 2012 8:55am Apr 10, 2012 8:55am
Quoting ha-pattern
Thanks for answering.
.
Agreed, except my personal preference is to find another reason in or near the original reason and so only need to wait a relatively few more candles on the same TF. Saves money per hour efficiency.

NO! As you say, a confused reason is a short-term bad trade that must be reconsidered in light of promise over the longer term.
But to accept that it is confused and stop the bad trade from continuing or happening, is a different animal. Immediate action is necessary, then.

I'd rather trust emotion, which partners with reason...
Hi Ha-Pattern,

Will pick this up later on today.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #416
  • Edited 9:33am Apr 10, 2012 9:15am | Edited 9:33am
Had a thought I wanted to share. Discussions welcome.

Sometimes traders have a tendency to want to predict price action. I think this tendency can be spotted when price is doing one thing, but a trade is placed, because the trader is anticipating...or thinking through...what the market might do, and in the end, when PA plays out, the trader wonders, "Why/how did I place that trade, there?" Then, if ego was involved, it becomes harder to remove the trade, even when it becomes obvious that it is wrong.

I was thinking that maybe the issue of wanting to predict has a connection or desire to try to control the market. If a trader can "successfully predict" PA, then the greater sense of "control" may give the trader a more secure feeling. The challenge comes, when the "prediction" is wrong and that feeling of security is threatened. Wanting to feel "safe" could be a fear issue, or not accepting the risk that is involved.

In addition, if a trader tends to feel "out of control", maybe they are really afraid of their own propensities and don't really trust themselves to do what they know they should do.

The safest way to trade is to learn to follow the market...let it lead.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #417
  • Apr 10, 2012 10:00am Apr 10, 2012 10:00am
Quoting FX4Newbies
Had a thought I wanted to share. Discussions welcome.

Sometimes traders have a tendency to want to predict price action. I think this tendency can be spotted when price is doing one thing, but a trade is placed, because the trader is anticipating...or thinking through...what the market might do, and in the end, when PA plays out, the trader wonders, "Why/how did I place that trade, there?" Then, if ego was involved, it becomes harder to remove the trade, even when it becomes obvious that it is wrong.

I was thinking that maybe...

I don't know why it is so often said that "you don't need to predict where the market will go in order to make money". You do need to predict it. Not with 100% accuracy, but with enough accuracy. This is included in the definition of "prediction":

Quote
anticipation, prevision
projection - a prediction made by extrapolating from past observations

You will notice that prediction does not equal conviction, and the words "anticipation" and "projection" are also present. So, we are justified to say that in our case prediction = educated guess. And this is necessary in order to escape randomness and make money. When you follow a trend, you actually predict that the trend will continue. Nothing wrong with that.
  • #418
  • Edited 4:04pm Apr 10, 2012 10:25am | Edited 4:04pm
Quoting micmic
I don't know why it is so often said that "you don't need to predict where the market will go in order to make money". You do need to predict it. Not with 100% accuracy, but with enough accuracy. This is included in the definition of "prediction":



You will notice that prediction does not equal conviction, and the words "anticipation" and "projection" are also present. So, we are justified to say that in our case prediction = educated guess. And this is necessary in order to escape randomness and make money. When you follow a...
I like your phrase, "educated guess". I think I mentioned something earlier about prediction having a built-in level of expectation of fulfillment that could be dangerous if the market does other than what was predicted.

I prefer the idea of letting the market show its bias, then just following that lead. Once the bias is shown, it then becomes a matter of just timing for entry.

Just discussing some ideas to help traders find their way to an emotionally safer place that would separate them from losses that could arise from being in an emotionally vulnerable state (hoping, expecting etc.) and feeling the need to jump ahead of PA before the market has played its hand so-to-speak.

Thanks Micmic,

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #419
  • Apr 12, 2012 3:43am Apr 12, 2012 3:43am
Quoting ha-pattern
Thanks for answering.
.
Agreed, except my personal preference is to find another reason in or near the original reason and so only need to wait a relatively few more candles on the same TF. Saves money per hour efficiency.

NO! As you say, a confused reason is a short-term bad trade that must be reconsidered in light of promise over the longer term.
But to accept that it is confused and stop the bad trade from continuing or happening, is a different animal. Immediate action is necessary, then.

I'd rather trust emotion, which partners with reason...
Hi Ha-Pattern,

Have had some hectic days. Will reply to this either today or tomorrow.

Thanks for your patience,

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #420
  • Apr 12, 2012 9:44pm Apr 12, 2012 9:44pm
Quoting FX4Newbies
Hi Ha-Pattern,

Have had some hectic days. Will reply to this either today or tomorrow.

Thanks for your patience,

FX4
No worries.

I think I was splitting hairs, anyway.

I keep hammering away at the psychology,
and yet a devastatingly bad trade still hits me often enough.
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