It's A Heart-Mind Game... Are You Ready?

I don't understand. Where does a "feeling" come from? What comes first: Emotion? Knowledge? What is knowledge? What is the cause of emotion?

Your idea of feeling leading to emotion isn't clear. Is "feeling" otherwise termed "knowledge one isn't confident in and/or sure how one came to have"? If so, it's easier to still term it knowledge.

Based on my observations, study and thought, emotions are a consequence of knowledge; knowledge is anything that one knows.

EDIT: I would subcategorise knowledge by how it was gained. EG. actively, passively, by inference. This will help you banish "feeling" from your vocab and thought: it isn't a helpful term. Passively gained knowledge, that is knowledge that one didn't intend to gain, could be otherwise termed subconscious knowledge: most of this is knowledge gained by experience and I think this is the root of your "feeling". Because this knowledge is passively gained, recollections can be misty and possibly erronous.

More people, traders especially, need to get to grips with the fact that to have any thought/feeling/anything there must be knowledge that leads to it. The term "feeling" suggests "inferior knowledge" to me: knowledge gained passively, vaguely remembered and possibly erroneous.

. Good job!!! Keep a level head and put the right pieces together as you go. What are the "right pieces"? The ones that work for you. Master the groundwork first...then the fancy footwork can come.

Congrats!!! A+ for sticking with your plan and trading within your level of skill and comfort zone. Protecting your emotional equity is critical to staying on top of your game. It's a heart-mind game you know .

FX4...

This may help answer your initial question until Ha-Pattern replies.

FX4...

I switched off at the word "intuition". I can't believe the writer of the article.

Not sure what else the writer is intending, but I thought they made some interesting points about feelings and emotions:

But if all emotions originate within the physical embodiment then where do feelings originate? Feelings do not originate from within the physical body nor do they originate from our bio-field and mind. Our feelings originate from our Entity--or that part of us not in this physical dimensional reality.

Our biological bodies need chemical reactions to function and they need electricity to have life. Emotions are chemical and feelings are electrical.We need both in order to be alive and function. That's what makes us bio-electro-chemical.

Lots to consider. Not trying to get into excessive detail here because there is a never-ending pool of information, but I'm sure Ha- can give you a succinct and very informative answer to the questions in your post.

FX4...

I'm an amateur psych junkie who googles and self-observes while demo'ing simulator, and I was writing from my own experience.
My primary objective is to connect gut intuition with trading, because early on, I noticed that while my body may be trained to recognize the chart pattern (that is, chart information that leads to a gut/body pattern (intuition) for when to trade, another part of me weighs that with other things happening and very often decides against using that pattern.

According to one source, " a feeling is the response part of the emotion ".
A science article supports my idea that a) gut intuition and feelings are connected and b) feelings are important.

It seems to me you wrote that you connect knowledge into emotion. I agree with you, in that an uninformed gut -- I'd rather say 'body', as often the sense is from there, even from another section of the body -- can misinform.
The difference in opinion -- that emotion is from knowledge, and feelings are inferior; and mine, that (right or wrong) knowledge informs feeling and then emotion -- may be due to how one perceives reality. VAK (visual-auditory-kinaesthetic) theory, or simply observing the bodily functions (may be of help) one uses as one makes decisions, could help you distinguish the source of thinking further.
My guess is that many people may have had to make decisions about where their bodies must go next or about what food they may eat, so their gut feelings are less informed, and the person uses a direct visual or auditory path as much or more to make decisions.

As for defining emotions, wikipedia has scores of approaches to that under the word. Also, I read somewhere that there are thousands of possible emotions (which the thread starter helped clarify in posts.)
A "feeling", on the other hand, I believe is a little easier to quantify, and is as good or bad as one pays attention to and feeds it.
In the model of emotion I made and like, a version of the market emotion cycle, the two are combined.
But because I'm more kinaesthetic in nature, at least while I trade, I pay more attention to the latter.

Thank you for the question; it helped clarify my own objective. I find that studying for trading also helps deal with all of one's life.

I know this topic has been discussed a month ago, but I think I have something more to contribute here.
Instead of doing a "subjective" technical analysis, it would be better to apply a moving average on your equity curve and just stop trading when your equity curve falls below the average and vice versa. I applied that recently to my backtests, and that works fantastically in reducing the drawdown.

cheers

Thanks Custos. I discussed this with my buddy who "polished up" the spreadsheet. It can be done, it will just take some time to program it that way. Not sure if it would be available.

Appreciate the update with your idea. Glad you like how it is working with your backtests.

Take care,

FX4

Thanks Ha-Pattern!!!

Didn't know this...My primary objective is to connect gut intuition with trading... Very glad I started the thread now .

Let's see where we go with this.

FX4

Last week was Harry Scaredy's first week of trading in his Demo Account using "his system". To get the earlier update on Harry, click here.

Now let's continue with Scene IV.

FX4

Harry calls Joe to give him the update on his first week of Demo Trading. He is pretty ecstatic. What he does not know is that it was Joe's first week of Live Trading. Let's get in on the conversation.

Joe and CautiousOne have just finished breakfast. They're expecting Harry to call any minute as he usually doesn't like calling before 9:00 on a Saturday morning.

It's 9:02 a.m. Ring-ring; Ring-ring; Ring-ring...


Joe: That must be Harry.

CautiousOne: You know this guy to a "T". Curious to hear what he's gonna say.

Joe: Hello...Wonderboys' residence.

Harry: Hey Joe, it's Harry.

Joe: (Under his breath)...It's him...with a wink at CautiousOne who is all ears from a short distance).

Joe: So what's up Harry, how was your week?

Harry: Pretty good overall. Is this a good time for us to chat?

Joe: I've got about 30 minutes before I have to head out to do some errands.

Harry: Cool! I've gotta tell you Joe, this thing is really amazing. Don't know if I told you, but before I started this week, I had made $139.00 just playing around. So, I decided to use it as a cushion: a little risk buffer. Not too familiar with using stops yet.

Joe: Don't recall you telling me but I think that was a great idea.

Harry: Well, let me tell you how my week went. I started off with some small positions just to get my feet wet. The first one was somethin'. I don't know if I got in at the slow time or what, but it was two hours of nothing. I got out of that with a pip profit.

Joe: Well you know what they say about small profits right? They're faaaaar better than a small loss, any day.

Harry: I'll agree with that. Now the next trade was at the open. Everything was there that I was looking for. I clicked...eventually, 'cause I was kinda scared as this was my "official start". That thing took off like a rocket! It was up 20 pips before I knew it. Thought I had better take my profits fast. Couldn't trade much more during the week though.

Joe: Great Harry? (Leaning over a bit so CautiousOne could hear the report.)

Harry: Now on my last trade yesterday, I got a little more adventurous.

Joe: You did? (beginning to wonder what's coming now...)

Harry: Yeah...I thought I'd increase my position size.

Joe: You did what?!...(beginning to sweat a bit as he turns away from CautiousOne)

Harry: Well, I didn't change my direction even though I saw some red candles. The thing went up again...got about 11 pips I think. That was on Aussie/Dollar. I'll shoot you an email with that winner. I have to tell ya Joe, this thing is everything you said it would be. Thanks a million buddy.

Joe: Glad you had a good start. Keep it up.

Harry: So how was your week Joe?

Joe: Well...it was my first week going Live. (figured he should start Live 'cause Harry's demoing now and he started earlier...time to move on a bit)

Harry: Hey...making the real bucks now, huh?

Joe: Well, I gave it my best. I tried. CautiousOne told me if I didn't make some profit...anything by end of the week, she would have a harder time really getting on board with this.

Harry: So Joe, did you make some money?

Joe: Yeah, I managed to make some. Will have to tell you more when I get back though. Glad your first week was a success. Gotta run. Will buzz you when I get in, okay?

Harry: Sounds good Joe. Be careful on the roads. Bye.

Joe gives CautiousOne a quick kiss before leaving and tells her that he'll fill her in when he gets back.


The attachment is the trade that Harry made his big bucks on that he sent to Joe. It is now framed and hanging on his wall.

Harry forgot to get Joe's email. He gives him a call again.


Ring-ring; Ring-ring; Ring-ring...

CautiousOne: Good Morning. Wonderboys' residence.

Harry: Hi CautiousOne, it's Harry. How are you?

CautiousOne: Hi Harry, just fine and you?

Harry: Just great. Did Joe leave already?

CautiousOne: Yeah. He just stepped out. Can I help you with something?

Harry: I just needed to get his email as I wanted to shoot over my big winner trade details.

CautiousOne: Hmm...think he got a new one recently. When he gets back I'll ask him to call you with it.

Harry: Fine, thanks. By the way, I meant to ask you the other day, did you go to BrokerBank High School? You just looked so familiar.

CautiousOne: No, that wasn't me. It was probably my twin sister, CourageousOne. She went there, then went on to BeatDealer College.

Harry: Okay, it makes sense now. Small world. Haven't seen her for a while.

CautiousOne: She should be coming to visit us next weekend. Joe wants to show her this Forex stuff. Would you like to come over?

Harry: Would love to! Thanks for the invite. Should I bring anything?

CautiousOne: No, nothing. We'll see you next week then. Joe should be back around lunchtime. I'll have him give you a call, okay?

Harry: Thanks CautiousOne. Bye.

Joe got back and just finished having lunch with CautiousOne. He filled her in on Harry's first week of trading. He's got the email handy, and is about to call Harry back. CautiousOne also mentions that she invited him to come over when CourageousOne comes by to visit next weekend.


Ring-ring; Ring-ring; Ring-ring...

Harry: Hi, it's Harry.

Joe: Hi Harry, it's Joe...just giving you a callback.

Harry: That's perfect timing. Just finished lunch.

Joe: Before I forget let me give you my new email. It's... [email protected]. Gotta have a vision of where you're trying to go. Know what I mean?

Harry: Sure do (looking at his framed trading result on the wall). Thanks Joe. I'll send it to you now.

Joe: Great!

Joe: Well Harry, you asked how my week went. It was a new experience for sure: no lie.

Harry: What do you mean Joe? I know you've been practising, right?

Joe: Yes I have, but nothing can prepare you for going Live man...nothing. My first trade...whew...my hand was sha-king so bad...and with CautiousOne standing there with her hand on my shoulder; that didn't help. Could feel her vibes. Anyway, I did manage to click and got about 3 pips.

Harry: That's $30.00 for how long, maybe five minutes...'cause you're scalpin' right? That's $360.00 an hour Joe! You just gave yourself a raise. (he's all smiles)

Joe: No, that was only $3.00...I'm starting with a mini-lot. Don't need to put myself through too much torture at one time. Might even go down to micro-lots if that feels better to me. Trying to minimize any stresses that could hamper my success.

Harry: I see your point. Torture? That's a little heavy-duty there for me. Stress sounds more manageable.

Joe: Now the next trade was a little easier but I was still so tense. I got into the trade, and was up again a few pips, then, in a flash they were gone. I held on and the minute it went back positive I was out...gone man, gone. Then, as soon as I was out, that thing took off like a rocket. I took some time to study that trade. Took a couple of days off then traded again on Thursday.

Harry: So how did Thursday go, any better? At least you're making and not losing.

Joe: Ye-ah. This time, I was a little better prepared 'cause I think I knew by then what fear of loss feels like...at least to me. Anyway, I saw what I thought was a good opportunity so I clicked. I bought Eur-Usd and was up 15 pips man, fif-teen... and then drama.

Harry: What happened? (sounding a bit baffled)

Joe: Well, I tried to close my trade like I showed you, and I got this message: "Invalid Prices".

Harry: What the heck!? How can the price be invalid. Aren't they the ones quoting it...to you?

Joe: Yes they are, or at least they're supposed to be.

Harry: So what did you do? (sitting upright in his chair)

Joe: I closed the message box and tried again. Then it said: "Requote". Not sure what that was all about, but by the time I did close, I had lost all of it. So for the week I got $1.00. At least CautiousOne can't yank me from the trading room now: I did make somethin'. Can't tell you how frustrated and angry I became during the whole ordeal. It brought out the other side of Joe I tell you. Through it all though, I think I came away with more than a dollar's worth of trading experience. This stuff ain't for the faint-hearted at all.

Harry: You're kidding me man. I have never gotten one of those...all week. Maybe it's your system. Glad you gained something from the experience though, but sheesh...it sounds like you were in a warzone Joe.

Joe: Felt like it. That was the first time I had that happen. Gotta find a way to make this work a little better. Next week's comin'. By the way, CautiousOne told me that she invited you over to see CourageousOne next weekend. Didn't realize that you knew her. I'm sure we'll have lots more to talk about then, you and I.

Harry: Maybe so...lots more. Who knows what this trading week will hold. Take care Joe and thanks for the call. Remember, a small gain is better than a small loss...any day.

Joe: Thanks Harry. See ya.

Harry: By the way, don't tell CourageousOne I'm comin' over Saturday. I want to surprise her.

Joe: Will do. Will also let CautiousOne know. Take care man and keep doin' what you're doin'.


Harry gets off the phone and begins to think about this business. He's eager to try this Live trading thing, but decides to wait a bit. He still doesn't believe it can happen to him. He thinks Joe made a mistake somewhere, and he's determined to find out what it is when he starts trading Live.

We'll catch up with them all again when CourageousOne is in town.

Here's a little something about emotions and feelings. Joe Wonderboy made an interesting statement:

This time, I was a little better prepared 'cause I think I knew by then what fear of loss feels like...at least to me.

Emotions (in this case "fear of loss"), which are strictly energy on their way to generating something in the body, are made aware to the individual via the experience of feelings. Without the feeling, you (the conscious you) wouldn't necessarily be aware of the fact that an emotion was engaged. These emotions are operational in varying degrees during Demo Trading depending on the person, but become more intense during Live Trading, because of the perception of the individual. I think the subconscious views real and perceived danger as just danger, and begins to go to work on it either way.

Emotions are a very important part of the body's make-up, and are very sensitive to and "aware" of the slightest change that may bypass the conscious mind. Once the conscious mind is aware, appropriate action can be taken. The subconscious mind (Subby) is "hoping" that the conscious mind will act in the best interest of the individual, and not in a harmful manner. A very young child has no conscious idea of what pain is, but if they touch fire, immediately they have learned something (conditioning has begun). With their experience came learning; with teaching (someone explaining the "why") they gain understanding. Learning without understanding is a very, very long and costly process. If wisdom has kicked in (which it should by then), they won't do it again. I want to define wisdom here as an individual's ability to mix the two together for themselves when faced with similar circumstances, so they can make sound decisions. If they didn't understand that "heat" was the cause of the pain, and not the fire, they could touch a hot iron or boiling water easily. Can wisdom be derived from another person's experiences? Absolutely!!! However, if they continue to repeat the same harmful behaviour again and again, the learning process will happen over and over. If they never learn (get it), something else is wrong. At what point does one determine that something else is wrong? Hard to say at the moment.

After a learning experience like the one described above, that specific "emotional-pain pathway" has been "opened". At the same time, there has also been "created", a corresponding feeling associated with that kind and level of pain (a specific emotional threshold corresponding to the level and impact of the stimulus). Kinda like when you download a document and it creates the folder automatically to put it in. That emotion has now been "activated" for use by the individual because some level of conditioning has been achieved. The potential for that process is already in the DNA so to speak. The conscious mind inputs the external stimulus into the nervous system/neural network, and Subby takes it from there.

There is a movie I like to suggest that every trader take a look at and internalize as much as possible. It is called K-19; The Widowmaker starring Harrison Ford and Liam Neeson. This movie is not about trading at all, BUT, if a trader views it with the market and its dynamics in mind from the very beginning, they can come away with so much understanding about this business and the mindset of a trader. It will be amazing!!! It exemplifies the difference between the heart-mind of a pro and that of a newbie/amateur. (Watching half of the movie, up to the part where they are playing on the ice should be enough, though there is more).

Might develop this idea some more later. We'll see. Think we've got alot going here already .

FX4

Does this taste salty to you? When cooking sometimes, a dish might taste like it has no salt, but you know you did add some. As you continue to add salt, it gets to a level where it brings out the flavour of the meal best without overpowering it. At that level, most people can enjoy it. However, if someone is cooking who has high blood pressure, they may put salt in excess of levels that most people can enjoy or tolerate; but to them, the food tastes just fine.

Now let's apply that train of thought to emotions and feelings. Feelings are like the "flavours" of our emotions. It's hard to adequately describe to someone what chocolate tastes like if they've never tasted it; but once they taste it, they've got it! It's like a picture painting a thousand words. We need all the benefits that emotions can give us so we can function in a holistic manner. We need emotion. Too much emotion though (like too much salt) equates to too much flavour and that can become a problem. In other words, a person can't trade at their best with "too much salt". Feelings can tell us when there is "too much salt" in the mix. Have you ever been so angry (and you knew you were so angry because of the level of the feelings that you had), that you couldn't concentrate at all, much less trade? That's part of the training Subby will have to go through in Dot 6, 'cause the market will provide a host of opportunities to trade with "too much salt" or not enough for that matter. Ask Joe what happened to him when he kept getting requotes. It really comes down to having a proper balance, and staying there.

Gotta run...time to cook .

FX4

Found a trailer for the movie K-19 The Widowmaker that I mentioned earlier. Many more K-19 videos available on YouTube. Hopefully you can view them in sequence so you get the impact of why I think the movie gives some good insights into how the mindset of a Pro differs from that of a Newbie/Amateur. This link should take you to other K-19 videos if you cannot get the DVD. Enjoy!!!

Opportunity knocks!!! Isn't it funny how life works? Subby just started getting ready for the make-over and word got out...somehow. Anyway, Subby got a call late on Friday. Someone heard about the make-over and would like to use Subby as a subject in some trader talent search "experiment" they'll be doing. The best part is this: if they like the results, Subby can be picked up by Mr. DoingWell Trader who is the sponsor of the talent search. Wow! Subby is so excited.

Subby decided to give it a try. On Monday there will be an initial meeting outlining the process. At that meeting, Subby will turn in the application, answer a few questions and take some tests during the initial interview. Those results will be evaluated while Subby completes a part of the process at home. When they meet for the second interview, if it all looks good, Subby could get to meet Mr. DoingWell Trader. If that meeting goes well, Subby's in. Hooray for Subby!!! If not, nothing was lost anyway...so it's all good.

The first Dot 6 meeting starts tomorrow.

FX4

The weekend meeting with CourageousOne has been set. She is scheduled to come in on Friday, so Joe can have some time to go over the basics of Forex with her before the luncheon on Saturday. Joe already called Harry to confirm the time. After lunch, they will have the rest of the afternoon to chat. Harry is eager and good to go.

Should be some deep discussions there for sure, especially after a second week of trading for both Joe and Harry.

Can't wait ,

FX4

To prepare for the meeting tomorrow, Subby started doing some research online for music or something...just to stay calm and focused. This information popped up again; this time it had more meaning than before. Treading cautiously here as this might be new stuff...but it looks like an option...a maybe, as Subby's not interested in hypnosis or any of that stuff. Would need to research that aspect a whole lot more.

What Is “Frequency Following Response?”

Frequency Following Response is helpful because it allows you to manipulate your brainwaves with brainwave entrainment technology in order to help you reach the state of awareness that you want to experience. If you want to relax, you can play some Alpha Brainwave Entrainment tones. If you want to have more energy, you can play some Beta Brainwave Entrainment frequencies.

If you’d like to have a nice deep session of meditation, you can entrain to Theta Brainwaves. The point is that you can reach whatever state of awareness you want with this entrainment technology. (SIDE NOTE: For more information about mental states you can entrain to, check out the Brainwave Frequency Chart Listing). You can entrain your brainwaves to help you: improve your focus, tap your inner creativity, go deeper into meditation, be more relaxed and less anxious, and even to help you overcome depression, anxiety, and attention-deficit problems.

FX4

Subby is up early after a good night's rest, going over the schedule for the day and making sure everything that is needed for the big meeting is in place. The application that came in late on Friday needs to be turned in by 9 a.m.; then the interview with Mr. MindOverMatter is about an hour later. During that meeting Subby will complete some tests and based on those results, get the acid-test assignment, which will probably come after lunch. Will be posting updates on Subby's Dot 6 meetings throughout the day.

FX4...