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It's A Heart-Mind Game... Are You Ready?

  • #261
  • Edited Feb 22, 2012 1:30pm Feb 21, 2012 10:22pm | Edited Feb 22, 2012 1:30pm
Just had a thought...

These imaginations that seem to crop up to "protect" the trader, usually don't kick in until a conscious decision has been made to trade, and the trader actually starts preparing to place the trade. Have you noticed that? Until then, the mind is "free" to think and process what the market is doing. Perhaps it would be a good idea for a trader to:

1. Be very careful when making an actual trading decision. Don't play mind games. Think things through carefully then make a firm decision.

2. Place the trade without hesitation when the decision is made to take the trade. Try to make the decision when the timing is "right" to enter.

3. Stop wondering/worrying about whether the entry was good or bad; right or wrong.

4. Switch mental-gears immediately and go into trade-management mode once in the trade.

5. Trade according to your method, and do so as emotion-free as possible. Your method should give you a way to exit or rescue if you were wrong.


It is important for a trader to trade when they see their edge, and not second-guess it. We might discuss that later on.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #262
  • Feb 22, 2012 9:03am Feb 22, 2012 9:03am
Information-gathering stage and critical decision phase, in other words:
Quoting FX4Newbies
These imaginations that seem to crop up to "protect" the trader usually don't kick in until a conscious decision has been made to trade, and the trader actually starts preparing to place the trade. .... the mind is "free" to think and process what the market is doing.
....
3. Stop wondering/worrying about whether the entry was good or bad; right or wrong.
.... as emotion-free as possible. Your method should give you a way to exit or rescue if you were wrong.
It is important for a trader to trade when they see their edge, and...
-
"as emotion-free as possible"
Nevertheless, to quantify and track one's current feelings and emotions seems a safe route. And, most people (1) can use emotions at least sometimes for decisionmaking.

An emotion is a directive built upon a feeling.
Feelings -- a gut or body pattern about the environs concerned in order to project from it -- often have a screen:

  1. Someone else's impression with their own distance, rank and attitude about you and thus the trade;
  2. a pivotal event in one's life whose ongoings transfer thought patterns into devising the current trade plan;
  3. a new, neutral third party that merely contributes material to adapt in one's trade;
    or, similarly, remix of one's current material ( or edge(drawing/indicator/fundies/time&sales)).

Emotion models, such as your 'courage' one or my simplified version (which naturally opposes "wondering/worrying" as hope and anxiety) of the market emotion cycle,
can then quantify any series of events emotions are included in and thus influence the outcome of.


Also, you were talking about learning and conditioning, in an earlier post. I found a useful link for that. (Also found a negative side to it.)

  • #263
  • Feb 22, 2012 9:14am Feb 22, 2012 9:14am
Quoting ha-pattern
Information-gathering stage and critical decision phase, in other words:
-
"as emotion-free as possible"
Nevertheless, to quantify and track one's current feelings and emotions seems a safe route. And, most people (1) can use emotions at least sometimes for decisionmaking.

An emotion is a directive built upon a feeling.
Feelings -- a gut or body pattern about the environs concerned in order to project from it -- often have a screen: [list][*]Someone else's impression...
As always, good stuff Ha-! Read through quickly. Will read again and comment later. Stalking Gbp-Usd at the moment.

Thanks.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #264
  • Edited 4:31pm Feb 22, 2012 10:01am | Edited 4:31pm
Quoting ha-pattern
Information-gathering stage and critical decision phase, in other words:
-
"as emotion-free as possible"
Nevertheless, to quantify and track one's current feelings and emotions seems a safe route. And, most people (1) can use emotions at least sometimes for decisionmaking.

An emotion is a directive built upon a feeling.
Feelings -- a gut or body pattern about the environs concerned in order to project from it -- often have a screen: [list][*]Someone else's impression...
Great link (1) on using emotions as part of the decision-making process. Everybody should read that article. Here's a short quote:

"There is a whole range of decision-making that uses emotion, depending on the degree of logic that is included in the process."

Here's another quote that should get us all thinking:

...The shocking conclusion is that the subconscious is in charge of the bus, and that we are living an illusion of conscious choice. As emotions also stem from the subconscious, then this makes it even more likely that decisions have a strong emotional influence.

"Quantifying" emotions seems a bit tougher, although that device I mentioned back on the subject of stress helps a trader to see a graphic representation of how where their emotional level is while trading.

Like this idea from your post...

An emotion is a directive built upon a feeling. Many ways to run with that thought I think. (Not sure that I've defined a "feeling" yet...maybe I should soon).

The screens that you mentioned are very powerful. Traders need to keep those in mind.

Thanks much for the links on conditioning and learning. Will check them out later. A Learning Theory Mind Map...Cool .

FX4

P.S. Closed the long Gbp-Usd that I was stalking when your post came in. Now it's taking off...again. Bye.
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #265
  • Edited Feb 23, 2012 1:39am Feb 22, 2012 5:19pm | Edited Feb 23, 2012 1:39am
Dot 4: "Okay, I've Made Up My Mind"...The "Mind Selection" Process.

In our connect the "heart-mind dots" we got to Dot 3 where the trader was still thinking...trying to decide. Finally they've made up "their mind"...but which one?

We've got at least two "minds" going: One mind saying, "I see a long. I'm going to buy..." and the other mind is saying, "The last time you bought this pair, it tanked." The first mind is being more logical, the second more emotional. What are some ways by which a trader can resolve this mental war?

1. The Hogtie Approach: Take control with the logical, conscious mind and force the emotional subconscious to go along with the program. That approach may work sometimes (and I have done it), but the emotional weight of the resistant subconscious could make it a little stressful. Ever heard the saying, "Convince a man against his will, and he is of the same opinion still?" Also, even if the trade were a winner, would the emotional subconscious be freed from the fear or pain of the last loser? Maybe not. So the next trade may be another mental battle.

2. The Win 'Em Over Approach: If the subconscious really is in control, 'cause every trader knows how many more emotional trades there have been versus logical ones, why not feed or help the emotional mind to do a better job. Here's what I mean. If when you're about to click "buy" and the imagination comes (probably from the subconscious) saying, "The last time you bought, price tanked...", maybe you can answer it with something like, "I know, but this time, everything is in place. No need to fear. It won't be a devastating loss if it goes wrong. It'll be okay." Now, if the conscious (logical) mind trades better, what do you think will happen to that imagination? I think, it will begin to take a back seat and relax. (If Joe Wonderboy's idea of helping Harry Scaredy works out as planned, I think CautiousOne will relax, don't you?). Just in case you're saying, "Joe Wonderwho?"...click here.

Here's the idea behind it: If the subconscious mind "feels" like it cannot trust the conscious mind to act in the best interest of both of them, these pop-ups might keep on coming. That will pose a continual stumbling block for the trader if it is not dealt with, because it will continue to make trading difficult and stressful.

So, which "mind" should a trader make up? Maybe the "weaker" one? But,the trader's got to know when the weaker one can handle it. I don't believe a trader can ever rise beyond the level of their weakest heart-mind link in the thought process...and stay at that level of success if they were able to. You might win a trade here or there, but in the long-run, if that weaker link is not dealt with, there's coming a meltdown someday when the logical mind makes an error. Why? Because the emotional mind will be there to pounce with all the pent up frustration of being beaten into subjection for all that time, and maybe really enter a sabotaging mode to destroy the program outright so it won't have to face that pain again. Strengthen the "weaker" one so both can benefit. If both benefit, the trader benefits!

If you haven't read this article, I suggest you do. Your subconscious mind might actually be the one "driving the bus", so it might be in your best interest to help it become the best bus driver it can be . Working with this approach as well.

On the side...I can't tell you how many times I have heard men say something like this, if there seems to be traffic or some road congestion that shouldn't be, "I'll bet you it's a woman driving that car that's causing these problems." (Yes, bust up laughin', 'cause you probably said it or thought it . Funny, I heard one guy say it, and I can't count how many cars he's wrecked). Any-way....Some men may not even feel comfortable if a woman is driving them and women generally have lower insurance rates. Hmm...(Now don't be hatin' guys, just trying to make a point about trading ).

Here's my point. It might be worth it to let your subconscious mind that has been trained to drive, get behind the wheel of your trading car. It must be trained because you don't want it driving down the road to sell out of fear, when your conscious mind is seeing a "buy" coming. Wouldn't that be a fun trading session? Some traders do let their subconscious mind trade you know. Many times the subconscious knows something the conscious doesn't.


3. If no selection is made, the debate will come around again. Only one person (or mind) can drive the trading car at one time. If two try at the same time, they might crash, unless there is harmony in heart-mind between them.

Tomorrow (maybe)...Dot 5. We'll see how it goes...

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #266
  • Feb 22, 2012 8:54pm Feb 22, 2012 8:54pm
Quoting FX4Newbies
Confidence isn't an illusion. It should be an expectation of a certain outcome based on either - or both - experience and reasoning.

In my reply to Auxesis, I addressed the idea about confidence being an illusion.

A Google search for "expectation" brought this up:

 

  1. A strong belief that something will happen or be the case in the future.
  2. A belief that someone will or should achieve something.

..."should" indicates obligation...

I don't expect to be victorious in argument in this thread. All I'll do is say the following:

You use, in your post, the words: "feeling", "expectation", "confidence in" and "belief". I'd like to know what observations of reality you have made to differentiate these concepts. As far as I am concerned, these are words are synonyms in this context.

I have a feeling price will not go lower than X.
I have an expectation price will not go lower than X.
I have confidence price will not go lower than X.
I have a belief price will not go lower than X.

My stance is as follows: for one to have any idea, about any thing, one must have used his senses to identify evidence for that idea. This evidence is the basis of action. Whether one decides to use any particular of the above words in irrelevant - essentially, evidence gave rise to an idea, that is all.

Moving specifically to trading: all one can do is observe, identify evidence which allows prediction of future price moves with a likelihood which one judges as profitable within the framework of one's method, and then execute one's plan. All the while, more evidence is gained either for or against ones idea and one's feelings/expectations/confidence/beliefs will change (either positively or negatively) in response to this.

Language is really messy. I prefer not to use the words "feeling" or "belief" because they don't popularly imply that the basis of one's idea is observed evidence in reality - expectation, on the other hand, does. If your feeling/expectation/confidence/belief isn't based on evidence which can be explicitly stated, you wont win in the long-term.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #267
  • Edited 11:19pm Feb 22, 2012 9:49pm | Edited 11:19pm
Quoting Leonlorenzo
I don't expect to be victorious in argument in this thread. All I'll do is say the following:

You use, in your post, the words: "feeling", "expectation", "confidence in" and "belief". I'd like to know what observations of reality you have made to differentiate these concepts. As far as I am concerned, these are words are synonyms in this context.

I have a feeling price will not go lower than X.
I have an expectation price will not go lower than X.
I have confidence price will not go lower than X.
I have a belief price will not go lower...
Hello Leonlorenzo,

The text in blue are quotes to make things easier to follow.


I'd like to know what observations of reality you have made to differentiate these concepts.

I think you already know that is not possible to make observations of reality of intangibles as these are. However, I have tried to quote definitions as explained by dictionaries etc. for the sake of clarity. Language can be messy if the terms being used are not clearly defined.


You use, in your post, the words: "feeling", "expectation", "confidence in" and "belief"....As far as I am concerned, these are words are synonyms in this context.

Fair enough. You have qualified how you would use these terms. I cannot agree that a feeling conveys the same meaning as a belief, though there is a connection between them. Each has a different kind of impact on the psyche and therefore a different behavioural outcome that needs to be addressed.


My stance is as follows: for one to have any idea, about any thing, one must have used his senses to identify evidence for that idea. This evidence is the basis of action.

Don't know if you saw this post, but maybe we agree here somewhat.


Moving specifically to trading: all one can do is observe, identify evidence which allows prediction of future price moves with a likelihood which one judges as profitable within the framework of one's method, and then execute one's plan. All the while, more evidence is gained either for or against ones idea and one's feelings/expectations/confidence/beliefs will change (either positively or negatively) in response to this.

True to an extent. However, in reality, once a prediction is made it is not so easy for a trader to change their actions for the reasons I outlined before. The change you mentioned doesn't just happen. Maybe it is not a problem for you.

Most people will require "evidence" as the basis for a prediction, though a prediction can be made without evidence. One can just make a statement about what one expects a future outcome to be. The market really doesn't give "evidence which allows for prediction", though traders seem to apply it in that manner. Future price action is not necessarily a direct result of past price action. Traders make those connections, but they may not necessarily be intended by the market. A prediction is not required to make money in the market. Risk management is. There are traders who can and do make money "on the wrong side" of the market.


I prefer not to use the words "feeling" or "belief" because they don't popularly imply that the basis of one's idea is observed evidence in reality - expectation, on the other hand, does.

Don't see how...an expectation is a belief that there will be an outcome or some event that has not yet happened.


I don't expect to be victorious in argument in this thread.

This thread is not for being victorious in argument. It is for discussion so traders can come away with something to help them be victorious in trading...and maybe have some fun doing it.

Thanks for your reply. I think the ideas you have shared are how most traders might be inclined to see it. Not too far off, but in my opinion, a little more fine-tuning and detail may be required to help traders troubleshoot what they are actually experiencing. If we disregard what is actually happening (the detail of it in the human experience), it doesn't make it (the human experience) or the end result a non-reality.

Take care,

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #268
  • Feb 22, 2012 11:30pm Feb 22, 2012 11:30pm
Quote
I'd like to know what observations of reality you have made to differentiate these concepts.

I think you already know that is not possible to make observations of reality of intangibles as these are. However, I have tried to quote definitions as explained by dictionaries etc. for the sake of clarity. Language can be messy if the terms being used are not clearly defined.


OK. I'll restate the phrase: observations you have made of your own conscious processes when looking at reality and concluding that you believe/expect/etc. IE. what is the difference in the conscious actions of feeling, expecting or believing something will happen. I hold that there is no difference in the nature of the process that the words refer to: it means "this is my understanding of an event". If there is any difference in the concepts, the difference is in the confidence the speaker has of that which they are saying. Maybe "I feel this will happen" means "I don't know whether or not to expect X to happen and have little or no evidence to expect it will, yet I can't keep my mouth shut and so will make arbitrary statements regardless".


Quote
As far as I am concerned, these are words are synonyms in this context.

Fair enough. You have qualified how you would use these terms. I cannot agree that a feeling conveys the same meaning as a belief, though there is a connection between them.


Please, proceed to define them for me.

Quote
My stance is as follows: for one to have any idea, about any thing, one must have used his senses to identify evidence for that idea. This evidence is the basis of action.

Don't know if you saw this post, but maybe we agree here somewhat.

I'm not sure.

Quote
Moving specifically to trading: all one can do is observe, identify evidence which allows prediction of future price moves with a likelihood which one judges as profitable within the framework of one's method, and then execute one's plan. All the while, more evidence is gained either for or against ones idea and one's feelings/expectations/confidence/beliefs will change (either positively or negatively) in response to this.

True to an extent. However, in reality, once a prediction...


If one doesn't adapt one's actions in response to new evidence, when one has an objective this requires, one is irrational. There's nothing more to this.

Stop being silly. There has to be evidence in some form otherwise we are all wasting our time. You're using the concept "evidence" in a seemingly narrow sense. "Evidence" in the widest sense is "a fact of reality which leads to a conclusion".

Quote
I prefer not to use the words "feeling" or "belief" because they don't popularly imply that the basis of one's idea is observed evidence in reality - expectation, on the other hand, does.

Don't see how...an expectation is a belief that there will be an outcome or some event that has not yet happened.

You've used a contextual synonym as part of your definition of the word; that's a cognitively useless practise. You could swap the places of "expectation" and "belief" and still be saying the same - incorrect - thing.
I would define "expectation" as "to think a thing will occur": notice that "to think" and "to expect" are not interchangeable.
Living the adventure in my head.
  • #269
  • Edited Feb 23, 2012 2:05am Feb 22, 2012 11:50pm | Edited Feb 23, 2012 2:05am
Quoting Leonlorenzo


OK. I'll restate the phrase: ....what is the difference in the conscious actions of feeling, expecting or believing something will happen

What you're missing here Leonlorenzo is how these, each one in varying degrees, affect or skew incoming information...evidence as you call it. Not to mention their effects on how different people process these states. I think most people would agree that the state of "belief" is stronger than the state of "a feeling" as it relates to decision-making. Can a decision be made on a feeling? Sure, but it can also be changed on a feeling too: hence the term "quality decision". To me, the state of believing is a more conclusive state.


I hold that there is no difference in the nature of the process that the words refer to...

I don't know why you hold to that. Some are also processed in different parts of the brain.


Please, proceed to define them for me.

I have already defined them, with the exception of "feeling' which will come in due time.


If one doesn't adapt one's actions in response to new evidence, when one has an objective this requires, one is irrational. There's nothing more to this.

Agreed!!!! That is an excellent example of irrational behaviour.


Stop being silly. There has to be evidence in some form otherwise we are all wasting our time. You're using the concept "evidence" in a seemingly narrow sense. "Evidence" in the widest sense is "a fact of reality which leads to a conclusion".

A fact...A thing that is indisputably the case. I assure you, the market does not generate facts for use as evidence.

Evidence for what? To predict? Here is a definition of evidence:

The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. Now how does "true" relate to the market? It doesn't. The market is not providing any evidence, because it is not trying to validate anything. The market just is. Traders are making their own "evidence" out of past data (facts). And when the market invalidates the "evidence", which by definition, is supposed to be indicating or validating truth...does it then cease to be "evidence"? If it is evidence, it is evidence. "Oh, I just thought it was evidence..." I see a state of confusion brewing here...

In time you'll see...


You've used a contextual synonym as part of your definition of the word; that's a cognitively useless practise. You could swap the places of "expectation" and "belief" and still be saying the same - incorrect - thing.
I would define "expectation" as "to think a thing will occur": notice that "to think" and "to expect" are not interchangeable.

Not necessarily, if you stick to the meaning of the words individually and not lump them together as being the same then meaning can be derived.

The reason they could not be swapped and say the same thing is because one is a subset of the other. A belief is not an expectation, but an expectation is a belief that is related to future outcomes.

If you continue to define terms in the English language as they seem best to you, you will find yourself being inconsistent at one point or another.


Anyway, I think we have made our points about trading here...which I think was the goal. This is becoming a discourse on synonyms. One point I will make is this: If all of these words are the same in meaning, then only one is necessary. However, the language that we use has made subtle shades of meaning that I believe are credible and relevant to clearer understanding, which is what I am after for traders.

All the best,

FX4

P.S. This can be continued best via PM or email. Thanks.
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #270
  • Edited 3:14pm Feb 23, 2012 11:38am | Edited 3:14pm
In preparation for the next step in the Connect The Heart-Mind Dot Series, I just wanted to make this point.

There is only one thing that a trader should be afraid of. Outside of mechanical failure or any other technical difficulties, a trader should be afraid of just one thing. Leonlorenzo made this point yesterday (which was mentioned earlier):

If a trader doesn't adapt their actions in response to changing market behaviour, when it becomes necessary to do so in order to achieve their trading goal, then that trader is irrational.

Irrational behaviour for "normal people" does not usually come from the conscious mind. If it did, that individual would be in an institution, or on serious medications. Irrational (emotional) behaviour is, for the most part, an act of the subconscious...our emotional side. The only thing a trader should fear is themselves...the part of them that can cause the most harm.

If the subconscious is the area of a trader's weakest link, then it needs help to bring it in line with a more rational way of "thinking" and "behaving". I believe once a trader has a good system and can succeed there, trading will become easier and much more profitable.

Now, on to Dot 5.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #271
  • Edited Feb 24, 2012 2:45am Feb 23, 2012 12:26pm | Edited Feb 24, 2012 2:45am
Dot 5: "I'm getting Subby ready to drive."...The Subconscious Make-Over.

This is where I think traders need to get the victory first before any major breakthroughs in their equity curve can take place. So now, what is the subconscious?

Earlier in the thread we discussed the fact that information coming into the neural network would be filtered. The reason? The conscious mind can only process so much information fast enough, so that we can make decisions to function on a daily basis. What happens to all of the other information that our senses pick up? It seems to be stored in the subconscious: another faculty of the human mind. It is believed that the subconscious mind also occupies the same neural network as the conscious mind. Not to be confused with the "unconscious mind", which per Freud, has to do with repressed traumatic memories etc. This area he supposed, could be reached using hypnosis. Not what we are talking about here.

An important function of the subconscious is to enable us to perform learned behaviours almost without input from the conscious mind. This has the benefit of freeing up the conscious mind for more immediate tasks at hand that require "active", conscious thought, logic etc. In other words it functions automatically...without thinking or "passive thinking". Among other things,it is also responsible for the emotional responses we have that just seem to "be there" at given times.

Don't know how many of you took the Chakra Test. Here is where you can find the link for the test and other important information. A chakra is an energy centre and is connected to the neural network. It is thought that these chakras are responsible for certain aspects of our subcoscious behaviour. Of the 200,000+ people worldwide who took the test, two chakras in particular came up the weakest: The Solar Plexus Chakra and The Root Chakra. Remember our discussion yesterday about the weakest link in your trading?

When someone is learning to drive, they must have some obvious things in place: eyesight, working limbs, hand-eye coordinating skills etc. If not, driving is a no-go! Some skills are needed for successful trading as well. Can't get around it because everything you are as a person is involved when trading. No short cuts . Something as simple as exercise can do so much good.

In the next post, we''ll discuss the importance of balancing these chakras. Your subconscious make-over starts there.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #272
  • Edited Feb 24, 2012 1:52am Feb 23, 2012 12:46pm | Edited Feb 24, 2012 1:52am
Here are some key points about the Solar Plexus Chakra and The Root Chakra.

According to About.com...

The Solar Plexus Chakra:

Purposes: Mental understanding of emotional life.

Mental and Emotional Issues: Self-esteem, fear of rejection, oversensitivity to criticism, self-image fears, fears of our secrets being found out, indecisiveness.

Information Stored Inside The Solar Plexus Chakra: Personal power, personality, consciousness of self within the universe (sense of belonging), knowing.

The Solar Plexus Chakra is associated with the color yellow. This is the area which defines our "self-esteem". The personality that develops during puberty is housed in this chakra....otherwise known as the "EGO". Anyone experiencing dysfunction of the third chakra is having difficulty obtaining or maintaining his/her own "personal power". This intuitive chakra is where we get our "gut instincts" that signal us to do or not to do something. Strong self-esteem is a required for developing intuitive skills.

Now do you think traders need strong self-esteem and personal power? I'd say...yeah. If not, the market might have you coming and going like a rag doll in the mouth of a puppy.

The Solar Plexus area is also known as the Second Brain. Here is what Marghi Merzenich had to say about it:

What makes the “second brain” unique from other parts of the peripheral nervous system, though, is that it can function even without input from the central nervous system, and sends many more messages to the central nervous system than it receives. And while it’s not a center of conscious thought, it has widespread influence on our physical bodies and our emotional well-being. This may have implications for how we treat emotional problems like depression.


Again from About.com...

The Root Chakra

Purposes: Kinesthetic feelings, movement

Mental and Emotional Issues: Survival, self-esteem, social order, security, family

Information Stored Inside Root Chakra: Familial beliefs, superstitions, loyalty, instincts, physical pleasure or pain, touch

The Base or Root Chakra is associated with the color red. This chakra is the grounding force that allows us to connect to the earth energies and empower our beings. Focusing one's attention on the color of a cherry popsicle or a juicy red apple can help bring our energetic body "down to earth" and in alignment with our physical body when we find ourselves energetically fleeting or in other words....."spacing off."


Now, how important do think it would be for a trader to get the items in bold resolved? Remember, thee two chakras are the weakest worldwide of those who took the test. Any wonder 90+% of traders fail. Hopefully, once we get the subconscious make-over done, that percentage can be reduced. Hope you'll be in that number.

FX4
Attached Image
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #273
  • Edited Feb 24, 2012 2:33am Feb 23, 2012 12:55pm | Edited Feb 24, 2012 2:33am
So what is your conscious role in the make-over of your subconscious mind? First I think it would be to work on balancing your chakras and energy flows. Many simple ways have already been given. Now here is a key to get your subconscious to work for you. Program it like you would your GPS. Map out the course in detail that you would like it to follow.

The subconscious is programmed by repetition. It does not really "learn" by the use of logic.

When I first learned to drive, I had an instructor who showed me the ropes. He was there first to teach, then guide until I passed my test. Then it was my driving everyday that reinforced the habit of driving. I remember my very first day driving the family home during rush hour traffic. My father sat in the back seat as he did not want to be influencing me too much. There were times he made comments because he could see, based on his years of driving, that had he not, there could have been a problem. We could liken him to our subconscious mind...sitting somewhere in the background, with lots of information and experience, but still in control of so much. My driving instructor would be like the conscious mind. He sat in the front seat, sometimes with his hand on the emergency brake when we did the "hill test".

Let me just say here, that the subconscious has ego-defense mechanisms that may need to be disarmed. You know that heart-mind security system you may have turned on? Here are a few features of your deluxe model that could be in the way: Denial, rationalization, suppression, dissociation, fantasy and humour.

Some practical suggestions for programming the subconscious "trading mind" coming in Dot 6...hopefully tomorrow; if not Monday... GW.

Hope you're enjoying connecting your dots .

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #274
  • Feb 23, 2012 3:15pm Feb 23, 2012 3:15pm
Quoting FX4Newbies
So what is your conscious role in the make-over of your subconscious mind? First I think it would be to work on balancing your chakras and energy flows. Many simple ways have already been given. Now here is a key to get your subconscious to work for you. Program it like you would your GPS. Map out the course you would like it to follow in detail.

The subconscious is programmed by repetition. It does not really "learn" by the use of logic.

When I first learned to drive, I had an instructor who showed me the ropes. He was there...
Great posts.

Just saw a contradiction that may be enlightening.

Your metaphor is at once about two high-risk ventures and about polar opposites in terms of real risk at any one moment.

A driving teacher's motivation is for you to not hit you with a car later. Driving is made to be automatic under any mood the driver is in. Everybody's on the same page (the driver's manual), and feed off others' driving style positively and naturally. Like most activities, you're 'in the chart' activity, and relatively safely so.
Trading, you're likely alone and in an adversarial position. There is no roadmap except the one you make up. Nobody tells you exactly how to trade -- You're just thrown into the ring with basic instructions that may never work. So, everybody's on a different page (one's trading method), and feed off others' trading style by taking their money.
  • #275
  • Edited Feb 24, 2012 5:30am Feb 23, 2012 3:48pm | Edited Feb 24, 2012 5:30am
Quoting ha-pattern
Great posts.

Just saw a contradiction that may be enlightening.

Your metaphor is at once about two high-risk ventures and about polar opposites in terms of real risk at any one moment.

A driving teacher's motivation is for you to not hit you with a car later. Driving is made to be automatic under any mood the driver is in. Everybody's on the same page (the driver's manual), and feed off others' driving style positively and naturally. Like most activities, you're 'in the chart' activity, and relatively safely so.
Trading, you're likely alone...
The purpose of the metaphor was just to make comparisons regarding the heart-mind processes that are involved in both: learning to drive and learning to trade: both using the subconscious, which most traders aren't comfortable doing. Thanks for making the point though.

My responses below might seem like they are a little on the devil's advocate side. Not trying to be contrary...think you'll see my point at the end.


Trading, you're likely alone and in an adversarial position.

Yes, the trader will likely be alone while learning, unless someone teaches/coaches/mentors them. With the internet, most traders want to/think they can do it alone, because of all the free stuff out there...but they don't have to. Most successful traders had someone. A new driver would be alone, or at least sometimes, after they pass the test. But, why would trading likely be or need to be an adversarial situation? In light of our discussions, who is the real adversary? The market's just doing its thing.


Driving is made to be automatic under any mood the driver is in.

True. How possible do you think that can become for a trader? Possible at all? Probable? Might depend on the trader.


There is no roadmap except the one you make up.

True. I thought people liked making up their own driving rules. Ever seen a driver make a complete stop at a corner behind the white line? And then again, most traders don't even follow their own rules: the ones they make. Not sure they'll follow a roadmap if they were given one. Heaven help us.


You're just thrown into the ring with basic instructions that may never work. So, everybody's on a different page...

Maybe...but 90+ % of traders lose....a different page but the same book? Also, drivers who do follow the rules get run over too, so rules don't work their either...but I get your point. Thrown into the ring? I thought traders came on their own, eager to make a fortune because they heard of people making it work.

Again, not trying to be contrary, just trying to highlight some things we may take for granted in other everyday situations but make a bigger deal when it comes to trading, given the fact that our focus is on the dramas of trading...and there are many. Won't deny you that.

Also want to introduce this possibility... trading is unique, but, we do other things well using the same human resources to do them. Can't we just see trading as another something or other that we do well, and take the bite out of it some? See what I mean? How have we really been conditioned to think? It's just trading.

Quoting auxesis

If one can last long enough in these markets they will find that it doesn't matter what tool is used, the brain will start to process the information, the markets slowing down, it's coiling, it's breaking out, it's reversing, it's a fake..... that is if we allow our brains to function. Reliance on the indicator isn't the answer, in time you must learn to rely on yourself. Most don't get there, it's too easy to try to tweak the formula and ignore the inescapable truth that the answer isn't in the chart, it's in that faint reflection we see on the monitor screen when we really look close, that of our self.

regards.
FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #276
  • Edited 7:09am Feb 24, 2012 5:42am | Edited 7:09am
Just had a thought...

Was about to jump back in a long on EU. Had closed a few moments earlier as price reached my resistance "target". Could still see a little potential to go some more and was about to click when I had the thought (and it didn't come from my conscious mind), "Are you sure you want to get in there?" 'Cause by the time the market added the spread and the slippage, my "buy" could be the resistance price.

Wondering if Mr. and Mrs. Common Sense and "Mother Wit" live in the subconscious on Consistently Profitable Street. If so, we need to trade with them on our side for sure 'cause price did go a few pips higher then started selling off a bit. Better yet, a trader needs to move in on the same street and make friends with them. Don't know what the market will do, but I don't think it was the time to be coming to the party with a long...and a Doji on M5, and at a potential resistance area (per my trading method).

FX4

P.S. I didn't get back in . Better than a few more pips in my pocket is having a clear heart-mind to see what the market is doing now, as having an open position could "colour" my perception.
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #277
  • Feb 24, 2012 5:54am Feb 24, 2012 5:54am
Quoting FX4Newbies
Just had a thought...

Was about to jump back in a long on EU. Had closed a few moments earlier as price reached my resistance "target". FX4
FX4, First of all thanks for the thread, it is my current read while waiting for trade oppertunities. I love threads like this, they open up so many perspectives I would have never thought of myself.
Anyhow, thought I should make my first addition to it, as I too just had the exact same dilema as you, G.U last hour candle i hit my TP and thought to myself, price action seems like it has more, should i re-enter?
I decided not to be greedy and stay out, the price rose 2 more pips then fell 20 before the next candle open!
Not being greedy certainly paid off this time!
Rob
  • #278
  • Edited 6:53am Feb 24, 2012 6:12am | Edited 6:53am
Quoting robthorp
FX4, First of all thanks for the thread, it is my current read while waiting for trade oppertunities. I love threads like this, they open up so many perspectives I would have never thought of myself.
Anyhow, thought I should make my first addition to it, as I too just had the exact same dilema as you, G.U last hour candle i hit my TP and thought to myself, price action seems like it has more, should i re-enter?
I decided not to be greedy and stay out, the price rose 2 more pips then fell 20 before the next candle open!
Not being greedy certainly...
Yes Robthorp. You are so right. I thought about greed after making the last post and said to myself...I'd better watch that. It's kinda like going back for seconds. You've had enough to eat but just want a little more...that's greed.

Glad you're getting something out of the thread. I think if we can change the way we think about this...sensibly of course...and make appropriate adjustments, we should get different results. I know we're not insane, right?

The dinosaur image I posted earlier bears that out.

Glad you weren't greedy. Now, thinking on my feet would have alerted me to maybe think "sell" or at least look for one...but I had to step away.

US news later. Hope we're not in for a rugged ride 'til then.

Thanks for sharing.

FX4

P.S. Funny how that worked...don't think we're using the same trading method.

P.P.S. I wonder if "short squeezes" and "long squeezes" are how the market slaughters pigs and catches greedy traders.
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #279
  • Edited Feb 25, 2012 5:45am Feb 24, 2012 7:58am | Edited Feb 25, 2012 5:45am
Robthorp,

Did you clear your emotional cache and go long again on GU? If you did, any specific thought processes you went through to get back in? Had noticed that price moved up some...

Missed my short entry for a few pips. Still stalking. May not touch 'til after news. Noticed something with news sometimes that might help other traders:

The market will keep suggesting "buys" and "sells" as it trades in a range before the news hits to get buyers and sellers lining up on either side...with their stops of course. But here's the thing...it will keep trading between that range: buy orders (at the bottom) and sell orders (at the top) so that neither one is profitable. Ever been there waiting for your order to just go to + pips so you can bail, and you get 1 pip or maybe a piece of one, and it goes negative again? Since most traders are afraid to take the loss and are in hope mode by then, the market has them deadlocked, conditioned etc. Then, when the news hits...the fade comes, then the real move. The market can make money on both sides if one thinks about it.

Want to watch that action from the sidelines.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #280
  • Feb 24, 2012 8:16am Feb 24, 2012 8:16am
FX4, Yeah definatley, Im still very new to trading, although I spend almost all day 5 days a week studying and trying to improve, At the moment im trying not to go down the same route as most newbies, I want to do it the right way, straight from the start.
And as this thread mentions that is just as much about controlling my emotions, not to be greedy and stay level headed, as it is to do with my method of trading.

Quoting FX4Newbies
Robthorp,

Did you clear your emotional cache and go long again on GU? If you did, any specific thought processes you went through to get back in?
No re-entry for me, I tried to stick with the plan, my current system states I should only take the trade 1-2 bars after my indicator signal, this crossed this morning, so although i may miss a few pips this afternoon, I am getting a reward at the end of the day knowing I stuck to my system and controlled my emotions.
As I grow as a trader and become more discretionary im sure I can look at situations like this in a different light, but for now Im trying to master the ground work
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