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Greece 2012

  • #41
  • Jan 22, 2012 6:37pm Jan 22, 2012 6:37pm
"If you borrow €50,000 from the bank and you can only pay back €25,000, you might make a deal with the bank and they might forgive the other €25,000 .... "


In that case you don't have a default and you can get an other loan from the bank
  • #42
  • Jan 22, 2012 6:40pm Jan 22, 2012 6:40pm
it is still a default

you fail to meet obligations outlined by the contract of the loan= default

which leads to settlements= haircuts

it is just an orderly default as opposed to simply not paying, which is considered worse than negotiating an orderly default.

both are defaults, bankruptcy is different.
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #43
  • Edited 7:07pm Jan 22, 2012 6:56pm | Edited 7:07pm
Quoting the redlion
it is still a default

you fail to meet obligations outlined by the contract of the loan= default

which leads to settlements= haircuts

it is just an orderly default as opposed to simply not paying, which is considered worse than negotiating an orderly default.

both are defaults, bankruptcy is different.
1. case: default
You have fail to meet obligations.

2. case: haircut (PSI)
You have change the obligations.

Technically speaking there is a very big big deference between haircut and default.


Where did you here about Archimedes quote? :0
(Δος μοι που στω και κινω την γην. — give me where to stand and I will move the Earth.)
  • #44
  • Jan 22, 2012 10:57pm Jan 22, 2012 10:57pm
EU will help Greece surely)
very nice, good price..!
  • #45
  • Jan 22, 2012 11:00pm Jan 22, 2012 11:00pm
Quoting Jose Louis
EU will help Greece surely)
...to exit
The Market pays you to be disciplined
  • #46
  • Jan 22, 2012 11:32pm Jan 22, 2012 11:32pm
there is no way in reality) or EU or noone. for Europe is important to save the country! it is already so small
very nice, good price..!
  • #47
  • Jan 23, 2012 1:29am Jan 23, 2012 1:29am
Quoting ststgr
1. case: default
You have fail to meet obligations.

2. case: haircut (PSI)
You have change the obligations.

Technically speaking there is a very big big deference between haircut and default.


Where did you here about Archimedes quote? :0
(Δος μοι που στω και κινω την γην. — give me where to stand and I will move the Earth.)
I like ancient greek civilization, and history. I have a great talent for languages as well, these two quotes go well with my personality the Classical Greek and the Latin quotes

I think you are talking about technicalities to be honest, the current negotiations regarding the hair cuts would not even exists if Greece was actually capable of meeting obligations....it is still a default in my book ask the holders of Greek paper
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #48
  • Jan 23, 2012 3:31am Jan 23, 2012 3:31am
Quoting ststgr
1. case: default
You have fail to meet obligations.

2. case: haircut (PSI)
You have change the obligations.

Technically speaking there is a very big big deference between haircut and default.


Where did you here about Archimedes quote? :0
(Δος μοι που στω και κινω την γην. — give me where to stand and I will move the Earth.)
Okay, let's play with words. Granted that a haircut is not a default because they are two different words.
So now we ask "why have a haircut?"
Answer: "Because Greece cannot meet it's obligations to the contract" = "Default"
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it
  • #49
  • Edited 10:49am Jan 23, 2012 4:56am | Edited 10:49am
Quoting PipTrapper
Answer: "Because Greece cannot meet it's obligations to the contract" = "Default"
I think I answer that above

Because Greece cannot meet it's obligations to the contract = (EU) change the obligation -> haircut

Thats technically the case.

Politically you can say that we have a Greek default from 2010.
But this will not change the EUR price (And this forum is about trading, not politics).
Lets not forget that no one will ask the small investors.
And if you ask them, This is a DEFAULT.
Lets not forget that no one will ask the Greek citizens who pay a loan that didn't get
And if you ask them, This is a DEFAULT.

And politically I'm with you 110%.

But I think the moment we have a decision about the PSI, the EUR will go up.

And I think there is no point to ask about about a haircut in a pol.
They already have decide about the haircut.
The default is a good question.
And beside the PSI the Greek gov has to take the f..ing meters we hear from 2010.
If the gov fails to that. Then we are talking about a big default (The mother of the defaults).
  • #50
  • Jan 26, 2012 11:32pm Jan 26, 2012 11:32pm
http://www.economist.com/blogs/schum...uary-23rd-2012
here is the info about todays economical situation in Greece
  • #51
  • Feb 3, 2012 7:59am Feb 3, 2012 7:59am
Eurogroup won’t meet Monday

Written by Jamie Coleman
February 3, 2012 at 13:51 GMT

Maybe later next week.
Suggests to me they don’t have anything to meet about on Monday because a Greek deal is not going to get done over the weekend.
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it
  • #52
  • Feb 3, 2012 8:05am Feb 3, 2012 8:05am
Hmm, and coincidentally, Papademos says he will resign on Monday if a deal doesn't get done with the three internal parties.

Sounds like a deal on the table but Greek politicians are blocking it.

They've got the weekend to mull it over - rock vs hard place.
  • #53
  • Feb 3, 2012 8:08am Feb 3, 2012 8:08am
Quoting triphop
Hmm, and coincidentally, Papademos says he will resign on Monday if a deal doesn't get done with the three internal parties.

Sounds like a deal on the table but Greek politicians are blocking it.

They've got the weekend to mull it over - rock vs hard place.
...and now

Dutch PM: Don’t want to write-down our loans to Greece

Written by Jamie Coleman
February 3, 2012 at 13:58 GMT

Wow. That notion never entered my mind at this stage. Later, sure…Adding more fuel to the euro-negative fire.
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it
  • #54
  • Feb 10, 2012 1:36am Feb 10, 2012 1:36am
To anyone who has not yet voted in the poll, the last chance will be February 28th at 7:36am GMT

Get your vote in now before it's too late.
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it
  • #55
  • Feb 10, 2012 1:54am Feb 10, 2012 1:54am
Quoting PipTrapper
To anyone who has not yet voted in the poll, the last chance will be February 28th at 7:36am GMT

Get your vote in now before it's too late.
Still slightly confused about the use of the D word... Would the haircut now under question be included as a default? Or are you just talking about a disorderly default?
Kill the ego, or it will kill the mission.
  • #56
  • Feb 10, 2012 2:12am Feb 10, 2012 2:12am
Quoting AaronWard
Still slightly confused about the use of the D word... Would the haircut now under question be included as a default? Or are you just talking about a disorderly default?
If the rating agencies call it a default, then it is a default.
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it
  • #57
  • Feb 10, 2012 9:24am Feb 10, 2012 9:24am
Quoting PipTrapper
If the rating agencies call it a default, then it is a default.
Hmmmm....
Kill the ego, or it will kill the mission.
  • #58
  • Feb 10, 2012 10:55am Feb 10, 2012 10:55am
Quoting PipTrapper
If the rating agencies call it a default, then it is a default.
Well I replied to your poll but I think you refer, as Aaron pointed out to if there is going to be a disorderly default.

Technically Greece is defaulted, the question is how the process will carry on. Until today I would say there are considerable chances of Greece failing to meet the next march debt repayment deadline (and therefore a official disorderly default will take place in April [2nd Q 2012]).

However, even a new bailout with the haircuts included is default by default. There is not such a concept of half or partial-bankruptcy. Politicians can name it whatever they want after but that is default here on in Mars and the rating agencies will make it clear as soon as their clients clear all the books on their hedges.

sisse
Pending conversations? PM for a chat...I am mainly in OTM now
  • #59
  • Feb 11, 2012 2:26am Feb 11, 2012 2:26am
Quoting sisse
(and therefore a official disorderly default will take place in April [2nd Q 2012]).
If I am not mistaken, the 14.5 Billion Euro payment to creditors is due on the 20th of March 2012 (Q1) and not in April (Q2). Perhaps there is a grace period I am not aware of?

As for the technical definition of a default, that has been a contentious argument in this thread. So instead of coming up with a definition myself, I leave it to the rating agencies to decide what constitutes a default.
Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it
  • #60
  • Feb 11, 2012 3:56am Feb 11, 2012 3:56am
I just saw the Argentina vs. Greece comparison on the news page - it's like deja vu - and the worst thing is it's always the people who pay the bills in the end - not their leaders. 20% unemployment, wages plunging, economy shrinking ...

But there's something we can do to help Greece - one sip and one bite at a time - let's up our intake of Metaxa cocktails, Feta cheese and Baklavas!!! I'm serious!!! They're all good stuff!
forget about tomorrow, just steal away into the night
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