It's A Heart-Mind Game... Are You Ready? | Page 8 | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

When do you know you ready to go from demo to real trading? 61 replies

Trading: A Mind Game 15 replies

When and how do you know you are ready to invest real money? 61 replies

Relaxing the heart and mind while trading 12 replies

Trading is a mind game - by Forex Mind Games 2 replies

Attachments: It's A Heart-Mind Game... Are You Ready?
Exit Attachments

It's A Heart-Mind Game... Are You Ready?

  • #141
  • Feb 4, 2012 6:01pm Feb 4, 2012 6:01pm
Quoting ha-pattern
Hmm. Sometimes I imply more than I mean.
And no, I wouldn't want to say something like that, unless I found a decently-done scientific study that connected a price chart with how the majority of its traders felt about the news or whatever, with maybe inclusion of losing traders and some measure of their behavior at the time.
One thing I do know, that's way over my head.

The idea of frustration discussed earlier in the thread, that one still seems alright from personal experience. And the other emotion stuff, the pictures exchange, got...
Thanks for clarifying. I was all ears. Thought you might have had some details on something like that. I do agree...that kind of "evidence" would take a very unique approach...over my head too.

You are right. You did say range...and other technicals would be necessary.

I've heard some say that they can see the panic (fear) in the chart when matched with a news event. That I think is understandable: a candle with a long shadow for example. Would make trading easier if the market would give a heads-up message, preferable audibly, when it was getting ready to go into some emotional mode: greed, fear, hope, revenge etc. Increased volatility is sometimes a sign of an emotional market. A good tell, from my observation, occurs when the market does something "suddenly" to run some stops then take off in the opposite direction. I think it is in the market's interest to get us traders emotionally involved so it can have a better chance at controlling its desired outcomes.

...the pictures exchange, got some useful stuff also. Pictures exchange?


Thanks again for being a part of the mind-stretching process.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #142
  • Feb 4, 2012 7:27pm Feb 4, 2012 7:27pm
Concerning psychiatric help when it comes to trading..

An interesting story relayed to me from a trader who was a clinical psychologist. He had a client that would come see him once a month to discuss goals trading habits etc. Things were on a positive note. He just wanted a "mental checkup".

What intrigued me is one of his goals. He wanted to know what it feels like to give away a billion dollars. This was a literal goal. I don't know if it has been achieved. But think of the concept...First he had to earn a billion dollars.

So as a result of this conversation I had with with this individual a few years ago, one of my goals is to see what it feels like to give away a million dollars.

The point of the rambling here is that if a trader found the right psychologist it could be an eye opener. Someone who can honestly help set goals and give a mental checkup.
Illegitimi non carborundum - Noli pati a scelestis opprimi.
  • #143
  • Edited Feb 5, 2012 7:00am Feb 4, 2012 8:28pm | Edited Feb 5, 2012 7:00am
Quoting Rufus
Concerning psychiatric help when it comes to trading..

An interesting story relayed to me from a trader who was a clinical psychologist. He had a client that would come see him once a month to discuss goals trading habits etc. Things were on a positive note. He just wanted a "mental checkup".

What intrigued me is one of his goals. He wanted to know what it feels like to give away a billion dollars. This was a literal goal. I don't know if it has been achieved. But think of the concept...First he had to earn a billion dollars.

So as a result...
Thanks for that Rufus. Do you know of any good psychologists for traders or a good place to start looking? Know of published ones, but I am sure there are good ones who are not published authors. Also, any thoughts on sessions by phone with a therapist?

Question: How can a trader know if they might need to find a psychologist to help them in their trading? Any telling signs apart from what one might consider a "normal" trader's learning curve? What does a "normal" trader's learning curve look like anyway? Heard about the 10,000 hours, but is there a flow chart with a time-scale somewhere? I know each trader is unique, but having a middle-of-the-road guideline might come in handy.

On the side...

Just in case a reader wants to know the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist here is some info...basically one is an MD the other is not.

Thanks for the post and the thought provoker.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #144
  • Edited Feb 6, 2012 4:39am Feb 5, 2012 7:06pm | Edited Feb 6, 2012 4:39am
Well traders,

We had some thought-provoking discussions over the weekend. Thanks guys .

Prior to that, the topic of discussion was about Conditioning and Habit. This week I want to touch on Reinforcements and maybe something on Mental Perception. All this is leading up to what the game is all about in this business. Yes, trading FX is a business, but the trader who plays the game portion of it better, wins at the business portion of it.

All the best this week,

FX4

P.S. @ Rufus and Ha-Pattern...please feel free to still reply to any weekend discussion.
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #145
  • Edited 11:54am Feb 6, 2012 5:26am | Edited 11:54am
Is the way you have been conditioned to trade being cemented in your heart-mind? If you have not yet read the post on Conditioning and Habit, here is the link: http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...=335152&page=9...Post 133.

Now, let's say that a trader managed to start off on the right foot. They got a good system to work with and understand that trading is about probabilities. They also follow their rules and have had some degree of success thus far, so their Courage-Confidence loop is in tact. What also helps to cement what they are doing is the positive reinforcement that occurs every time they take profit. It actually motivates them to repeat the behaviour and deepens the conditioning...and of course, we know that repetition makes the habit "stick". Let me ask you a question...if you have had some losing trades, do you feel like trading or do you just want to go away somewhere or forget it all for a bit? I'd venture to say most traders would want to get away from it...and probably won't be too happy at that moment. Motivation has to do with a person having the desire and willingness to do something. The greater the number of positive (or desired) outcomes, the greater the desire and willingness to repeat the positive behaviour. Reinforcement theory then, as developed by Skinner, is related to what motivates behaviour. But why focus on motivation? It is a contributing factor behind repetitive behaviours. It is not an easy task for us to do something we don't feel good about doing. (This concept about doing what we feel good about will come in handy in the next part of this discussion).

In Positive Reinforcement, something that the participant wants is received as a consequence of their actions. That "something" we can call a reward. In Negative Reinforcement, something that the participant does not want is removed to encourage positive behaviour. Have you ever been at a job where if you were late three times for the month, you get some negative mark against you, BUT, it will be removed from your record if you complete the rest of the month with no more tardies? That is an example of using negative reinforcement to motivate a person to perform in a preferred manner; i.e. positive behaviours. So in trading, taking a profit acts as a positive reinforcement, and taking a small loss (if it is a percentage of your equity that is no biggie for you emotionally), can be seen as a form of negative reinforcement. It is the removal of a corrective measure for "bad behaviour": namely, going against the market. Taking the loss preserves your emotional equity (your confidence, self-worth, motivation etc.) and keeps you in control because you took it...it wasn't handed to you by the market (margin call) or an emotional pain-threshold. You know that "ouch" stop-loss level...or the "Oh-my-gosh!!!" one ? We've all been there at some point, some far too often than others, or too often for your account to thrive, let alone survive. (If you use a stop loss and you don't agonize over it, then you took it too).

Now, what about the flip-side...when traders don't or won't take profit and let a winner become a loser, or when they don't or won't cut losses: and bleeding ones at that?! What's going on there? Hmm...

That's coming up in the discussion next...
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #146
  • Feb 6, 2012 9:53am Feb 6, 2012 9:53am
Since we are on conditioning and habit. My favorite poem on the topic

I am your constant companion;
I am your greatest helper or your heaviest burden.
I will push you onward or drag you down to failure.
I am at your command.

Half of the tasks that you do you might just as well
Turn over to me and I will do them quickly and correctly.

I am easily managed; you must merely be firm with me.
Show me exactly how you want something done.
After a few lessons, I will do it automatically.

I am the servant of all great people
and the regret of all failures as well.
Those who are great, I have made great.
Those who are failures, I have made failures.

I am not a machine but I will work with all its precision
Plus the intelligence of a person.

Now you may run me for profit or you may run me for ruin.
It makes no difference to me.
Take me, train me, be firm with me and
I will lay the world at your feet.
Be easy with me and I will destroy you.

I am called Habit!
Illegitimi non carborundum - Noli pati a scelestis opprimi.
  • #147
  • Edited Feb 7, 2012 12:14am Feb 6, 2012 12:02pm | Edited Feb 7, 2012 12:14am
Quoting Rufus
Since we are on conditioning and habit. My favorite poem on the topic

I am your constant companion;
I am your greatest helper or your heaviest burden.
I will push you onward or drag you down to failure.
I am at your command.

Half of the tasks that you do you might just as well
Turn over to me and I will do them quickly and correctly.

I am easily managed; you must merely be firm with me.
Show me exactly how you want something done.
After a few lessons, I will do it automatically.

I am the servant of all great people
and the regret...
Thank you Rufus!!! I think every trader should memorize that. At least they could post it in their trading room and read it aloud daily.

Good lookin' out.



FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #148
  • Edited Feb 7, 2012 2:57am Feb 6, 2012 12:32pm | Edited Feb 7, 2012 2:57am
Not Taking Profit? Letting Losers Bleed? Huh?!! Uh huh...yep. That's how 90+% of traders who trade to make money end up losing: plain and simple.

Made some points earlier about how positive and negative reinforcements work to motivate a person to perform better or in a preferred manner. But, there is a flip-side which is: when a trader lets a winner become a loser, or lets a loser bleed. Either of those two scenarios will work against what the trader says they want...to make money. So what's really going on here?

Well, apart from the reinforcement methods discussed earlier, there is another way to get compliance: to introduce an undesired consequence (or remove a desired "reward", called extinction) because of an undesired behaviour. That is called PUNISHMENT. Wow!!! Getting deep now.

Punishment is an attempt to motivate a person to reduce the incidence of or to stop an undesired behaviour completely. In trading, the reward or desired consequence is money...an increasing account balance. If a trader is punished, then an undesired consequence is introduced. Usually, punishment is not pleasant or enjoyable, so some degree of pain (an emotion) is involved. Taking the loss (stop loss idea here) should not be painful IF a trader has accepted the risks that come with trading. Pain's message is: something is wrong. A bleeding account is painful, and should be.

Now, who's actually doing the punishing? It's not the market. The market is really only using positive or negative reinforcements to help the trader align their behaviour to what is desired to receive the reward: market knows best...market is always right. The trader is the one causing their own pain. Now that's a problem. Most sane people would not consciously cause themselves pain; and deliberately so. There is no need for a trader to punish themselves because no trade is ever a guarantee: it's a probability. If it doesn't work, move on to the next. So, in my humble opinion, a trader who has been at it for a few years, with a decent system, should consider working with a psychologist to get to the bottom of some issues...if they are consistently in that category of not taking profits or letting losers bleed.

There is a worksheet in Post 122 for a self-help "solution" to self-destructive behaviours. The "worksheet" link is in the post itself. Might not be a bad place to start.

The market really is your friend. It will tell you the truth even when it hurts. It just likes to play games too so you don't get bored, greedy, overconfident or lazy, or remain fearful or full of false hope .

Hope this will help some traders to get beyond this crippling issue.

Of course comments are always welcomed.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #149
  • Edited Feb 7, 2012 12:22am Feb 6, 2012 1:07pm | Edited Feb 7, 2012 12:22am
This came to mind...Gotta read the previous post: "Not Taking Profit? Letting Losers Bleed? Huh?!!" to get the message.

(No More Pain)...No More Drama
Song by Mary J. Blige

To view the YouTube video, click here.

Lyrics:

So tired, tired of this drama
No more, no more
I wanna be free
I'm so tired, so tired

Broken heart again
Another lesson learned
Better know your friends
Or else you will get burned
Gotta count on me
Cause I can guarantee
That I'll be fine

No more pain (no more pain)
No more pain (no more pain)
No drama (no more drama in my life)
No one's gonna make me hurt again

Why'd I play the fool
Go through ups and downs
Knowing all the time
You wouldn't be around
Or maybe I like the stress
Cause I was young and restless
But that was long ago
I don't wanna cry no more

No more pain (no more pain)
No more game (no more game messin' with my mind)
No drama (no more drama in my life)
No one's gonna make me hurt again
No more tears (no more tears, I'm tired of cryin' every night)
No more fears (no more fears, I really don't wanna cry)
No drama (no more drama in my life)
I don't ever wanna hurt again
Wanna speak my mind, wanna speak my mind

Uh, it feel so good
When you let go
Of all the drama in your life
Now you're free from all the pain
Free from all the game
Free from all the stress
So find your happiness
I don't know
Only God knows where the story ends for me
But I know where the story begins
It's up to us to choose
Whether we win or lose
And I choose to win

No more pain (no more pain)
No more game (tired of your playin' game with my mind)
No drama (no more drama in my life)
No more, no more, No more, no more
No more tears (no more tears, no more cryin' every night)
No more fears (no more waking be up in the morning)
No drama, no more in my life

No more drama, no more drama
No more drama, no more drama
NO MORE DRAMA
NO MORE DRAMA
NO MORE DRAMA
NO MORE DRAMA
NO MORE DRAMA
No more drama in my life
So tired, tired of this drama

To view the YouTube video, click here.

EDIT: If you can't "guarantee" that you'll be fine by doing what is necessary to take care of you in your trading, don't expect the market to do it for you. More on that next...
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #150
  • Edited 6:40am Feb 7, 2012 1:08am | Edited 6:40am
Just want to interject this thought about trading FX...

The FX market is really a network of banks trading, hence the term "interbank". It's BIG business. Some years ago, things changed and now retail traders can participate...but, in what? That interbank market? Hardly. Is your minimum order a million dollars? Not sure what the exact dollar amount would be, but you get the point.

In many cases your retail FX broker/dealer is also your market maker. That means your order doesn't get into the real interbank market. Your market maker takes the other side of your trade. So, if your market maker is the broker/dealer where you have your account, and the dealer (who fills your order) works for the broker (or in some cases a bank), and his job is to protect the broker's book or else...how do you think you rank in priority with them to help you win? Not higher than them for sure. They want to make it as easy as possible for you to get in the "market" so they can get paid. But, if you trade well and smart, you can get paid too .

This is how they see it. You have decided to step into an arena where sharks and whales live: big players who are pros at what they do. They have the advantage. They can see your stops and have alot of information about your trades and account status. If you want to trade in a way that makes you their lunch, they'll chew you up and say, "Thank you". If you want to make it in this business for real, adopt the mindset of a professional and trade like one.

Trading is a zero-sum game (business). The players on the other side of your trade are in business to make money. You should be too.

FX4

P.S. Not sure what the next topic would be...but we'll see.
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #151
  • Feb 7, 2012 7:17am Feb 7, 2012 7:17am
Don't know how many more traders like this are out there, but this is the real world.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #152
  • Feb 7, 2012 8:41am Feb 7, 2012 8:41am
Quoting FX4Newbies
Not Taking Profit? Letting Losers Bleed? Huh?!! Uh huh...yep. That's how 90+% of traders who trade to make money end up losing: plain and simple.

Made some points earlier about how positive and negative reinforcements work to motivate a person to perform better or in a preferred manner. But, there is a flip-side which is: when a trader lets a winner become a loser, or lets a loser bleed. Either of those two scenarios will work against what the trader says they want...to make money. So what's really going on here?

Well, apart...
That's a nice underlying explanation:
When someone trains , the market is conditioning them to know when and where to trade from their chart (etc.)

On the other side of the coin to this conditioning is addiction --
In addiction, a (would-be) trader takes the chart and reinterprets it into their own language, so that they 'own' it and then can make what they want of it. They see the pain of possible punishment, dissociate to get their own view, etc.

An umbrella to these two are what these two modify:
The self;
more specifically, person's effort, from self, to interpret the chart into a satisfactory plan.

My guess is that basic needs,
emotions and gut intuition to get those needs,
and a sense of control from thinking about and then acting to have those needs and more fulfilled,
make up the variables to be and fulfill over time the self.
  • #153
  • Edited 11:23pm Feb 7, 2012 2:59pm | Edited 11:23pm
Quoting ha-pattern
That's a nice underlying explanation:
When someone trains , the market is conditioning them to know when and where to trade from their chart (etc.)

On the other side of the coin to this conditioning is addiction --
In addiction, a (would-be) trader takes the chart and reinterprets it into their own language, so that they 'own' it and then can make what they want of it. They see the pain of possible punishment, dissociate to get their own view, etc.

An umbrella to these two are what these two modify:
The self;
more specifically, person's effort,...
I agree Ha-Pattern that when a person trades, the chart via their particular method of analysis is conditioning them regarding the criteria to enter and exit the trade. I think their analysis or approach may be the vehicle by which the "addiction" process that you mentioned takes root. Because of it, the person may feel entitled to put "their label" on it: hence the ownership that you mentioned. Your use of the term "addiction" is interesting, as so many times traders cling to their chart-idea even when price action has gone the other way. Definitely some "self" could be involved there. Once they own it (the idea), then they want to control it and price action too. At that point a trader might even start thinking "for price" and telling price what it should do: "When price gets here, I will..."...without waiting to see what price is really doing if/when it gets there. I guess if price could speak, it might say, "How arrogant Mr. Trader!". We all know where that would go in a live situation: the market will be having the last one....

RE: Disassociating from the possibility of the pain/punishment...it is easy then for a trader to escape to "their" chart...like going to a trusted friend who won't tell them the truth for fear of hurting their feelings.

Self-preservation is probably in the mix for sure. Punishment vs addiction (for the sake of protection)...Hmm. I have heard it said that people who have had problems with addictions should not trade. You bring up some other good points about "basic needs", control, emotions etc. Might go to Marslow next then come back to the topic of mental perception. Who knows...so much good stuff out there to pull together. Hope traders are getting something from all this.

Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion and taking the time to post.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #154
  • Feb 7, 2012 11:48pm Feb 7, 2012 11:48pm
Quoting FX4Newbies
Hope traders are getting something from all this.

Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion and taking the time to post.

FX4
I am getting something from all this. Have not had much time to post as of late but I read it every day...Thanks
Illegitimi non carborundum - Noli pati a scelestis opprimi.
  • #155
  • Feb 8, 2012 12:33am Feb 8, 2012 12:33am
Quoting Rufus
I am getting something from all this. Have not had much time to post as of late but I read it every day...Thanks
Glad you are getting something from all this..so am I . Trying to put a nail in the coffin for traders on some of these heart-mind issues. I hope viewers are taking the time to read through the earlier posts as well. When a trader gets to the point where they have everything they need to succeed, and all that is left is for them to optimize their human trading resource in order to soar, the breakthrough there (with the heart-mind connection) becomes paramount.

Thanks for the time taken to post.

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #156
  • Edited 4:00pm Feb 8, 2012 1:05am | Edited 4:00pm
In an earlier post (Post 145), we discussed some ways in which traders can be motivated from the outside using reinforcements: by the market, an employer etc. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs sheds some light on what motivates us from within. Here is an article to start the ball rolling. Wikipedia was also a good read...not too overwhelming. Please take the time to read, understand and apply to yourself. What is YOUR hierarchy of needs?

Now comes the emotional staircase: Make an itemized list of your needs and try to be crystal clear when you list the ones that are on the emotional-mental side. This is what I mean by crystal clear: try not to just use generalized categories or classifications of needs. For example, instead of saying, "I want people to respect me...", be more specific by saying, "I like for people to allow me to speak and not cut me off. I feel disrespected when they don't." Try to bring yourself as close to the actual event as you can, that triggers the emotion that you may be tempted to generalize that you want to address. Get to the nitty gritty.

Here's a trading example: Instead of just saying, "I don't like it when I lose money." [Top of the staircase]...try something like this to find out WHY: "I hate it when I have spent an hour analyzing a chart, and when the trade comes, I lose 10 pips. I feel like I am wasting my time." [Step 1]. Now, why don't you like feeling that you're wasting your time? "Well, because it makes me feel useless and stupid." [Step 2]. And what does feeling useless and stupid do to you? "It makes me feel like I am not worth much" [Step 3]. Ah ha...now that's the real reason; and that's what you should be after. If you can deal with your feelings of worth, the other steps should get better also. That's just an example.

If you can picture a staircase (looking at it from the side), and there is a ball bouncing down from one step to the next; when it gets to the bottom, it just rolls off somewhere until all of the built-up energy is exhausted. You might need to bounce your emotions down YOUR "emotional staircase" until you hit the spot in your heart-mind that leaves you in a deeper area of thought and introspection...where you are really hearing and listening to you. You'll know because it will strike a chord with you that you didn't know was there. It will resonate deep within. If you can get to the bottom line emotion, the root, then you can put some thoughts and actions in place to "nip it in the bud"...or at least come close .

FX4
Attached Image
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #157
  • Feb 8, 2012 6:18am Feb 8, 2012 6:18am
Hi, notes on yours.



"'addiction'.... Because of it, the person may feel entitled to put "their label" on it: hence the ownership that you mentioned. "
-- confused; no, wait, I get it. This can work both ways -- using a label in defense, to retain position and thus continue the addiction. Anyways....
"Your use of the term "addiction" is interesting, as so many times traders cling to their chart-idea even when price action has gone the other way."
-- agreed, inspired. Explained more....


"Definitely some "self" could be involved there. Once they own it (the idea), then they want to control it and price action too. At that point a trader might even start thinking "for price" and telling price what it should do..."
"When price gets here, I will..."...without waiting to see what price is really doing if/when it gets there. I guess if price could speak, it might say, "How arrogant Mr. Trader!". We all know where that would go in a live situation: the market will be having the last one. "
-- Yes, and there's a parallel to your further notes on this: Experienced would-be traders do something similar. They may know the answer to a trade, only not trade it due to extraneous opinions about them in their own life. Insecurities underlie their trading, also,
about how much their contributions: Technical studies that further that field, showing good trading attitudes when winning consistently. Of course, the former may easily exist, the latter rarely.


"Punishment vs addiction (for the sake of protection)...Hmm. I have heard it said that people who have had problems with addictions should not trade."
-- Yeah, I rushed that idea. The connection I make between conditioning (of which punishment is involved) and addiction,
is that both manipulate the environs to get someone else to do something for you. Only, in addiction, the manipulation is overt and shared (thus sanctioning attacks, as in Milgram) in conditioning and hidden and alone (thus leveraged for good, as in Sherlock Holmes ( ; ) ) ) in addiction.
The central focus for me was that you condition yourself in the market to respond correctly to a certain thread of information from the market
At the same time:
(1) "The tell-tale sign of trading addiction is a trader who cannot refrain from trading--even when markets are objectively offering no opportunity."
Only, what is objectivity in trading, except a guess at the future?
So an inner challenge is created through addiction, to better one's edge. If it's at the sacrifice of one's profit, then self-acceptance of one's limitations is necessary.


"You bring up some other good points about "basic needs", control, emotions etc. Might go to Marslow next then come back to the topic of mental perception."
-- No, dropped that notion, in my amateur's way, about eight years ago -- Too vague, when there's lots of comparably good ideas. Aristotle's stuff is similar.
'Mental perception', yes, that's all about trading. 'Needs' and how emotions etc. shape it, that's to me more of a perspective about 'needs' and not needs itself.
For others, this way may be fine. Needs cuts to the chase fast. While there's much perspective from what you present, I prefer body / medical-test psychology, for its potential: Greater positive impact and lower side effects. Thus, I guessed at homeostatic stuff, such as pain, food/water, and fatigue.


I appreciate the post (and this thread).
  • #158
  • Edited 12:26pm Feb 8, 2012 7:29am | Edited 12:26pm
Quoting ha-pattern
Hi, notes on yours.


"'addiction'.... Because of it, the person may feel entitled to put "their label" on it: hence the ownership that you mentioned. "
-- confused; no, wait, I get it. This can work both ways -- using a label in defense, to retain position and thus continue the addiction. Anyways....
"Your use of the term "addiction" is interesting, as so many times traders cling to their chart-idea even when price action has gone the other way."
-- agreed, inspired. Explained more....


"Definitely...
Just some good stuff Ha-Pattern. Now here are my thoughts (blue are responses):


"'addiction'.... Because of it, the person may feel entitled to put "their label" on it: hence the ownership that you mentioned. "
-- confused; no, wait, I get it. This can work both ways

Was there another element to your view on "addiction" that I missed?


"Definitely some "self" could be involved there. Once they own it (the idea), then they want to control it and price action too. At that point a trader might even start thinking "for price" and telling price what it should do..."
"When price gets here, I will..."...without waiting to see what price is really doing if/when it gets there. I guess if price could speak, it might say, "How arrogant Mr. Trader!". We all know where that would go in a live situation: the market will be having the last one. "
-- Yes, and there's a parallel to your further notes on this: Experienced would-be traders do something similar. They may know the answer to a trade, only not trade it due to extraneous opinions about them in their own life. Insecurities underlie their trading, also,
about how much their contributions: Technical studies that further that field, showing good trading attitudes when winning consistently. Of course, the former may easily exist, the latter rarely.

Experienced would-be traders...interesting category. Are they in the bunch just before consistently profitable?

To the section in bold: Yes and yes a hundred times!!!

Regarding the part in red...are you referring to studies done on the attitudes of traders? Please clarify the statement in red...a little unclear about how to take it.


...is that both manipulate the environs to get someone else to do something for you. This was in reference to Punishment and Addiction.

Now that is something a trader might not see as being part of the mix AT ALL!!! Worth spending some time on that if it applies to the trader.


No, dropped that notion, in my amateur's way, about eight years ago -- Too vague, when there's lots of comparably good ideas. Aristotle's stuff is similar.
'Mental perception', yes, that's all about trading. 'Needs' and how emotions etc. shape it, that's to me more of a perspective about 'needs' and not needs itself.
For others, this way may be fine. Needs cuts to the chase fast. While there's much perspective from what you present, I prefer body / medical-test psychology, for its potential: Greater positive impact and lower side effects. Thus, I guessed at homeostatic stuff, such as pain, food/water, and fatigue.

I think I will go with the 'mental perception' next. Thanks for mentioning Aristotle and the medical-test psychology. Will review them.


By the way, you mentioned some interesting categories of traders like the amateur (beginner?) and the experienced would-be trader. Apart from the generic terms: Newbie, Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced versions...seems like you have some categories that better define the qualities or characteristics of the trader? Any more? .

Will read through your thoughts here again carefully. Very insightful these discussions...lovin' them. I hope some traders are beginning to appreciate what really goes into trading to win.

Many thanks,

FX4
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
  • #159
  • Edited 9:16am Feb 8, 2012 7:58am | Edited 9:16am
[QUOTE FX4Newbies;5366529]
"'addiction'.... Because of it, the person may feel entitled to put "their label" on it: hence the ownership that you mentioned. "
-- confused; no, wait, I get it. This can work both ways

Was there another element to your view on "addiction" that I missed?
[color=Red]also,
about how much their contributions: Technical studies that further that field,
Regarding the part in red...are you referring to studies done on the attitudes of traders? Please clarify the statement in red...a little unclear about how to take it.

...is that both manipulate the environs to get someone else to do something for you. This was in reference to Punishment and Addiction.

Now that is something a trader might not see as being part of the mix AT ALL!!! Worth spending some time on that if it applies to the trader. categories .... Any more? ; ).[endQUOTE]


Hmm, 'label' could connect with 'contributions' easily. The specific contribution, that of furthering technical studies, is often perceived as a personal variety equal to others and that programs are the only true better.
Generally, I agree; however, discretionarily-made technical studies often feed improved ways into ea's. Plus, one creating either may publish and share, enabling aware others in position to use them in other fields that would more likely do good than trading. Maybe it's just wish fulfillment, an ego thing, of my own.

On twists and turns in the mind, especially as to relating to ordinary social life, one could imagine conditioning and addiction as having a large impact on trading. The human condition is often imaginary, as compared to what is objectively true: One compares how one relates to others, as the typical casing one puts one's rational thoughts within. The rational thoughts is what one ultimately wants to trade with; only, with such an easily-reacted-to environs such as what trading provides, the casing of one's own life can be or feel safer than, say, losing a whole bunch of money in less than a minute, several times in a row after depositing. It can even inspire, as reason can only be a product of that which it responds to, and emotion or imagined scene to emote from, a way to reframe for better trading.
Doesn't make it okay, such a habit added on; it can turn reflexive, so preparations to deal with its presence may be necessary for some (if not most).

On categories:
Yeah, just threw in a category that included a more-rare extreme. Yours fits most.
  • #160
  • Edited 5:37pm Feb 8, 2012 8:14am | Edited 5:37pm
Quoting ha-pattern
On twists and turns in the mind, especially as to relating to ordinary social life, one could imagine conditioning and addiction as having a large impact on trading. The human condition is often imaginary, as compared to what is objectively true: One compares how one relates to others, as the typical casing one puts one's rational thoughts within. The rational thoughts is what one ultimately wants to trade with; only, with such an easily-reacted-to environs such as what trading provides, the casing of one's own life can be or feel safer than,...
Statement in bold in the quote above...trade only with rational thoughts!!! I think if a trader can do that, with a good system they should be on their way to consistent profits, as "emotional thoughts" lead to emotional actions which are usually costly. However, that casing which is used to hold those thoughts can be a major obstacle as you have already mentioned. The idea of a membrane comes to mind...specially made with certain attributes to facilitate the "ins"and "outs" of a cell's contents. Another thought...that of an inhibitor...attaching itself to the membrane or casing which would control what is actually transported across it. I think going into filters next...perception etc. would be a smooth transition.

For the benefit of viewers..per Wikipedia:

In philosophy, rationality is the exercise of reason. It is the manner in which people derive conclusions when considering things deliberately. It refers to the conformity of one's beliefs with one's reasons to believe, or with one's actions with one's reasons for action. However, the term "rationality" tends to be used differently in different disciplines, including specialized discussions of economics, sociology, psychology and political science. A rational decision is one that is not just reasoned, but is also optimal for achieving a goal or solving a problem.

Things are beginning to heat up here .

FX4

P.S. Will post a reply later about discretionary technical studies etc.
Trade what you see, not what you think or feel. Let the market come to you.
0 traders viewing now