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Tobin Tax Effect on Forex

  • #61
  • Jan 12, 2012 8:39am Jan 12, 2012 8:39am
with UK and Japan against it, we get to live....but its only a matter of time before all spot forex bucketshops are run out of town....the futures guys will win the war.
wo-yoy! wo-yoy! wo-yoy! wo-yoi! wo-yoy-yoy-yoy!
  • #62
  • Jan 12, 2012 8:40am Jan 12, 2012 8:40am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)
  • #63
  • Jan 12, 2012 8:49am Jan 12, 2012 8:49am
Cheers triphog. So what will happen to EUR/USD and other EUR pairs. Will spreads widen and liquidity fall etc etc which would be a sure consequence if this was a co-operative move globally. Why would the German and French banks not just move operations to UK or any other nation that does not implement the tax. As you say, it will not last long if it is implemented, but a couple of years is a long time and then we have the recovery period before everything gets back to normal.
  • #64
  • Jan 12, 2012 9:30am Jan 12, 2012 9:30am
i dont think we lost our time, learning and trading. Weather we would buy/ sell currencies , futures or options ...is still the same thing, almost. I would only be worried, if they somehow forbid electronic trading ...
However, this is not directly against speculators ..but it is about collecting taxes, and other revenues provided by different exchanges. Markets rose tremendously in the last 10 year( look at BIS figure),and still are. This is where government wants their hand involved.
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  • #65
  • Jan 12, 2012 11:24am Jan 12, 2012 11:24am
[quote=Agro;5288740] If this tax is implemented it will mean the last 10 years of my life have been a complete and utter waste of time.

Common bro, there´s much more to life than trading....keep your head up....
I´m worried too...but life´s still awsome in so many ways...

Interseting what some guys mentioned about the Mafia....how abot the Vatican...thought they were mighty too....
In Germany the Catholic Church is the biggest property owner (and they are not selling either)..please no offense meant to any Catholic person...really...it´s just interesting numbers....
And there´s a tax if you are Catholic too...???!!!

Anyway, it´s about Tobin right?...the problem is it´s been sold as the solution to the Euro crisis...talking about the Holy Grail....
Holy Tobin...

SOLUTION: make a million fast, before the tax hits...and then go on holiday...
  • #66
  • Jan 12, 2012 11:37am Jan 12, 2012 11:37am
unless world implements it completely, i doubt there will be much problem

secondly you really underestimate the ingenuity of the people, they will always find a way around these type of taxes or restrictions. until there is one option left!
  • #67
  • Jan 12, 2012 3:37pm Jan 12, 2012 3:37pm
Quoting pemully
with UK and Japan against it, we get to live....but its only a matter of time before all spot forex bucketshops are run out of town....the futures guys will win the war.
Quoting markot
i dont think we lost our time, learning and trading. Weather we would buy/ sell currencies , futures or options ...is still the same thing, almost. I would only be worried, if they somehow forbid electronic trading ...
However, this is not directly against speculators ..but it is about collecting taxes, and other revenues provided by different exchanges. Markets rose tremendously in the last 10 year( look at BIS figure),and still are. This is where government wants their hand involved.
You're both absolutely right. These skills are not lost, I've studied futures and options extensively, and yes there are some differences but your skills will transfer very nicely. The trick is to be flexible, that's what this world is all about.


Quoting Agro

So how likely is it that this tax is implemented successfully? As people have said, it will not work if it is not a global co-operative move. How likely is that? (These are questions for anyone that really knows about this stuff, not statements).

As I understand it if it is not a global move then banks will just move their opperations to the nations not implementing this tax right?
Yes, if it's not global, it can't work, as everyone will just move. There are almost always ways around things.

For instance, I live in Germany, if they pass the law and make it illegal to trade in foreign countries, I may be able to get through a loop hole by registering at my parent's home of record back in the US as my primary residence (I'm an American citizen), then register my secondary residence as "temporary" in Germany.

If that fails, it's back to America or off to Switzerland at least until all of this blows over.

There's one thing I know for sure in all of this. I was born to trade, this is my deal, and I'll be damned if some idiot politicians are going to take away the best job in the world from me.
  • #68
  • Jan 12, 2012 7:50pm Jan 12, 2012 7:50pm
pipjaeger: if you have a dual nationality passport german/us you have the option of choosing either london or zuerich as your residence. both will not take part initially and are way better in their living standards (especially zuerich) than anything in germany. however the question will be how they implement the whole thing since they will implement some kind of "if your counterparty is in a tobin tax country - somebody gotta pay".
  • #69
  • Jan 12, 2012 9:18pm Jan 12, 2012 9:18pm
[quote=cuchuflito;5290004]
Quoting Agro
If this tax is implemented it will mean the last 10 years of my life have been a complete and utter waste of time.

Common bro, there´s much more to life than trading....keep your head up....
I´m worried too...but life´s still awsome in so many ways...
Yes there is much more to life than trading, but this is my bread and butter and I have no other qualifications. I quit uni and alot of other things to get to where I am. 10 years of intense study and I have finally been full time trading for about a year now and now there is the threat that it may be taken away from me. For the most intense part of my trading studies I was doing 15+ hours a day and sleeping maybe 3-4 hours a night. Everything in my life was put on the back burner untill I got this down. I am sure people are in the same boat as me. It is no different than if I had studied medicine (it takes 5-10 years to become a fully qualified doctor in my country) and just as I became a fully qualified doctor they turn around and said no one can practice medicine anymore.

So there is more than just the fact that they are going to destroy the markets if this tax is successfull. They will also destroy many peoples livelihoods although I am sure this means nothing to them.
  • #70
  • Jan 13, 2012 1:28am Jan 13, 2012 1:28am
[quote=Agro;5291145]
Quoting cuchuflito

Yes there is much more to life than trading, but this is my bread and butter and I have no other qualifications.
So there is more than just the fact that they are going to destroy the markets if this tax is successfull. They will also destroy many peoples livelihoods although I am sure this means nothing to them.
Understand fully your woories...
still, with that kind of commitment nothing will stop you...let´s wait and see..I live in Germany since 30 years but was born in Argentina.
There´s a saying there:"Once the law is passed, the way around it is automatically created..."...you know, it´s just human beings..
  • #71
  • Jan 13, 2012 5:29am Jan 13, 2012 5:29am
Quoting Agro
Cheers triphog. So what will happen to EUR/USD and other EUR pairs. Will spreads widen and liquidity fall etc etc which would be a sure consequence if this was a co-operative move globally. Why would the German and French banks not just move operations to UK or any other nation that does not implement the tax. As you say, it will not last long if it is implemented, but a couple of years is a long time and then we have the recovery period before everything gets back to normal.
No problem Asbo

Can't say for certain, but the obvious answer is EU spreads go up, as does volatility, but not enough to compensate for rising spread, so yes it would be a handicap.

French & German banks will just move their spec operations offshore, clearly.

Don't see much cause for concern, it's a just a distraction from the unholy shitstorm of their sovereign debts
  • #72
  • Jan 13, 2012 8:04am Jan 13, 2012 8:04am
Quoting unknown4x
pipjaeger: if you have a dual nationality passport german/us you have the option of choosing either london or zuerich as your residence. both will not take part initially and are way better in their living standards (especially zuerich) than anything in germany. however the question will be how they implement the whole thing since they will implement some kind of "if your counterparty is in a tobin tax country - somebody gotta pay".
I'm not dual nationality, I'm an american under a foreign residence visa in Germany because my wife is German. I think this affords me a lot more opportunities to avoid this fascist tax. And I have to agree, Zuerich is amazing. I really want to live just north of Zuerich near the Bodensee. I just gotta get my German wife to want the same.
  • #73
  • Jan 13, 2012 8:20am Jan 13, 2012 8:20am
Quoting PipJaeger
I'm not dual nationality, I'm an american under a foreign residence visa in Germany because my wife is German. I think this affords me a lot more opportunities to avoid this fascist tax. And I have to agree, Zuerich is amazing. I really want to live just north of Zuerich near the Bodensee. I just gotta get my German wife to want the same.
Marry me...I want the same. But you should know that I'm not a woman ^^

I have started a thread in a german forum about the transaction tax some time ago. When you are interessted have a look...

http://www.wallstreet-online.de/disk...euer-im-anflug
  • #74
  • Jan 14, 2012 4:18pm Jan 14, 2012 4:18pm
"I have started a thread in a german forum about the transaction tax some time ago. When you are interessted have a look..."

Interesting cause I found 2 articles in that thread that state that it would not affect Forex.
If they stick to the Barroso plan from a few months back, Forex would not be taxed.Apparently that would be a disadvantage for THEM (the Governments) when borrowing money.Don´t ask me how that works, I´m not an expert.

The 2 links:
http://www.onvista.de/news/alle-news...aign=RSS-Feeds

http://www.bild.de/geld/wirtschaft/f...2620.bild.html

Actually if you dig deeper, you will find the details on the Barroso Plan for 2014, in the web...so far that´s the most detailed proposal...al the rest is just blal bla...l nobody knows what they will implement at all..
Still the interbank taxation could increase the spreads dramatically anyway, when the broker passes the costs to retailers....
Again, I´m not an expert...
Wonder if all the Stock daytraders will move to Forex then...
Cheers..
  • #75
  • Jan 14, 2012 4:47pm Jan 14, 2012 4:47pm
I have started a thread in a german forum about the transaction tax some time ago. When you are interessted have a look...

Also found this in that thread
Tobin tax 'could cost EU €116bn'


just Google that to read the complete analisys...it´s very intersting...

Here´s the article politicians will never read....remember, politicians trade on VOTES, and Tobin , alias Robin Hood Tax, is perfect for them, cause it let´s everyone believe the problems where originated by the Finance Sector, and not the politicians...so punishment and revenge....just like in the Middle Ages...
I´s sexy and it works...it looks like it´s comming guys...brace yourself...
  • #76
  • Jan 14, 2012 7:57pm Jan 14, 2012 7:57pm
Quoting cuchuflito
Interesting cause I found 2 articles in that thread that state that it would not affect Forex.
If they stick to the Barroso plan from a few months back, Forex would not be taxed.Apparently that would be a disadvantage for THEM (the Governments) when borrowing money.Don´t ask me how that works, I´m not an expert.

http://www.bild.de/geld/wirtschaft/f...2620.bild.html

Actually if you dig deeper, you will find the details on the Barroso Plan...
Excellent work, Cuchuflito! I really hope that sticks.

Here's a quick German translation from one of the German papers. It's from Bild, which is known for it's trashy gossip, so take it at face value.

Konsumentenverträge – beispielsweise Versicherungen, Hypotheken, Kredite – sollen nicht unter die neue Steuer fallen.
Auch die Emissionsmärkte (Primärmärkte) von Anleihen und Währungen sollen nicht besteuert werden, um die Kapitalbeschaffung von Regierungen und Unternehmen nicht zu erschweren.

"Consumer contracts - for example, insurance, mortgages, and credit shouldn't fall under the new tax. Even the primary markets of bonds and currencies should not be taxed, in order to prevent difficulties with the acquisition of capital for governments and businesses."

From the NY Times from a few months back:
"The measure will probably include taxes on the purchase of stocks and bonds; derivatives will probably be taxed at a lower rate. Transactions on the currency markets are not expected to be included."

I haven't been able to find much else about the plan relating specifically to forex. If anybody finds anything, please post it here!
  • #77
  • Jan 14, 2012 9:58pm Jan 14, 2012 9:58pm
official statement from german banking associations..from november but still up to date...

interesting infos, but only in german :nerd:

http://www.gdv.de/wp-content/uploads...aende_2011.pdf
  • #78
  • Edited 10:41pm Jan 14, 2012 10:26pm | Edited 10:41pm
official statement from german industry associations..from november but still up to date...

interesting infos, but only in german :nerd:

http://www.gdv.de/wp-content/uploads...aende_2011.pdf

according to this document there must be lots of unsolved legal and technical problems in the EU paper
  • #79
  • Jan 14, 2012 10:35pm Jan 14, 2012 10:35pm
"Artikel 10 Abs. 4 des Richtlinienvorschlags sieht vor, dass die Steuer im Falle elektronisch durchgeführter Transaktionen zum Zeitpunkt der Entstehung des Steueranspruchs an die Steuerbehörden zu entrichten ist, d. h. zum Zeitpunkt der Durchführung der Transaktion (vgl. Artikel 4 Abs. 1 Vorschlags). Im Fall nicht elektronisch durchgeführter Transaktionen soll die Steuer drei Tage nach der Durchführung der Transaktion entrichtet werden. Eine Steuererklärung mit Angaben zu den besteuerten Finanztransaktionen soll dagegen erst bis zum Zehnten des Folgemonats bei den Steuerbehörden eingereicht
werden müssen."

it means a trader would need to send a monthly tax report to the tax office every month, fees for any electronic transaction become due immediatley at the time of transaction

this is crazy
  • #80
  • Jan 15, 2012 3:19am Jan 15, 2012 3:19am
it means a trader would need to send a monthly tax report to the tax office every month, fees for any electronic transaction become due immediatley at the time of transaction

this is crazy[/quote]

Yes, crazy they are, vor votes...wonder if they would even bother reading any professional studies on the matter...

QUESTION: so you are a EU Citizen,the tax hits, then you move to UK and apply for a Residence permit...make a living trading?
Trade from your PC and live, or spend your days, wherever you please...
Guess one problem would be the health insurance you would have in UK.
Is this crazy or ilegal?
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