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  • #261
  • Jan 9, 2012 11:41pm Jan 9, 2012 11:41pm
Quoting mjws00
I love the pitbull threads.

There are a few things I noted when I tested this method:

The pitbull basket is not correctly hedged as has been noted in other places. You are short usd/jpy. The T101 basket is hedged correctly and shows the same things without the risk of being short yen. If it is on demo who cares, you can take the trades themselves in a separate account. But relying on the indicator to 'cycle' on live money is a disaster waiting to happen.

The indicator itself is no more than a heatmap, or list of biggest movers since you started...
no i think you have summed up enough points already quite nicely. you expressed it well. of course the typical answer will somehow involve the words "loss profit loss cycle", as though this is the answer to it all and not just hollow words.

either we are all just too dumb to understand what has been presented, or they don't understand what they are doing. since they don't even seem to understand how to use their own trading platform i'm confident we are not the dumb ones.

i unsubtly hinted earlier that this is just random trading. this point seems to have been lost on everyone. the key to any profit in any endeavor is 'controlling drawdown', yet here it is just words.... not coherent actions or concepts.

i'd have a bit more respect if someone just admitted they were hoping to not get caught holding a drawdown that kills them. that's the one saving grace of random trading... avoiding being in the market at the wrong time.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #262
  • Jan 9, 2012 11:58pm Jan 9, 2012 11:58pm
Quoting nubcake
no i think you have summed up enough points already quite nicely. you expressed it well. of course the typical answer will somehow involve the words "loss profit loss cycle", as though this is the answer to it all and not just hollow words.

either we are all just too dumb to understand what has been presented, or they don't understand what they are doing. since they don't even seem to understand how to use their own trading platform i'm confident we are not the dumb ones.

i unsubtly hinted earlier that this is just random trading. this...
talking to whats bolded :
true. and agreaably undeniable. well i say to whoever is looking at the whole "pitbull trader" thing to look at their largest profits and try to understand why that was profitable - instead of just trying to manage drawdown.. i think its actually more risk exposure with more trades opened and to manage about 10+ trades is one hell of a job to do. this isnt minimized risk its actually MAximized risk exposure with tryitn to cover loss here , recoup there, add here - its risky business.

would u do this live? thats the question. is the psychology able to take this?

did brijon do it live? iddint see much proof as to if it was live or demo or watever.

anyways i recommend everyone's own way to control drawdown but not random trading.

Gl to everyone here
Have I got something on my face, SOLDIER?
  • #263
  • Jan 10, 2012 12:02am Jan 10, 2012 12:02am
Quoting chips
All the BUYS are moving into to profit...looking for long profit...
Here are two indicators from T101 thread (similar to Orest indicator by Samir) which I have altered for pitbull pairs. Hope it is of help. It should be put on different charts for correct reading. (I don't how to make it work otherwise)
Attached Image
Attached File(s)
File Type: mq4 A-Samir-UNIVERSAL-Daily-PITBULL.mq4   19 KB | 826 downloads
File Type: mq4 A-Samir-UNIVERSAL-WEEKLY-PITBULL.mq4   19 KB | 717 downloads
"Put all your efforts in becoming effortless"
  • #264
  • Jan 10, 2012 12:03am Jan 10, 2012 12:03am
  •  MPP
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: Be yourself, everyone else is taken | 2,734 Posts
Quoting mjws00
I love the pitbull threads.

There are a few things I noted when I tested this method:

The indicator itself is no more than a heatmap, or list of biggest movers since you started it. The list on the market screen here at ff showing pips moved by timeframe shows the exact same thing.

It really would be fantastic if someone that can actually express themselves would explain the logic they are using with the system. There is discretion being applied that would likely be every bit as successful without using the pitbull basket.

Mike
first question and probably the most important is what type of system is pitbull

Longterm
trend chaser
millipeded
shortterm
scalper
etc

then you can start to look at the effects of the basket and how to best use them

in my view pitbull is a short term/hit and run/scalper - it's using the market strength or weakness to pick a trade in that direction, get in, grap a few pips and get out.

so realistically we don't need to hedge the basket correctly as we are using the 10 pairs to assess direction.

and this for me is where lies the problem - no one has identified this and thus people are confused about exits and control

Chips $55 -ve balance is actually equivalant to 550pips - this is his method of trading this system and it works (as can be seen by a few other members posts)

the logic behind baskets is more about market direction and less about individual pairs - market correlations - the bases being that when currancy start to move in one direction the knock on effect can be seen in most pairs and taken advantage of. (many baskets are closed in profit, but have losing trades within them)

Open the charts for all pairs and take a look at them - back right out on the chart so the candles/bars are as small as you can get them.

what do you see - generally they are all in the same direction - just a few swings here and there that differ - but in part all going the same way

by trading baskets we are no long subject to the individual pairs habits and our trading is smoothed out - but that baskets and not pitbull there 2 different ends of the same game, bit like 15min charts and weekly charts.

I have expressed it here before that the indicator pairs should be run in a demo account and i stick by this - it will save a lot of headaches when this market goes long - long term.


not sure if that helps - i might add to it later
  • #265
  • Jan 10, 2012 12:04am Jan 10, 2012 12:04am
Quoting bumapatria
talking to whats bolded :
true. and agreaably undeniable. well i say to whoever is looking at the whole "pitbull trader" thing to look at their largest profits and try to understand why that was profitable - instead of just trying to manage drawdown.. i think its actually more risk exposure with more trades opened and to manage about 10+ trades is one hell of a job to do. this isnt minimized risk its actually MAximized risk exposure with tryitn to cover loss here , recoup there, add here - its risky business.

would u do this live? thats the question....

i also mentioned elsewhere this is just hoping for reversion to mean, which works until it doesn't (hence the hoping to be out of the market at that time). i've never once seen anywhere brijon not saying to demo this demo that. it was always 'demo'. pretty big clue right there.

someone claimed they had met brijon personally and could vouch that he was rich and yadda yadda. well, maybe he was once profitable.... a long time ago perhaps. or perhaps this person who claims they met him was full of it (the more likely scenario). it's my impression that he is just now a shell of a man barely functioning. life is unforgiving, and no one gets out alive.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #266
  • Jan 10, 2012 12:12am Jan 10, 2012 12:12am
Quoting nubcake
i also mentioned elsewhere this is just hoping for reversion to mean, which works until it doesn't (hence the hoping to be out of the market at that time). i've never once seen anywhere brijon not saying to demo this demo that. it was always 'demo'. pretty big clue right there.

someone claimed they had met brijon personally and could vouch that he was rich and yadda yadda. well, maybe he was once profitable.... a long time ago perhaps. or perhaps this person who claims they met him was full of it (the more likely scenario). it's my impression...

well i wont doubt that many find this "system" hard to execute and perform profitably in a span of even a week full of trading. how about this - drag ur past orders from account history to ur chart to the respective instruments and focus on THOSE type of trades that give u profit. i see no reason to HEDGE at the same time.

hedging can be profitable even in 1 single pair. say u catch the bottom of a prevailing uptrend - u can go short at whatever levels to catch retraces or even a reversal and make a nice hedge profit lock. or if ure longer term trades in a loss u can hedge for minimizng loss as well.

but what he did in his videos mesmerized me in a weird way - as in it didnt make sense.


is there anyone in here that made consistent profits under 1 week?

and say u make gross profit of $10,000 from a $200,000 account in a week (just say) ur gross loss due to hedges would be around at least $7000 or $8000 with "no reason hedges". just a sort of theory

but would appreciate someone who could care to give a live or even demo account on the topic under the life of a week or more.

and how do u deal with positive and negative swaps? do u close all under a day etc...

why i ask all these q's? its unlikely to come out not sweating half to death from this - so if anyone DOES... share.
Have I got something on my face, SOLDIER?
  • #267
  • Jan 10, 2012 12:13am Jan 10, 2012 12:13am
  •  MPP
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: Be yourself, everyone else is taken | 2,734 Posts
Quoting nubcake
i also mentioned elsewhere this is just hoping for reversion to mean, which works until it doesn't (hence the hoping to be out of the market at that time). i've never once seen anywhere brijon not saying to demo this demo that. it was always 'demo'. pretty big clue right there.

someone claimed they had met brijon personally and could vouch that he was rich and yadda yadda. well, maybe he was once profitable.... a long time ago perhaps. or perhaps this person who claims they met him was full of it (the more likely scenario). it's my impression...
Demo, Demo, Demo - lets all bet this drum together

Basket trading is still new to the world of trading - it's only been around for about 6 years and there is much to learn


Just because i said so - dosen't make it so people - take the time to demo and study and you will soon see........Trading in any form is not easy.
  • #268
  • Jan 10, 2012 12:23am Jan 10, 2012 12:23am
Guys use your own entry rule. LOOK at the Trend..WHAT IS THE TREND?

Look at where all The BUYS are they are in profit..now look at the charts for each pair..

I can BE my long postions to remove risk.....OR make sales( take profit and runup by DD again...)

I not scared ...the broker is making nothing cause no stop loss...

BUY above the Daily Open and Sell below...

to stay with the trend and stop the worries about buy at tops and selling at bottoms.

the market always comes back to eat you alive.

All the analytics are out tonight..and dont want to demo

current..
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: pitbuljan9week-4.png Size: 300 KB
  • #269
  • Jan 10, 2012 12:28am Jan 10, 2012 12:28am
Quoting MPP
Demo, Demo, Demo - lets all bet this drum together

Basket trading is still new to the world of trading - it's only been around for about 6 years and there is much to learn
Thank you for this thread, as it is quite entertaining.
No...basket trading has been around quite a long time. Heck, its a staple of many equities traders.

Experienced traders don't waste time in demo, especially when the 'system's' flaws are quite easy to see. Prepare, plan, and *then* execute. It is stupid to go into demo and trade a system you don't understand.

With that being said, the last few posters are being quite nice and showed some of the faults of this method - i.e. random entries with advanced MM techniques. MM is not an edge. Averaging-down against losers is going to get you into trouble.

Now to ask why people are giving this thread a hard time is easy...a lot of dumb statements like "take profit when it's due" and "the market always comes back to profit loss profit", etc etc. Not to mention most of the responses are incoherent. With that being said...all of the systems in this forum are poor, but its always good to think outside the box.

Instead of wasting time opening hedges for pair momentum...why not just setup an index in whatever software you use and follow momentum that way? should be easier as you get a visual and time is continuous...then identify the strongest pair in relation to the index and trade it. seems like a better alternative to me.
  • #270
  • Jan 10, 2012 12:28am Jan 10, 2012 12:28am
I'm posting results and no one posting results..only critique and expression of previous BIASES...

I wish JPY could blowup in the morning and well see....What happens..

you wont know until you DEMO...
  • #271
  • Jan 10, 2012 12:34am Jan 10, 2012 12:34am
Quoting qwerty00
Thank you for this thread, as it is quite entertaining.
No...basket trading has been around quite a long time. Heck, its a staple of many equities traders.

Experienced traders don't waste time in demo, especially when the 'system's' flaws are quite easy to see. Prepare, plan, and *then* execute. It is stupid to go into demo and trade a system you don't understand.

With that being said, the last few posters are being quite nice and showed some of the faults of this method - i.e. random entries with advanced MM techniques. MM is not an edge. Averaging-down...

Man everyone comes here and say what they want to say...Why do ppl feel the urge to contribute...and they haven't even give the system a chance..

I said before I have a maximum DD limit on my account...that I use to make trades....is that so hard to comprehend..

I'm using DD to make trades...I am making trades by bringing my account into DD....Max limit...when I'm near it I stop strading..
And balance..the hedge..and allow the cycle to complete..theres cycle in each time frame..Did you know that?

I keep taking profits...while my account goes in DD...

I use techqiues to manage the DD...normal trading techniques..like tripple swap...Balance with the Trend like the BUYS in the previous screen shot.

Now is that so HARD...using DD...using borrowed funds..to profit from it..

Man...you guys...
  • #272
  • Edited 12:55am Jan 10, 2012 12:42am | Edited 12:55am
This concept is so easy...but too much experience here I guess.

What so hard to run 1 week of DEMO...Just run the hedge pairs and observe it..

TAKE NO trades..I said that before

WHY Brijon got frustrated

i can see why Brijon got frustrated..because he's not talking about the regular Candles..and TL and the famous 200 MA

And oh ..we know it all he must be mad man where did he come from.?..Talking about DD and RAW DATA feed in MT4.

So the broker gets the RAW price and convert it into Candles and we appreciate it...because they make us look smart.

But NOW we know how to use the RAW DATA in MT4, and make our own decisions from the raw DATA and something is wrong..

OH...hes blindly trading momentum....what? if theres no momentum why Trade..

Oh he either scalping pips..of entering blindly....Look at the screen..Do you see all BUYS...OH SO you see all SELLs, are they in profit or loss..
Are they scattered all over ..like yesterday.. so is that blind..

Give the forum a break ..and let those who want to share ..pertinent info do so...

THanks

Happy trading...
  • #273
  • Jan 10, 2012 1:13am Jan 10, 2012 1:13am
Chips,

A number of us ran this in demo when Brijon posted it, some of us even had short term success. You will do great while your two bottom pairs remain moving in a single direction.

You can run a triple swap trade, or a carry trade WITHOUT running up a large loss first.

Letting it ride to cycle or even out later is NOT viable money management with any reasonable size. Even on demo you will see it becomes a disaster with many large trade pairs stuck in permanent drawdown.

Drawdown control is trading logic applied to random entries based on their pair momentum. Why not pick good entries in momentum pairs? Letting your account drawdown deep to use 'Other Peoples Money' only works on DEMO. With meaningful money on the line you will make errors, hit margin calls, or be forced out due to common sense.

You are letting your losses run, and capping your profits. That is a tough way to earn a living.
  • #274
  • Edited 1:40am Jan 10, 2012 1:29am | Edited 1:40am
Quoting mjws00
Chips,

A number of us ran this in demo when Brijon posted it, some of us even had short term success. You will do great while your two bottom pairs remain moving in a single direction.

You can run a triple swap trade, or a carry trade WITHOUT running up a large loss first.

Letting it ride to cycle or even out later is NOT viable money management with any reasonable size. Even on demo you will see it becomes a disaster with many large trade pairs stuck in permanent drawdown.

Drawdown control is trading logic applied to random entries based...
I saw how frustrated you guys were back them ...and ppl used bigger positions relative to the account size and didn't spend enough time DEMO and..using off screen thinking and came back and wanted clearer explanation..I was one of you guys...BOOO..

I DEMO a bunch of other realize that building positions the millipede way..jsut as frustrating.....to see you account chipped away by small looses..
only to have 1 leg survive and the market came back and eat it..and you never really climbed above you statup capital..

I rather add little pips and run a deficit....grow the account consistently...when I'm satisfied..I'LL LEAVE SOME ON THE TABLE..FOR THE BROKER..

Drawdown control is trading logic applied to random entries based on their pair momentum.

How can it be random if momentum is saying downor UP . Just follow it.

Gimme a break...
SELL BELOW the Daily open and get out...OR BE to follow the flow..risk off

Buy above the Daily open and get out..OR BE to follow the flow..risk off

this for you, Mr. Knowitall

"Picking Entries is trading logic applied to random entries based on guess..and indicator and stop loss and postions management telling yourself if your guess is wrong then I only loose X amount."


Overtime you get demoralize because your account drops..and rise and drops and then you ask yourself is trading for me ...? maybe its the system i'm using...or the broker is a crook...

Man
YOu know what currency is moving from pitbull what's is so hard for you guys to understand..

picking good entries what is that based on ...indicators and some educated guess with , stop loss as your risk management and accept you loss ..and then price turn and move again in your direction and you sit and wish..that could be me only if..I had place my StopLoss here.

I grow the equity in this accout..and so what ..if I close now...I still have the 10K +..

I'm learning everyday....

There are other way to trade man....

Take and break and leave this thread...give your mind a break...
  • #275
  • Jan 10, 2012 2:03am Jan 10, 2012 2:03am
Quoting chips
Typical community destroyer....I know you actions...
But why...why...why..why do you do it..

I bet is fun you ....you get to talk about it at the bars...and Strip club..

and at BBQ..and stuff...

I know you want me to quit..even though i'm posting results...

OK..heres the deal you are welcome here to say whatever you want.
I wont say anything to you...

I know the feeling....

theres a big difference between being profitable and not. thats what i think hes tryng to say mate. wouldnt u rather profit and loss just from a single entry or 2 or 3? from 2-3 max pairs?rather than have to "manage" drawdown + profit from 10+ pairs?


isnt it stressful if u ever would like to go live? after all forex is really great experience live. (at least so far for me) if u aint then i believe its just a waste of the whole "forex life". u really learn to be put down by the markets - the closer u are to success, the more the market tries to put u down. You raise ur stake before the approriate amount of capital and market puts u down. u try to recoup losses in an illogical manner market puts u down. U maximize risk exposure by going long on positive correlation - market puts u down (Unless ure right lol but usually i wouldnt go with double positive correlation... id rather hedge profit when it retraces..) and now u are doing maximizng risk exposure WITH both sides of the market man! the positive and the negative ones! i mean its really asking for troble. u are hoping one of them comes to profit. at best ur net profit/los swould be at BE or at $1 or somewhere there because ur loss has eaten ur gross profits. thats sad - because u can just trade WIHT the profitableo nes.

try to think about it that way...


its no harm meant but just some advice from my humble opinion.
Have I got something on my face, SOLDIER?
  • #276
  • Jan 10, 2012 2:10am Jan 10, 2012 2:10am
Is seems to me that because we are here attempting to work this system and discover its merits (or lack of) by following some pretty simple instructions, some people seem to think we have just arrived here with no previous experience as complete newbies and are following blindly to our death.
This is a truly arrogant assumption.
I do not need to be saved from myself thank you.
I am big enough and old enough to learn from my own experience.

Some of us are quietly trading, yet the savours seem to think they can ascertain our experience and call us dumb based on what we contribute (or not) to FF. Well my friends there is much more to life and trading outside of FF!

We are working our business and unlike some do not need to use inflammatory comments and personal abuse around this forum to satisfy an inflated ego.

Some of us have been trading for years (and not just FX) but are willing to look, test and think about something if we find it of interest.

I for one have no time to flip around all the threads on FF trying to find some amusement. I would rather invest my precious time on something constructive like trading, my other businesses freinds and family.

It's not my role to protect other traders, it's their responsibility to think for themselves. If I wished to take on this role then I would leave this thread and seek employment with one of the regulators (hint).

Chips just keep it up.
I would not bother repeating things you have already stated. And I would not dignify abuse with a reply. Avoid being frustrated by people with no interest in what you are doing but plenty of time to flip around and waste their life. One day they will realise it's a futile waste of a their precious resoure and find a life.
  • #277
  • Jan 10, 2012 2:33am Jan 10, 2012 2:33am
Quoting chips

How can it be random if momentum is saying downor UP . Just follow it.

Gimme a break...
SELL BELOW the Daily open and get out...OR BE to follow the flow..risk off

Buy above the Daily open and get out..OR BE to follow the flow..risk off
It is random because you are starting to measure from a random point. When a pair hits the bottom to trade is arbitrary. When you decide it is stable and buy it is arbitrary. When you close it is arbitrary. Where is the edge, who is on the other side of your trade? How do you know when you are wrong?

If you are filtering by buying above the open and closing below, now you must discard valid pitbull signals. You aren't printing money any more you are trading, and the tool set being used is limited.

I had a number of great days with this system. But I also found that trend changes were brutal. Especially if you are taking profits. The only trades left in your basket will be losers.

The problem with everything related to these threads, is no one except the detractors communicate well. I love to learn and experiment, but this was an exercise in futility and I could see no way to move it to my real accounts without either too much risk, or such little potential reward that it would be meaningless.

Had Brijon even been somewhat capable of communication there were many interested parties, myself included.

If you are learning, you are on the right track. I hope you find a way to make it work. Courtneywild's results are unique and interesting. But he has a bunch of additional knowledge and experience he is applying to this non-system.

Good Luck.
  • #278
  • Jan 10, 2012 3:01am Jan 10, 2012 3:01am
Quoting courtneywild
Chips just keep it up.
I would not bother repeating things you have already stated. And I would not dignify abuse with a reply. Avoid being frustrated by people with no interest in what you are doing but plenty of time to flip around and waste their life. One day they will realise it's a futile waste of a their precious resoure and find a life.
I hope you have the patience to stick around and ignore the garbage in this thread. I think the dashboard and indicators you put together are the greatest contribution in any of the related threads.

Strength and momentum CAN be exploited, but there is more to it than clicking on the bottom pair, imho.

Keep plugging away chips, you might be the guy that makes the breakthrough in defining the system.

Mike
  • #279
  • Jan 10, 2012 3:47am Jan 10, 2012 3:47am
  •  MPP
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: Be yourself, everyone else is taken | 2,734 Posts
Quoting qwerty00
Thank you for this thread, as it is quite entertaining.
No...basket trading has been around quite a long time. Heck, its a staple of many equities traders.

Experienced traders don't waste time in demo, especially when the 'system's' flaws are quite easy to see. Prepare, plan, and *then* execute. It is stupid to go into demo and trade a system you don't understand.
I'd appreciate it if you could point to any threads that has info on basket trading - other than Kreslik and here, especially prior to 2006 - it's quite possibly true about the equity traders, but so far none have come forward.

always keen to find new material.
  • #280
  • Jan 10, 2012 3:53am Jan 10, 2012 3:53am
Quoting mjws00
I hope you have the patience to stick around and ignore the garbage in this thread. I think the dashboard and indicators you put together are the greatest contribution in any of the related threads.

Strength and momentum CAN be exploited, but there is more to it than clicking on the bottom pair, imho.
Quoting mjws00


Keep plugging away chips, you might be the guy that makes the breakthrough in defining the system.

Mike



Hi Mike you’re right it’s not just clicking on the bottom pair.
Its about fundi news, strength.
Its about taking a decision quickly.
Its about patience and accepting trades will go against you into DD
Its about deciding what you will do with the DD pairs. How far you are prepared to let a pair drop into a negative hole before you act or wait for the recycle.
If you act do you cull it and give money to the broker, hedge it, or buy more profitable sales (trades). These are choices a trader has to make.

If a pair drops into large DD I will look at the chart for exhaustion points and S/D zones to see if the potential turning point is within sight or risk is to high to keep it. I have yet to cull a pair with a large loss and moslty they have recylcled. I have $200 as my warning limit beyond that then its about risk tolerence. I don't look at charts beyond that.


One thing I have seen repeatedly with this is that trades will go straight into DD and instead of dropping down to the base of the basket and into profit in a relatively quick time, they will stay at the top for quite a long period, often hours with DD within my limit, but without gaining massive DD.
BUT then when they do recycle from there into profit its often very strong and pretty quick and where good profit is gained with a new trade at that point.
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