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Technical Analysis Fallacy

  • #29,321
  • Edited 1:50am Nov 26, 2011 1:27am | Edited 1:50am
you probably only know western chinese?

Inserted Video


or imperial chinese or communi chinese.
if you have no experience you only live in a small shell.
Sure you know when you blind and just touching elephants testicles.
Sure you can teach, when you have not mastered.
Why do you think the next generations all have little brains.

regards

Inserted Video


Inserted Video



Inserted Video
  • #29,322
  • Nov 26, 2011 1:32am Nov 26, 2011 1:32am
Quoting fti
There are many ways plot statistics and data. They methods to highlight certain aspects of price gyrations. If you know hoe to dance the markets rhythm, then these all only distractions.

Peeps thinks they understand many things, In fact the more they invent distractions, their skills deteriorates.

One example.
You think you understand the chinese. then try understand this.
Anything resembling what you thought?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXUZV6H7LUk


mainstream print knowledge is nothing.
No one gives you the real stuff.
Why...
Hi Fti

Thank you for your post.

I agree with you.

I also come to the conclusion that everything apart from candles is only good
to tame your anxiety and insecurity of your decisions. To not take fully responsibility for you actions.

Nice video, beautiful light. Is that a movie?
In some way the costumes resembled the one of the North American Indians, to me anyway.

mla
"The Heart is the hub of all dances; go there and chill out"
  • #29,323
  • Nov 26, 2011 1:38am Nov 26, 2011 1:38am
Quoting mla
Hi Fti

Thank you for your post.

I agree with you.

I also come to the conclusion that everything apart from candles is only good
to tame your anxiety and insecurity of your decisions. To not take fully responsibility for you actions.

Nice video, beautiful light. Is that a movie?
In some way the costumes resembled the one of the North American Indians, to me anyway.

mla
you mistaken, that i read candle charts.
Look at my charts. They really bar charts.
and i not reading charts or lines, I read the markets.

regards
  • #29,324
  • Nov 26, 2011 1:43am Nov 26, 2011 1:43am
Quoting fti
you mistaken, that i read candle charts.
Look at my charts. They really bar charts.
and i not reading charts or lines, I read the market.

regards
Fti

Nice one.

My self I do read the candles only and that makes me read/dance the market.

mla
"The Heart is the hub of all dances; go there and chill out"
  • #29,325
  • Nov 26, 2011 2:07am Nov 26, 2011 2:07am
Quoting N_Trader
Morning Chief,

I have a question today regarding the use of long and short swords. For long swords, do we carry the position over days/weeks? Or are we referring to only intraday (i.e. exhaustion of trend)?

Hope you can enlighten me.

regards

Oops... Hope I did not ask something stupid...
  • #29,326
  • Nov 26, 2011 4:17am Nov 26, 2011 4:17am
hi N_Trader

long sword is the use of options (which we do not have access to at fair prices) etc as far as i remember, it is refered to in post 27424.

what we do is (short sword) daylight trading (or should be doing), this lasts as long as your stamina can to stay awake and babysit your trade, we only carry over very small parts of the trade if with have captured more than enough pips to give a good sized buffer should things go against us while not at our screens.

this is the way i understood it, please correct me if i wrong anyone.

regards

Phil.
-be careful about what you allow to be put in your mind-
  • #29,327
  • Nov 26, 2011 4:26am Nov 26, 2011 4:26am
Quoting phil13
hi N_Trader

long sword is the use of options (which we do not have access to at fair prices) etc as far as i remember, it is refered to in post 27424.

what we do is (short sword) daylight trading (or should be doing), this lasts as long as your stamina can to stay awake and babysit your trade, we only carry over very small parts of the trade if with have captured more than enough pips to give a good sized buffer should things go against us while not at our screens.

this is the way i understood it, please correct me if i wrong anyone.

regards...
Thks Phil! I rem fti said that only long sword can bring in the bacons... looks like we'll never get to taste bacon?

regards
  • #29,328
  • Nov 26, 2011 6:06am Nov 26, 2011 6:06am
Quoting fti
One example.
You think you understand the chinese. then try understand this.
Anything resembling what you thought?


regards
I don't understand the Chinese at all but if I have to translate written words I use MS Word translator but never get proper translation, Taiwanese is very close language to Chinese I think and I liked the music you attached. Thank you
  • #29,329
  • Edited 9:15am Nov 26, 2011 8:37am | Edited 9:15am
Something to ponder about:

There’s an old trading adage that says,“One man’s staying power is another man’s foolish lack of discipline” ....



Also a nice story:

" There’s a great story about a famous local trader at the Chicago Board of Trade (CBOT). One day, he was on the floor of the CBOT and a U.S. inflation number came out that was totally unexpected. Pure pandemonium ensued.When all the noise died down, he walked out of the pit having made $10 million and said,“By the way, what was the number?”That, to me, captures it all."



from "Inside the house of money".

Because some mentioned it a few postings back: I also don't think it is a good read, especially when following fti's teachings. But I'm looking for some informations about how "Big boys", Hedge Funds and banks are trading, and I have to state, there is not too much material out there. So I "scan" everything I can find to gather some more informations ...

Cu,
Niels
  • #29,330
  • Nov 26, 2011 10:28am Nov 26, 2011 10:28am
Quoting MaMood
Something to ponder about:

There’s an old trading adage that says,“One man’s staying power is another man’s foolish lack of discipline” ....

[size=3][font=Bembo][size=3]

Also a nice story:

[indent][left]" [size=2][font=Bembo][font=Bembo][size=3]There’s a great story about a famous local trader at the Chicago Board [size=2][font=Bembo]of...
Hi Mamood, try reading "more money then god" you will get a gist that large funds take large risk and win big and also lose big.
  • #29,331
  • Nov 26, 2011 12:09pm Nov 26, 2011 12:09pm
Quoting the redlion
what i gather is that we must not use indicator to blindly follow them, the goal here is if i am not mistaken is to look at the market in more objective terms, and not rely solely on indicator read for signals with out processing that information and making a calculated conscious decision based upon experience and in context with the idea that because humans make price humans cannot be mathematically predicted in their actions and behaviors.
That's very interesting and it opens up a whole variety of important questions about our world and how we live in it.

So, we should not (if I am understanding you correctly) rely solely upon that which is mathematically based (in the final analysis) for our decisions about how we should interact with the financial markets. That's very interesting.

My question then be:

Should we stop before walking into our home and turning on the light switch, just to make sure that we have checked with the utility company to confirm that there is no anomalous, high voltage power surge, lurking between the primary high voltage coupling outside out home, and the primary circuit breakers inside our home? All of it (100%) controlled via computer algorithm at the Utility?

Here's another question:

Before boarding any commercially certified aircraft manufactured by Airbus Industries, should we stop and visit the manufacturer first, to ascertain whether or not there were any anomalistic occurrences during the design phase of the airframe and its aerodynamic nomenclature, as well as any design anomalies in the avionics and flight control systems, which are all (100%) designed with a computer and controlled by a computer algorithm in flight?

As you can see, one can ask a million such questions where human beings not only count on, but totally (100%) rely upon every single day of their lives in mission critical situations - where if real time human error were allowed into the system, the probability for anomalistic occurrence would increase several hundred fold, at least.

How do the teachings inside this thread, deal with such a staggering physical reality?


Quoting the redlion
and if indicators are used, then one must understand the purpose, how its calculated, and the statistical value is offered to filter that information and act on current market conditions.
How many traders understand High Voltage Mathematics? How many traders have in-depth knowledge of the physics of Electricity? Hundreds of millions of passenger miles are flown each year across the world's most expansive seas, with water depths reaching up to 5 miles and temperatures close to freezing, yet what percentage (in your estimation) of those flying passengers have an intellectual understanding of the CATIA version 5 enterprise applications that make their flights as comfortable as they are on a daily basis? How many drivers of automobiles around the world, fully understand the inner workings of the pneumatic breaking system designed into the vehicle, before they step on the gas, point the vehicle towards their house where their children are at play behind the garage wall and proceed to "park" in the garage, while relying 100% on the breaks AND the electronically controlled throttle system, to work as "designed."

There are literally millions of these kinds of questions lurking behind the scenes of the philosophy that you cannot make mission critical decisions using technical tools. We make them each and every day of our lives - often without even knowing it.

Take the commercial building High Speed Elevator. High-Tech Elevators that travel at speeds of 20 mph and that load-up the human body with g-force, are controlled (exclusively) via computer algorithm. Hundreds of thousand of people around the world are transported throughout a wide array of commercial building structures globally at these speeds, having their bodies loaded with with 1/3rd the g-force that an IndyCar driver experiences when heading into turn 3 at the Indianapolis Motor speedway. What happens to the global economy, when people stop relying exclusively on the technology (without fully understanding it) that carries their body to the floor that contains their office? Do they walk down 50 flights of stairs, for lunch - 100 flights total as they return to back to work?

These are not merely rhetorical questions. These are but the tip of the iceberg, of the kinds of questions that must logically come forth, when we start out by concluding that we cannot trust (elusively) the technology that we've created, after we have tested and proofed that technology for efficiency.

I don't want to dominate, or take over the thread, but I wish I had been in a position to interact and contribute in this thread from the beginning.

I think this is a great thread, by the way. I think it highlights some of the key differentials in the way that people approach the market, which can never be a bad thing.

So, I highly favor threads like this, because they keep us all on our toes.
  • #29,332
  • Nov 26, 2011 12:23pm Nov 26, 2011 12:23pm
Quoting GEfx
Hi Conceptual,
I never risk more than 2%, and 90% of the time less than that.

Hello again, GEFx!

What is the purpose behind your trading. At 2% aggregate risk per trade, unless you have opened an institutional trading account with several hundred to several million dollars, then the notional value per trade that you can move into and out of the market, almost becomes moot for any purpose beyond mere hobby.

Do you trade for a living, where you have financial responsibilities at the end of each month that must be resolved through the revenue you generate from your trading activity?

If this is too personal a series of questions, then please accept my apologies and feel comfortable in not answering them directly.

Quoting GEfx
As for the duration of the dance, I will dance as long as PA does what I expect it to do, and when PA stops doing what I expect it to do, I exit my positions. This has nothing to do with my ego (that I think I know where the market is going); instead, I've watched PA develop for well over 8 years, so I've heard the music, and witnessed the dance, many times.
Very well stated. Have you run any kind of historical performance analysis on the algorithm called:

'...dance as long as PA does what I expect it to do, and when PA stops doing what I expect it to do, I exit my positions.'?

Also, were you aware that such a statement is in fact an algorithmic format that is in use throughout the world be many different traders, in many different markets?


Quoting GEfx
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone, everywhere. God bless, and good trading!
Yes, indeed! God Bless and continue to be merciful on us all. I hope you had a wonderful day of Thanks & Giving!
  • #29,333
  • Nov 26, 2011 12:35pm Nov 26, 2011 12:35pm
Conceptual,

It might be a good idea to read the first few pages of this thread if you wish to understand why indicators and technical analysis are flawed.

However, rather than a theoretical argument, I propose you try a practical experiment. Pick a time frame, take you entries and exits when the Stochastic is oversold and undersold and then report back after 100 trades. I am pretty sure you will have lost money.

If you don't feel like waiting to test this live, you can manually backtest by going through old charts or find an EA that does this for you.
Kill the ego, or it will kill the mission.
  • #29,334
  • Nov 26, 2011 12:53pm Nov 26, 2011 12:53pm
Quoting fti
wierd line of questions, but lets see if i can help.
What makes them weird?


Quoting fti
1. I not serve God. If thats what you thinking. God never did ask me serve. God created me, asked me look after the weak in creation.
Did God "ask" you to look after the weak, or did He "command" you to look after the weak in His creation? If he merely "asked," would the response from you not be in "service" to God? And, if He "commanded," would the response from you be any less than "service" to God?


Quoting fti
I do my best just be part of what God created. Was Abraham, Issac , Noah......mankind created by different Gods?
The God who created Abraham, Issac and Jacob, would be the same God who sent His Son into this world to make a way possible for the redemption of humanity. That through His Son, Jesus Christ, all of humanity could be freed from the bondage of slavery, born of sin. That would also be the same God, who created the Universe in which we live -and- the same God, who created the physical laws that govern said Universe that we use on a daily basis, for kinds of things, including the trading of Financial Markets.

So, yes - we are getting very close to asking the question: Is the Universe random? But, since this is your thread, I think you should have the honor of prompting such a question, if you so desire (out of respect for you and your thread)


Quoting fti
2. Believe. What i believe is if you long and markets going down , surely lose pips.
We, therefore, share the same belief "system" in that regard.


Quoting fti
Numbers means nothing. Only bottom line means anything. At any time anything can be logically seems right or wrong. But my job is make pips, not make headache.
Fascinating. Numbers means nothing, but the bottom line is to make pips, which are themselves born of a Global Numbering System. Would you agree that such a statement 'numbers mean nothing' coupled to 'my job is [to] make pips' - provides at least some room for a slight contradiction, when pips themselves are born of a numbers based system?

Example: If you trade with a Stop located 30 pips away from your entry, and your Limit is 90 pips away from your entry, and the market decides to run the Stop level before moving in the opposite direction toward your Limit level, would the mathematical statement: 0 - 30 = -30, have any "meaning" to the overall "bottom line?"


Quoting fti
3.I am trained and certified Technical Analyst, so technical studies is my bread butter. So am i qualified discuss technical analysis? What about technical analysis would you like discuss?
Have you studied all forms of financial market technical analysis? That would be my very first question on the subject.


Quoting fti
4. Price? has no delta. Positions have delta. Exposure has delta. So i not know what you talking about.
Price has no delta? What would you call the Price Level of EURUSD @ $1.32308, if not a "position?" Price Level and Price Position would by logical conclusion, have to be exactly the same. If Price were able to exist absent its own Position, then Price itself would be capable of existing in multiple dimensions - which we know is not possible.

The Close of Bar [0] on M1, is the same as on M5, M17, M33, H8, D3 and W2. Therefore, both Price and Position must be equal.

So, I'll ask the question again: Are you familiar with all forms of technical analysis, including that concerning Price Delta Analysis?


Quoting fti
Thanks asking me all this, but really you and I , seems like duck talking to chicken. Lets see if we can find common ground talk.
regards
Yes! I would appreciate the respectful and enlightening dialogue on the subject that you have provided this forum.
  • #29,335
  • Nov 26, 2011 1:21pm Nov 26, 2011 1:21pm
Quoting AaronWard
Conceptual,

It might be a good idea to read the first few pages of this thread if you wish to understand why indicators and technical analysis are flawed.
I'm not sure where there is the assumption that I have not read beyond the first few pages. Everything has flaws, including human judgments about trade decisions.

My question is whether or not the human brain and/or human intuition, has a superior advantage [edge] over a pre-cognitive-like decision support system, where the reasoning behind making specific market decisions can be executed with 'flawless' precision?

If the human brain makes the decision, then the decision is based on what the human brain understands and how the human brain interprets both internal and externally driven information. Those same heuristics can be formalized into a pre-cognitive-like decision support system, driven by algorithmic stings of logic that arrive at not the same final judgments, but superior final judgments.

Human intuition and its inherent variability are great for things like baking pies and cakes - you will get a different flavor every time. That can be a very good thing. However, unlike baking pies and cakes, when it comes to making decisions about the behavior of a mission critical enclosed environment, would it not be far better to study the attributes of said "structure" and derive a pre-cognitive-like decision support system, to increase the effectiveness of the decisions being made in said system?

If the market has "structure," as fti has already conceded, then by logical extension it also has predictability. Structure, denotes design. Design cannot exist absent purpose. And, purpose denotes intelligence. Therefore, that which has structure, must also have predictability.

Inversely, if a thing lacks predictability, then it also lacks real structure - be logical extension.

Thus, if a thing can be predicted (at least to some degree), then why inject a higher degree of error through the over use of human intuition, when said intuition can be removed from the decision support process, to yield a higher level of final judgment accuracy?

This is the dilemma facing the OP's theory, that technical analysis is flawed.


Quoting fti
However, rather than a theoretical argument, I propose you try a practical experiment. Pick a time frame, take you entries and exits when the Stochastic is oversold and undersold and then report back after 100 trades. I am pretty sure you will have lost money.
Which is like saying: Pick a bridge (preferably the Golden Gate), jump off 100 times during high tide and expect to be able to live to tell about it.

A far better experiment would contrast a trader who guesses about the direction the market will take next, with a trader who uses a decision support system predicated on the empirical evidence that is contained within the "structure" of the market, using whatever technical tools they have at their disposal. I would that that such an experiment would yield a better understanding about the voracity behind the claim that technical analysis is flawed.


Quoting fti
If you don't feel like waiting to test this live, you can manually backtest by going through old charts or find an EA that does this for you.
I'll go head and make a fairly simple EA predicated on the restriction that nothing else other than Stochastics be used and I'll post the results here at a later time. If I forget, please remind me.
  • #29,336
  • Nov 26, 2011 1:22pm Nov 26, 2011 1:22pm
i have a feeling he read the thread and is asking logical, scientific questions, so it helps US TO GIVE HIM LOGICAL ANSWERS. merely saying i do this because i just do, is no good. whether we are aware of our actions or our Modus operandi there is a REASON for everything.


and to answer your question regarding, mathematical precision and the markets.
i find your analogies to be moot, given the fact that you are going into aero dynamics, and mechanics.

where mathematical precision is required, and has been tested and proven to be A+B always = C

the markets is a conglomeration of human decisions and psychology, interest,greed, fear, perception of information. Human behavior cannot be mathematically predicted.

why do you think psychology is such a broad spectrum, hit and miss science?

here is a little example.

a girl get raped (this is the cause)
we can expect, depression, anger, insomnia, PTSD, guilt, possible memory loss due to a defense mechanism that blocks painful memories, lack of trust, possible suicidal thoughts, periods of sexual aggression, and sexual repression..........etc (this are just a few of the possible effect)

do you think every female that is raped will act exactly the same way? will they all be promiscuous? will they all be suicidal? can their behavior be mathematically quantifiable? the answer here is no.
these are broad spectrum symptoms that have been observed and are possibilities but there are an array of different factors, that can affect the outcome of how psychologically damaged a person will be after such traumatic event.
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #29,337
  • Nov 26, 2011 2:24pm Nov 26, 2011 2:24pm
Quoting the redlion
...where mathematical precision is required, and has been tested and proven to be A+B always = C
I assume you are asking a question - but it is hard to tell based on the way it was written. I shall try to answer as best I can.

In reality, the belief about a thing being moot, is moot itself - unless and until one can put forth a counter-reality that disproves the contradiction having been exposed with logic and reason.

The contradiction resides in the OP's first statement that the market has "structure." Yet, at the very same time, the OP concludes that such a structure has no predictable measure, by likewise concluding that technical analysis of said structure (read: market) is a waste of time at best.

That is an abundant contradiction. All I have done here, is highlighted the contradiction, for the purpose of understanding its source and origin. In other words, I'm trying to better understand why some traders decide to ignore that which cannot be ignored, while concluding at the same time that they believe in "structure." On the surface, the conclusion is quite illogical and non-rational.


Quoting the redlion
the markets is a conglomeration of human decisions and psychology, interest,greed, fear, perception of information.
Yet, with all that "variability," the market has but only two (2) choices:

- The market can go up.
- The market can go down.

Even the sideways market contains vertical structures of shorter cycles and tighter frequencies of both Up and Down. The amplitude of those cycles in sideways markets, is likewise constricted. Distance and Rate of Speed, even during sideways markets, are confined to the vertical dimension. Whereas, Time, gives the trader the structure within which to make "decisions" about whether to be either Long, or Short, in markets that do not provide much derivative open interest.

[in other words, option trading is not naked trading]


Quoting the redlion
Human behavior cannot be mathematically predicted.
This is the fallacy of the conclusion that topics like: "Technical Analysis Fallacy," has merit. Of course, human behavior can be predicted.

Grab 100 licensed drivers, put them into their respective vehicle and given each of the same instruction: step on the gas, drive to the nearest stop light. Place an approaching Police Officer in his unit, perpendicular to the direction traveled by each driver in the sample as the the Police unite enters the intersection just ahead of them.

Now, out of 100 licensed drivers (without DUI, or any other form of physical and/or mental impairment at play), calculate the probability that less than 93% of them will bring their car to a full and complete stop (assuming no mechanical flaws in their vehicle) before running the red light directly ahead of the Officer coming out of the right side of their windshield.

Can't predict human behavior? Not only can we, but we do it on a frequent basis all the time. Entire multi-billion dollar business models are predicated on the assumption that human behavior can be predicted.

The problem here, is that those who cling to the notion that technical analysis is flawed, all too often fall directly into the trap of using human beings as a shield against rational thinking and better judgment. They typically use the statement that: The market is composed of a vast number of human beings, all doing different things at once - yet they never stop to realize that even so, all those human beings can do, is move the market either UP, or Down.

The market cannot move in a billion different directions - regardless of the fact that a many human beings participate in the market. The two ideas are mutually exclusive. A billion people drive through some kind of light controlled intersection each and every day (if you don't like the aerodynamics analogy) and the vast majority of them come to a full and complete stop at the red light, while stepping on the throttle at the green light.

Green Light = Long
Red Light = Short
Yellow Light = Flat

Sometimes, a driver fails to halt at the red light, causing an accident which ends up in a collision - which itself is a predictable variable. But, the vast majority of the time (97%), the prediction about human behavior holds true and the light is adhered to.


Quoting the redlion
why do you think psychology is such a broad spectrum, hit and miss science?
Psychology, is different from Probability Mathematics. Again, this is the part of the problem. Those who believe that technical analysis is flawed, often times tend to use the incorrect metric for making that conclusion. All too often attempting to insert Psychology, into the domain ruled by Mathematics. This is done in error, IMO.


Quoting the redlion
here is a little example.

a girl get raped (this is the cause)
we can expect, depression, anger, insomnia, PTSD, guilt, possible memory loss due to a defense mechanism that blocks painful memories, lack of trust, possible suicidal thoughts, periods of sexual aggression, and sexual repression..........etc (this are just a few of the possible effect)
All of that is misplaced theory. The Trader does not get raped and then sits down at his/her computer to place a trade.

Now, of course, there are traders who lose a lot and conclude that the market has "raped me." There might be some truth to that. But, unless you twist and contort the Psychological model to fit a Mathematical model, then this analogically derive model is simply out of place and itself is moot.


Quoting the redlion
do you think every female that is raped will act exactly the same way?
The commercial aircraft being designed with a computer, flown by a computer and sequenced in and out of airborne traffic with a computer, is a proper parallel and juxtaposition to a trader who designs their trading system with a computer, makes trading decisions with a computer and calculates their probability of success using a computer.

A Female getting raped and her associated psychological trauma in effect, as an appropriate parallel to the psychology of a trader, is highly inappropriate and wildly off model.

The psychology of a trader which results in price action, can be studied, tracked, digitized, analyzed, filtered, and algorithmically understood, even to the point of being predicted. This is being done all day, every day.


Quoting the redlion
...these are broad spectrum symptoms that have been observed and are possibilities but there are an array of different factors, that can affect the outcome of how psychologically damaged a person will be after such traumatic event.
Again, such an analogy does not fit the question of whether or not algorithmically driven decisions are flawed.
  • #29,338
  • Nov 26, 2011 3:18pm Nov 26, 2011 3:18pm
Quoting MaMood
Something to ponder about:

[size=3][font=Bembo]There’s an old trading adage that says,“One man’s staying power is another man’s foolish lack of discipline” ....[size=3]


Also a nice story:

[indent][left]" [size=2][font=Bembo][font=Bembo][size=3]There’s a great story about a famous local trader at the Chicago Board [size=2][font=Bembo]of Trade (CBOT)....
MaMood

I like your stories, more please, more.

I also agree with you about the lack of literature on the subject.

mla
"The Heart is the hub of all dances; go there and chill out"
  • #29,339
  • Nov 26, 2011 3:36pm Nov 26, 2011 3:36pm
Hi Conceptual, how are you? My name is Zoran (yes, that is my real name). Just a simple question, just in case I have missed a leap in technological advancement, are you human or machine (i.e. an A.I. program)? I think I know the answer but I just want to make sure.

My native language is English and I believe I have a good understanding of logic but I still find it difficult to understand your points, so. I. have. to. read. it. slowly. just. to. get. a. grasp. of. it., just. as. the. little. voice. in. your. head. is. reading. this. slowly.

So don't worry about answering the question above as I actually do know the answer but can you please let me know why I can't buy a car, where I can type in the destination, go to sleep and expect the car to wake me up when I get there?
  • #29,340
  • Nov 26, 2011 4:17pm Nov 26, 2011 4:17pm


Conceptual

This is all interesting.

For some reason that I cannot explain I like this figure, Conceptual and I like to welcome him/her very much here.

He is very agile and moves like a young tiger and in my little understanding he makes valid points at least to be considered.

I have only one question if you do not mind answering: Why did you choose Conceptual as your name?

Why do I want to know? Not sure.

All the Best
mla
"The Heart is the hub of all dances; go there and chill out"
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