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  • #21
  • Nov 24, 2011 6:33am Nov 24, 2011 6:33am
Quoting havaiana
If you were talking about obvious highs and lows where orders congregate i could see your point. You really think XX bank gets a large order from a corporate client, or Paul Tudor Jones wants to make a trade and they quickly go check the open of the last hour candle?

I disagree, so i must just be autistic
It seems to me highly likely that when XX bank gets a large order they do not randomly hit a buy or sell button, but first look at a chart. My understanding is that the 5 min and the 1 h charts are the ones they are the most likely to look at. When you look at a charts you see highs, lows and reversal patterns. Reversal patterns are very specifically defined by the open and close of the last candle and the one before it.

However, they probably do not say "last hour opened at 1.3221. Rather they look at the color, size and shape of the candle just like you and me. So yes, they pay attention to an arbitrary construct (the candlestick) and one of the 4 key key parts of the candle stick is the open.

As for you being autistic... I hope not for your sake. But seriously, the comment was to underscore the reality that a massive order will not be dumped "randomly" on the market with no consideration for tactics. And if they are looking at a candle stick chart, the open will have more weight than the second immediately following it.
Kill the ego, or it will kill the mission.
  • #22
  • Nov 24, 2011 6:34am Nov 24, 2011 6:34am
i disagree with you on that count----directed at Ha pattern

many traders believe the tick, one minute or five minute chart is noise or randomness but there is nothing random about them

they are crucial to understanding the higher time frames

1440 minutes= one daily candle

look at the BID/ASK quotes themselves as your basis to trade, you see they are all the same no matter what TF you choose, 1.3350 will hit that exact price on daily, tick, monthly, hourly, weekly.

keep in mind that it is precisely from the movement of these that you get the higher timeframes.

as the tick edges lower and bounces up and lower it goes, you are not trying to catch a pattern, what you SHOULD BE ASKING YOURSELF is OVERALL DIRECTION
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #23
  • Nov 24, 2011 7:15am Nov 24, 2011 7:15am
Quoting the redlion
many traders believe the tick, one minute or five minute chart is noise or randomness but there is nothing random about them
Rather I should have said, the lower time frames are just as random as the higher ones. It's only that the lower ones reveal more of this.

This understanding came from too much HG chasing, trying to pin down with one or a series of temporary or standard chart (or, for others, chart indicators') patterns, the first defense vs. randomness.
I tend to get very deep into a chart's meaning. For a very long time, I keep having to reshape how to look at the chart, and every fifth instance of patterns and lines projected from them seems to be new. Maybe the corollary is how different each news item, if read for its qualitative views, can be interpreted.

So maybe "complex" is a better word. Anyhow, yes, overall direction, U or D and speed therein.
  • #24
  • Nov 24, 2011 7:20am Nov 24, 2011 7:20am
Quoting ha-pattern

So maybe "complex" is a better word. Anyhow, yes, overall direction, U or D and speed therein.
Complex is a good word.

Time frames and candlesticks are about reducing and packaging information, not increasing information. That there is some sort of tradeoff is natural... every time you reduce the amount of information, something goes missing. But is the tradeoff worth it? For me, definitely.
Kill the ego, or it will kill the mission.
  • #25
  • Nov 24, 2011 10:35am Nov 24, 2011 10:35am

Warning: The adjacent post may possibly contain a high degree of naiveness due to the posters inherent hard headed attitude and lack of comprehension beyond basic understanding, he may also over complicate the issue with non important philosophies and nonsense beyond normal.
You have been warned.


(at least im honest )


For starters, i see many people who dont actually trade the reality, but their interpretations and beliefs, and theres a fine line between perception/reality:

Reality = consistency /// Perceptions = no consistency


Timeframes wouldnt exist without orders. Orders wouldnt exist without traders. Traders wouldnt exist without a market.

 

  1. Markets > Traders > Orders > (DOM?) > Ticks > Small timeframe > Big timeframe


If this 'logic' holds truth, then:

 

  1. The 'bigger' the timeframe, the less predictable moves will be.

  1. The reasons for price to move 'right now' will not be the same reasons for it to move in x time from now.

  1. Essentially I see a distancing from the true 'source' of the current move/s. And to profit, consistently, we must act in the current.


Knowing this, then how does using 'top-down' approaches make sense?

Wouldnt it make more sense to trade as close as possible to the current moment (ticks, dom,...), irrespective of 'higher timeframes'?

Doesnt it make more sense to use the current price as a reference for overal market interest? (Direction > Intensity > Weakness)


As for candlesticks (irrespective of timeframe!) the only current thing i see them worthwhile for is to interpret the intensity/weakness of orders/movement.

If a candle opens at '0' and closes at '+5' then:

Use the "close" to gauge the intensity/conviction (or its weakness) of profits being held by current open orders.

Use the "wicks" to identify the transfer of profit ocurring between traders.

These are my thoughts for now, sorry if this seems confusing because it is! still clearing my thoughts up and taking my time to write.

PS: There is ONE thought i have as to multiple timeframes but it is even more confusing than what i just wrote!

  • #26
  • Nov 24, 2011 10:47am Nov 24, 2011 10:47am
Quoting Pipalicious

Warning: The adjacent post may possibly contain a high degree of naiveness due to the posters inherent hard headed attitude and lack of comprehension beyond basic understanding, he may also over complicate the issue with non important philosophies and nonsense beyond normal.
You have been warned.


(at least im honest )


For starters, i see many people who dont actually trade the reality, but their interpretations and beliefs, and theres a fine line between...
three points.

First, if you want to judge the intensity or conviction, watch the candlestick being formed in real time. This can be either intensely boring or exciting depending on what is happening, your state of mind and your level of concentration. This will give you a very good sense of order flow and market sentiment.

Second, most people say that the larger time frames are easier. Certainly they are simpler and you have a lot more time to think about what you want to do. I prefer the lower time frames, but I reference the higher time frames. If there is a good set up in the higher time frames then I will look for a higher TF exit.

The decision between higher and lower is really a function of spare time (more time you have, the lower the time frame you use) and personality. Forex junkies like myself like the lower time frames because there is a lot more to do and think about.

Third, there is a technique to train yourself to be able to read several time frames off of one chart.
Kill the ego, or it will kill the mission.
  • #27
  • Nov 24, 2011 11:09am Nov 24, 2011 11:09am
Quoting AaronWard
..First, if you want to judge the intensity or conviction, watch the candlestick being formed in real time. This can be either intensely boring or exciting depending on what is happening, your state of mind and your level of concentration. This will give you a very good sense of order flow and market sentiment.
I have always believed this. I think a trader that can wrap his/her head around this truly has the "keys to the kingdom". An interval that opens on its low and then trades up to its high and stays there for the rest of the period has a different meaning than an interval that opens at its low, meanders and then suddenly bursts up to the high only seconds before the close of the period.

Quoting AaronWard
Third, there is a technique to train yourself to be able to read several time frames off of one chart.
Advanced Japanese Candlestick users call it "Candlestick Blending".
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #28
  • Nov 24, 2011 11:27am Nov 24, 2011 11:27am
Quoting havaiana
Open and closes of markets can be important (in terms of liquidity/volatility), but open and closes of candles are irrelevant. I do think the highs and lows of the candles are relevant though.
Total gobble-de-gook. For a candle to have a high & low it has to be time based, seconds, minutes or hours etc.

Aaron Ward & Triphop.
It never gets easier, you just get better
  • #29
  • Nov 24, 2011 11:32am Nov 24, 2011 11:32am
Quoting Shabs19
Total gobble-de-gook. For a candle to have a high & low it has to be time based, seconds, minutes or hours etc.
Tick-based candles (say a 30-tick chart for example) have highs and lows and have nothing to do with time.

Range-based candles (say a 7-pip range chart for example) have highs and lows and have nothing to do with time.
  • #30
  • Nov 24, 2011 11:36am Nov 24, 2011 11:36am
The only times that are important to me are when all the banks start and stop trading. Oh, and when they go to lunch is important as well.
  • #31
  • Nov 24, 2011 11:37am Nov 24, 2011 11:37am
But you already know what the high & low of each candle will be for the next 30 tick candle or the next 7 pip range candle and so on.

There is a perfectly valid reason for each argument to be correct in it's understanding.
It never gets easier, you just get better
  • #32
  • Nov 24, 2011 11:46am Nov 24, 2011 11:46am
Quoting HiddenGap
Advanced Japanese Candlestick users call it "Candlestick Blending".
Its pretty easy. Just practice doing this for a few days and you should get it.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Kill the ego, or it will kill the mission.
  • #33
  • Nov 24, 2011 11:47am Nov 24, 2011 11:47am
Quoting Shabs19
But you already know what the high & low of each candle will be for the next 30 tick candle or the next 7 pip range candle and so on.
No you don't.

For a Renko chart or a grid chart you do...but not for tick or range bar charts.
  • #34
  • Nov 24, 2011 1:16pm Nov 24, 2011 1:16pm
Quoting Pipalicious

  1. What exactly is the true purpose/use of a timeframe?

To overlay a Time Template on price, such that Price over Time calculations are possible. If the market has meaning (which is does) then such Price/Time calculations have predictive value.


Quoting Pipalicious

  1. Do we need these TF's to trade? (i have a suspicion we dont).

Of course, not. Back before there were electronic exchanges, people literally stood out in the street (physically) and shouted their orders through the window, to someone who would then run their order to the floor. Those were really the "old days." No computers, no charts and no concept of Price over Time calculations. Just people standing in the streets, in the rain, in the snow and in the heat, shouting back and forth at each other - doing the business of what eventually become known as the New York Stock Exchange.


Quoting Pipalicious

  1. What gives a timeframe more importance than another (spreads aside)?

Time Frame = Price over Time. Time without Price, is useless. The "Frame" is inclusive of the double component and the frame yields an ability to determine many things about the behavior or price over time. Still, there are other dimensions of the market that are equally as important.




Quoting Pipalicious

  1. What exactly is a REAL consistent pro trader looking for on a chart?

Consistent movement in price -after- the trade is entered. That's the entire ball game. So, whatever tools that one uses to forecast the consistent movement in price after entering the market, is a tool worth finding.


Quoting Pipalicious
There are four things (that i understand so far) that occur in the 'now', and that is:

- strong directional moves.
- strong non directional moves.
- weak directional moves.
- weak non directional moves.
This is all the market does. The question is, to what Degree and to what Frequency, do both Directional and Non-Directional movements occur, or to what Degree and Frequency are they likely to occur, next. That is the nature of trading and that is what all good traders know very well.

Quoting Pipalicious
If this is true (which its probably all wrong anyways ) then why do we need so many timeframes, confluences, and what not ninja tecnical patterns for?
Patterns are visible because of Time. Remove Time, and the fabric that contains Pattern, disappears. The dimension of Time, is important to draw out the patterns that do exist. Without Time, there can be no progression of price from one level to the next, because it takes "Time" for price to progress in the first instance.

Trying to extract Time, from the equation of the Universe (in which we trade) is not possible, nor practical. Time provides the framework within which we conduct our business on a daily basis.

Long live the dimension of Time!

Read the book: Philosophy and the New Physics, by author Jonathan Powers. It could help to put the dimension of Time, into good focus.

Stephen Hawking's book: "A Brief History of Time," also discusses the 'Arrow of Time' and describes (conceptually) how it fits in our known Universe.

We need Time, and Time needs us.
  • #35
  • Nov 24, 2011 1:37pm Nov 24, 2011 1:37pm
Quoting hanover
If you believe that timeframes are an illusion, then find and apply technical tools that are timeframe-independent.
Exactly. Here's a simple B2i Indicator that I use to target Swing Trades. Without the dimension of time, it would not be possible:

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/t/9fb20.jpg


Quoting hanover
Candlesticks depend upon timeframes for their very existence.
Agreed. I think what the OP is trying to get it, is whether or not there are other factors that he can rely upon consistently, because relying upon time, as mostly likely not worked out for him - given the way he trades. At least, that would be my assumption, given the original post (I don't want to put words in his mouth).
  • #36
  • Nov 24, 2011 1:41pm Nov 24, 2011 1:41pm
Speaking of extra gravy, I'm getting hungry.

Happy Thanks Giving Day to All who celebrate the occasion!

  • #37
  • Nov 24, 2011 1:52pm Nov 24, 2011 1:52pm
Quoting zznbrm
For a Renko chart or a grid chart you do...
If price gets there - but only Time will tell. No pun intended.

Time holds all the secrets in the palm of its rather large scale hand. Though Time is not infinite, it certainly has seen all there is to see inside our Universe.

So, the Renko, does not know, until Time permits him to know. Thus, Time, just about knows all there is to know about our world.
  • #38
  • Nov 24, 2011 2:32pm Nov 24, 2011 2:32pm
Quoting Pipalicious
What the hell does a 1h TF have to do with a massive order placed 24seconds ago?

Markets are not about time, but about price; buyers and sellers, bidding/asking, a constant flow of orders non stop...
Personally, I tend to agree with you.

If I see Sellers, for example, competing over a price level; selling everything in sight on rallies; not even allowing the market to get up to recent sell-off levels before they sell more; then I throw my lot in with them. I look for Bulls competing with other Bulls; Bears competing with other Bears for Price. That's just how I look at things. Number of people who give a shit? Goose egg! That's cool with me!
  • #39
  • Nov 24, 2011 2:44pm Nov 24, 2011 2:44pm
the concept of time and distance = strength

but how do you know you are right? from bottom to top
if your analysis is being done in a monthly or daily basis your bias is above or below open, then you zoom in and see if its panning out as planned.

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as you can see, we can have a prediction of where the price is going for the daily chart and i try to keep myself aligned with that movement but how price acts NOW, in relation to our prediction, to yesterdays low and high, to how strong the move is today, and the range, and if today shows deceleration in relation to yesterdays move,

as i have observed price goes from point of inflection to acceleration to loss of momentum to correction ABC over and over and over again,

so i would predict a correction but am i right? who knows, it depends on the 5 minute to show me whether the hourly is likely to move up or not, and the hourly to show me how the daily is likely to align, and the daily will determine how the monthly is likely to align.

we look at the strength from up to down and the proof or disprove of our theory from down to up, so the tick disproves you on how the five minute candle is acting before it forms, so i would say to pipalicious.

yes it is best to TRADE IN THE NOW as the NOW proves or disproves your theory.
but to look at the STRENGTH OF THE MARKET IN RELATION TO TIME AND PRICE, higher time frames give you a better picture
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #40
  • Nov 24, 2011 3:33pm Nov 24, 2011 3:33pm
I suspect that the problem that we run into with markets is related to this.
The Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle,

This states that it is impossible to perfectly measure a particle’s position and velocity at the same time. The more accurately you measure a particle’s position, the more inaccurate your measure of its velocity, and vice versa.
We are all One. Be present. Be the Observer
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