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I fail again and again and bite the dust

  • #41
  • Nov 16, 2011 10:58pm Nov 16, 2011 10:58pm
Quoting JR97
What good does that do if his trading mechanics, money management, trade management, and discipline suck? From what it sounds like, he could have tomorrow's news paper and still lose money. I'd gander to say that most traders would still lose even with tomorrow's newspaper.

Making money consistently and being able to explain why markets move have little to do with each other.
Again, you are spot on. Test your rules to prove them...then trade them as tested. It's very simple...but not always easy.
  • #42
  • Nov 16, 2011 11:02pm Nov 16, 2011 11:02pm
Quoting NevilleC
Had similar experiences so I feel your pain. I am now consistently profitable (took me 3 years) and here are some lessons learnt:

0) You are not serious about your trading. In your mind it is OK to consistently lose - therefore you are not really in this to make a profit.

1) You will only walk away from a certain mode of behaviour when the pain becomes unbearable (this holds for personal and professional relationships too). Because you state that you perform well when there is someone to punish you when you do not, devise a system to punish...
Also excellent advice, Neville.
  • #43
  • Nov 16, 2011 11:15pm Nov 16, 2011 11:15pm
  •  MPP
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: Be yourself, everyone else is taken | 2,734 Posts
my 2 cents worth

traders should stop thinking about winning and losing and more about EXITS, EXITS and EXITS

each trading method must have a defined set of rules for exits - they may still lose but so long as it is within the rules it a good exit

Bad exits are those that don't have control, driven by fear, gread, gut and the i know better mind set.

every trade should be analised to ensure it meets the rules and if not why not.

Tp's, Sl's, reversal signals etc are all good exits if they meet the rules for your method, anyone can enter a trade on any pair from any point - but only a few will know whats the best exit.

trading is not always about being in the market, a good trade for the day may simply be to stay out.

what this all comes down to is simple - rules

they should be clear and easy to understand and pasted on every wall that is anywhere near a trading platform that you can open a trade on

best of pips

MPP
  • #44
  • Nov 16, 2011 11:24pm Nov 16, 2011 11:24pm
  •  MPP
  • Joined Jun 2007 | Status: Be yourself, everyone else is taken | 2,734 Posts
Quoting JR97
What good does that do if his trading mechanics, money management, trade management, and discipline suck? From what it sounds like, he could have tomorrow's news paper and still lose money. I'd gander to say that most traders would still lose even with tomorrow's newspaper.

i'd like to have a go though - i think 1 weeks worth would compound nicely. let me know when the paper comes out.
  • #45
  • Edited 4:44pm Nov 19, 2011 12:35pm | Edited 4:44pm
I think you are asking a lot for just one year's worth of experience. First, you should not be opening an account more than a $1000. Now consider that tuition. Give yourself a timeline such as a quarter or semester. The idea is to if you go above the account assess how you got there at the end of the quarter or semester and do the same if you lost money. Demo's cannot get you into the game. You gotta have skin in the game or you won't learn. Demo's are good for learning how to use a platform but little else.

That said, if you have a system of rules in place that work rather consistently, you need to set targets for yourself.

I use the google calendar:
Sunday is my account balance so I put AB 1780 (for example). The following Saturday I put my target price which is 2% per day based on 5 days trading so that would be 1780*(1.1) = 1958 [for sake of brevity, I just use 1.1, however if you calculate each day, it comes to 1965] so I put on Saturday TP 1958.

Now for Monday thru Saturday I give the increase or decrease of that trade for the day. Sometime I'm positioned so I just put 'In Position' for that day. It should look something like the following:

Sunday AB 1780
Monday 1816 ~2%
Tuesday In Position
Wednesday 1906 ~5% (good day)
Thursday 1925 ~1%
Friday 1982 ~3%
Saturday 1972 (if it's under 1% I don't bother giving a percent) I open another Saturday event and put: Week 1 - 1958 -> 1972 ~11%

Since your account balance is above your TP then put the new balance down for the following Sunday which would be AB 1972. Your TP now for the following Saturday is: TP 2169.

My target goals is 2% a day but if you are new, you should try 1% or .5% or something that works for you. My son uses ~5% per month and feels that fits his risk tolerance.

My goal is to eventually go to 3%.

If you don't have something like this or similar to it, your sail is just flapping in the wind.

Wish you well my friend.
Taigen Profit This Month: na
  • #46
  • Nov 19, 2011 11:35pm Nov 19, 2011 11:35pm
Quoting Taigen
That said, if you have a system of rules in place that work rather consistently, you need to set targets for yourself.

I use the google calendar:
Sunday is my account balance so I put AB 1780 (for example). The following Saturday I put my target price which is 2% per day based on 5 days trading so that would be 1780*(1.1) = 1958 [for sake of brevity, I just use 1.1, however if you calculate each day, it comes to 1965] so I put on Saturday TP 1958.

Now for Monday thru Saturday I give the increase or decrease of that trade for the day....
Thanks for this. What I realiesd is that I didn't have fixed daily and weekly goals apart from my trading plan. Now that I have a fixed trading plan and with your help a set of goals. I will see how next week goes. I realise how important goal setting is and keeping a journal.
  • #47
  • Nov 20, 2011 2:41am Nov 20, 2011 2:41am
Quoting moneydeep
Thanks for this. What I realiesd is that I didn't have fixed daily and weekly goals apart from my trading plan. Now that I have a fixed trading plan and with your help a set of goals. I will see how next week goes. I realise how important goal setting is and keeping a journal.
I don't want to confuse you, but I have found setting rigid goals to be counter-productive. What happens if you fall behind your daily or weekly goal? This can create additional stress, and lead to overtrading (taking inferior quality setups, or trades that don't conform with your plan) and overleveraging (risking too much of your account on a single trade), simply to 'catch up'. You can not control the market; you can only take the pips that your plan, constrained by the market, offers you.

Here is an excerpt from a post from a trader with 25+ years experience:

"Can this forum handle some truth? Note: this is not a negative post.

I've been trading for a living for many years. Using robust methods that have worked for decades, and I trust will continue for more decades.
........
All of the professional traders I know, whether they trade forex or futures markets, do not make "so much per day". That is a phrase used by marketers, because they know what beginners are looking for, and that is a steady income so they can get rid of their jobs. Money from the market that you can count on does not come steady or nicely "so much per day". Real traders make profits, budget their expenses, save some profits, add some profits to their accounts for further building of the account, etc. Just like any business, which is what real trading is.
.........
Quickly, name all your friends who have that going for them. A couple of great trades, or a month of great trades, or a year of great trades is nowhere near enough. To make 50 thousand-plus trades and be ahead, to be able to survive years of changing markets, politicians, governments, wives, ex-wives, good health, bad health--- while trading profitably is what you need from an edge.
........
I will tell the only way a trader is able to make $1,000,000 from trading. Here's an example of 10 thousand trades. Of these trades, you might lose on 6000 of them for small losses, win on 3800 of them for moderate profits, and win fairly big on 200 of them. You make your million from this series of trades by losing only $9 million on your total of losing trades while making $10 million dollars on your total of profitable trades. This means averaging $50 a trade per lot or contract (in the case of futures), which is really good after expenses. Very doable with robust methods. And, you have to stay on your game or you won't do this well.

But this is nothing like you've been promised by the "gurus" and promoters of the "money per day" foolishness."

Here is the whole post. Here is another very good post by a successful trader, explaining the requirements needed to be consistently profitable.


I disagree with Taigen's statement that demo trading is worthless. I use many demo accounts to forward test new strategies and ideas; and to find out what is profitable over a suitably large number of trades (500 is absolute minimum). For me, knowledge is king. If I don't have total confidence that a strategy works profitably, then I'll never be able to maintain discipline trading it live. Using demo in this way has probably saved me thousands of dollars; why risk blowing live accounts when I can test my ideas for free? But one obvious caveat: for demo to be effective, you must treat it seriously.

Taigen says that he aims for 2% per day. If we compound this over 250 trading days in a year, that's about a 14,000% pa ROE. Then he states that he will later aim for 3%. IMO that kind of metric is meaningless; it's possible to increase or reduce returns to any extent that you wish, by simply trading larger or smaller position sizes. What is key is the effect that this has on risk; risk management is arguably the most important area of trading.

Proven methodological edge + risk management + consistent execution = profit

That is the ABC of successful trading.
  • #48
  • Nov 20, 2011 3:39am Nov 20, 2011 3:39am
Quoting hanover
I don't want to confuse you, but I have found setting rigid goals to be counter-productive. What happens if you fall behind your daily or weekly goal? This can create additional stress, and lead to overtrading (taking inferior quality setups, or trades that don't conform with your plan) and overleveraging (risking too much of your account on a single trade), simply to 'catch up'. You can not control the market; you can only take the pips that your plan, constrained by the market, offers you.

Here is an excerpt from a post from a trader with...
Thanks for your input. It's funny because before I wrote that I was reading the same thing elsewhere that setting daily goals can be counter productive. What I have taken from it is. I have the goals in place just to see my pace.
I may make my goal for the day or may not but It keeps me in the right mindset to continue forward.
For example If I am aiming for 250 pips per week based on my system and after a couple weeks I see that I can only manage about 130. That then tells me that I should lower my probable pip amount.
  • #49
  • Nov 20, 2011 5:27am Nov 20, 2011 5:27am
Quoting moneydeep
Thanks for your input. It's funny because before I wrote that I was reading the same thing elsewhere that setting daily goals can be counter productive. What I have taken from it is. I have the goals in place just to see my pace.
I may make my goal for the day or may not but It keeps me in the right mindset to continue forward.
For example If I am aiming for 250 pips per week based on my system and after a couple weeks I see that I can only manage about 130. That then tells me that I should lower my probable pip amount.
I think you have failed to get the message. You cannot force the market into such a frame. What if these couple of weeks the market has been ranging. And the next couple of weeks you get a 500 pips per week cause it suddenly start trending.
In good times you should try getting every penny out of the market and in bad times you should try not to lose money (like in every other business). Expecting to make the same amount of pips every week no matter which market condition is either extremely foolish, or you are a trading genius.
  • #50
  • Nov 20, 2011 5:50am Nov 20, 2011 5:50am
Quoting Custos
I think you have failed to get the message. You cannot force the market into such a frame. What if these couple of weeks the market has been ranging. And the next couple of weeks you get a 500 pips per week cause it suddenly start trending.
In good times you should try getting every penny out of the market and in bad times you should try not to lose money (like in every other business). Expecting to make the same amount of pips every week no matter which market condition is either extremely foolish, or you are a trading genius.
I got your message loud and clear.
The goal is a goal not a limit. If you can't get your goal for a few weeks then it probably means you have set too high a goal for yourself. But if you see yourself achieving your goals that doesnt mean you stop trading.

For me the daily goals are like the light in the darkness, or a path. You make a target and if you dont reach it here and there its ok as long as its a reasonable target and you are on the right path.

You can later look back and see that ok last week was ranging thats why I didn't manage my goal or this week market was trending nicely so I managed to make 3 times my goal.

As I said the daily and weekly goals are just a path to tred on. ITs not that you have let yourself down because you failed your pip target last week. For me it keeps me focused.
  • #51
  • Edited 8:46am Nov 20, 2011 8:25am | Edited 8:46am
Quoting hanover
I don't want to confuse you, but I have found setting rigid goals to be counter-productive. What happens if you fall behind your daily or weekly goal?

"[color=Blue][i]Can this forum handle some truth? Note: this is not a negative post.


All of the professional traders I know, whether they trade forex or futures markets, do not make "so much per day". ....
........
I will tell the only way a trader is able to make $1,000,000 from trading. Here's an example of 10 thousand trades. .... This means averaging $50 a trade per lot or contract (in the case of futures), which is really good after expenses. Very doable with robust methods. And, you have to stay on your game or you won't do this well.

I disagree with Taigen's statement that demo trading is worthless. I use many demo accounts to forward test new strategies and ideas; and to find out what is profitable over a suitably large number of trades (500 is absolute minimum). For me, knowledge is king. .... But one obvious caveat: for demo to be effective, you must treat it seriously.

Taigen says that he aims for 2% per day. If we compound this over 250 trading days in a year, that's about a 14,000% pa ROE. Then he states that he will later aim for 3%. IMO that kind of metric is meaningless; ..... risk management is arguably the most important area of trading.
With all due respect to Hanover, the claim his investor friend excoriates as the, "...so much per day" crowd, he himself ends up doing the exact same thing. His timeline may be different but he ends up with the same overall average, which was "...$50 a trade per lot or contract...". That is no different from what I am doing whether you say "$50" per contract, "pips" per day/week/month, or using "percent" such as I do. It's an averaging of ability against a certain time frame. To use his own argument that 10 million gain versus 9 million lost is based on a time frame. There is no way of getting around it. If making a million is your goal, then I guess you could be working at it for 50-60 years based on his method. That is absurd.
Taigen Profit This Month: na
  • #52
  • Nov 20, 2011 8:45am Nov 20, 2011 8:45am
[quote=Taigen;5149936]
Quoting hanover
I don't want to confuse you, but I have found setting rigid goals to be counter-productive. What happens if you fall behind your daily or weekly goal? .....
Let me add...

If you fall behind your daily or weekly goal, all that means is you set your goals beyond your ability. There has to be a point somewhere in your trading where you consistently make a profit. If you are not there yet, you need to concentrate on your strategy. Since 'moneydeep' said he uses a strategy that works, I assumed that we could go beyond that and work on target goals.

For an investor to not have targets is just absurd. How do you measure yourself otherwise? You can't.

Some use demo account for testing. Ok, but I personally have little value in them and that is why I said you had to have 'skin' in the game. You should rather start with a small account, say $1000 or what ever and use pips with lot size of 1000 or 10cents a pip. So if you lose say 200 pips you are only out $20 and then it should be your goal on how to gain the $20 back.

2% per day is challenging but doable for me. Do I have losing days? Of course but do I have days where I make well over 30%? I do. Because I'm so cautious, I'm leave more on the table than I take.

You need to know where your success averages lay. Just like that investor who was content with $50 per contract in the futures market.

For example, my son would be content to earn 5% of a thousand dollars within a month timeframe. That would be $50. To me, at 2% per day, I would like to see at the end of the month $1485. Ambitious--yes. I usually exceed that.
Taigen Profit This Month: na
  • #53
  • Nov 20, 2011 9:16am Nov 20, 2011 9:16am
And that is SOOO true. Demo trading is good if you can take it seriously. You don't have to risk real money before you learn things like the market has its own rhythm, see that spreads are bigger during news/weekends, see that some trades will cost you swap if you keep them overnight, see that different pairs have different pip values, understand margin and so on. Plenty things you can learn with demo.

Quoting hanover
I disagree with Taigen's statement that demo trading is worthless. I use many demo accounts to forward test new strategies and ideas; and to find out what is profitable over a suitably large number of trades (500 is absolute minimum). For me, knowledge is king. If I don't have total confidence that a strategy works profitably, then I'll never be able to maintain discipline trading it live. Using demo in this way has probably saved me thousands of dollars; why risk blowing live accounts when I can test my ideas for free? But one obvious caveat: for...
forget about tomorrow, just steal away into the night
  • #54
  • Nov 20, 2011 9:58am Nov 20, 2011 9:58am
Hanover and Spekitox speak the truth...

...the rest is unfortunately exaggerated nonsense, I'm sorry.
Quoting Taigen
To me, at 2% per day.... Ambitious--yes. I usually exceed that.
Quoting Taigen
... but still I should be ending this month with a 51% increase.
Quoting Taigen
You are simply nuts. My guru even does this... But my son is doing this as well and is averaging 5% daily.
Quoting Taigen
The impulse of the market is reasonably obvious and if you are careful
it shouldn't be to hard to maintain a 20% to 50% account monthly increase.

A friend of mine starts a $2000 account every year and within a year turns it to a million.
Daily goals are silly.
Take the good trades and spend the screen time, that is all you can do.

The few times I have breached +40% per month, I soon "blown-up" spectacularly.
The risk is too high. (I scalp, 60-200 trades per month.)

If the OP makes the argument, "...just because you couldn't do it, doesn't mean that it isn't possible",
I invite them to post some stats on Trade Explorer or Myfxbook.com so we can analyze the risk and see the amazing consistency.
(3-4 months would suffice, perhaps 200+ trades?)
  • #55
  • Nov 20, 2011 10:07am Nov 20, 2011 10:07am

  1. change your wall paper to some quote or picture which reminds you not to be greedy
  2. meditate for five minutes before you see your charts.
  3. follow the stagy rules write it down and read it aloud everyday
  4. Talk to your self when you feel the greedyness entering you

  • #56
  • Nov 20, 2011 10:22am Nov 20, 2011 10:22am
Quoting Intu
Hanover and Spekitox speak the truth...

...the rest is unfortunately exaggerated nonsense, I'm sorry.

Daily goals are silly. ...
I don't know what planet you are from but daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly goals are important to anyone who values his or her time. If you take trading in a whimsical serendipitous manner, you will simply fail. You will have learned nothing.

If you do not have daily goals why bother getting on the computer. Regardless if you trade long term, short term, the trend, day trading, or even scalping, you have to have some kind of idea what you want to accomplish in your transaction that day.

Whether I make 2% in a day or not is not the question, it's an averaged out goal. Sometimes I will be positioned on Tuesday and won't get out until Saturday and while I'm in the position it is going against me. My daily goal still tells me roughly where I should be at.

If 2% is the problem or exaggerated, try 1% or 1/4 %, or try using pips say 1 pip a day for a total of 20 pips a month. What the hell ever your success average is--do it.

If I understand you correctly, you go out and trade. You make 200 pips, you lose 300 pips, you make 100 pips and so on? You have got to be kidding me. I simply don't believe you guys are for real.
Taigen Profit This Month: na
  • #57
  • Nov 20, 2011 10:26am Nov 20, 2011 10:26am
Quoting moneydeep
I have been trading live for a year now and I can not make money. Anytime I make money I end up giving it back to the market and more.

I have problems controlling my greed. When I see a good setup I will increase my risk factor a lot and when the trade goes against me my entire mindset changes. I feel very bad and depressed but the interesting thing is that I can come back the next day and put that behind me and be ready to trade again.

I have a system that works. I use elliott wave counts with vsa to stay on the right side of the market. I...

you need to learn to control your greed and fear otherwise you will never make it.

it doesnt matter how good a trading method you have, ulimately it is all down to psychology - controlling ones emotions, and money management. you will lose even with good trading systems if you cannot control these factors.

there are many things you can do to control your emotions, greed and fear. you may play psychological games with yourself and stick to the ones that work for you. an example would be , you consider trading as a 'job'. i..e just like you would go to an office and are told what to do, you do it. that is all thats required of you. you dont get your emotions involved. you just do what you are told. if your job was to take a milk bottle from place A to place B, you would do that. grab the milk bottle from place A , walk to place B, leave the milk bottle there. no need to get emotions involved is there ?
similarly with trading, you are told what to do, and you do it. say you are told to buy when ema 3 crosses ema 5, close when reverse occurs. well, thats all you do. you just do what you are told. like if you were doing a job. why get emotions involved.?

i know its easier said than done, but you must learn how to control it. as i said before psychological games to control your emotions often work. experiment and see what works for you. and just stick to the ones that work for you. sometimes it helps to take a break from trading, forget you ever traded, or that you actually dont ever want to trade again. then take a few days off. come back with a fresh open mind, and see how much clearer things become . you will see things in the right manner.


lastly, the importance of money management and not overtrading cannot be emphasised enough. this is crucial to making pips in the long run.


good luck..
  • #58
  • Nov 20, 2011 10:31am Nov 20, 2011 10:31am
Quoting Taigen
I don't know what planet you are from but daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly goals are important to anyone who values his or her time. If you take trading in a whimsical serendipitous manner, you will simply fail. You will have learned nothing.

If you do not have daily goals why bother getting on the computer. Regardless if you trade long term, short term, the trend, day trading, or even scalping, you have to have some kind of idea what you want to accomplish in your transaction that day.

Whether I make 2% in a day or not is not the question,...
what if you have an unprofitable year? Then those daily targets will make you go insane.

The daily target should be to execute a winning system over and over again no matter what the result (except if it starts to become a losing system).
  • #59
  • Nov 20, 2011 10:34am Nov 20, 2011 10:34am
Quoting whatfx
you need to learn to control your greed and fear otherwise you will never make it.

it doesnt matter how good a trading method you have, ulimately it is all down to psychology - controlling ones emotions, and money management. you will lose even with good trading systems if you cannot control these factors.

there are many things you can do to control your emotions, greed and fear. you may play psychological games with yourself and stick to the ones that work for you. an example would be , you consider trading as a 'job'. i..e just like you would...
overall good advice, but it gotta be emphasized that first you need a winning system, then everything you said applies.
If you got a losing system, then all that advice won't help to make you a winner.
  • #60
  • Edited 10:58am Nov 20, 2011 10:44am | Edited 10:58am
Quoting Intu
If the OP makes the argument, "...just because you couldn't do it, doesn't mean that it isn't possible",
I invite them to post some stats on Trade Explorer or Myfxbook.com so we can analyze the risk and see the amazing consistency.
(3-4 months would suffice, perhaps 200+ trades?)
I have no problem with that. As a matter of fact, I tried, however, my broker account (GFT) is doing maintenance so I am unable to access it. It also requires me to use MT4 which I have never used. But as soon as I can, I will reveal my account.

I've been doing this for about two years but I've been investing for around twenty years so I'm knowledgeable in some areas and not in others. I'm still learning a lot. I guess I'll never stop learning. I originally turned my 2k account to a 17k in a short amount of time. That was when the EURUSD was going down into the teens. I made gobs of money but I had no clue what I was doing. When it turned around I lost practically all of it and was down to $700. I stopped trading.

That is when I decided to learn from my mistakes, test my strategies, and develop some rules. I just recently began journaling which has helped me tremendously.

I have a friend who trades consistently 100 pips a day (he goes by pips). He now told me he's been averaging up to 105 pips a day. I have been consistent with 2% a day for two months now and inconsistently for about 10 months. Yes that is a very short time, so time will tell whether I can keep this up. If I can't all that says is my percentages are too high. Nothing more.
Taigen Profit This Month: na
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