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I fail again and again and bite the dust

  • #1
  • First Post: Nov 9, 2011 9:50pm Nov 9, 2011 9:50pm
I have been trading live for a year now and I can not make money. Anytime I make money I end up giving it back to the market and more.

I have problems controlling my greed. When I see a good setup I will increase my risk factor a lot and when the trade goes against me my entire mindset changes. I feel very bad and depressed but the interesting thing is that I can come back the next day and put that behind me and be ready to trade again.

I have a system that works. I use elliott wave counts with vsa to stay on the right side of the market. I like to stay in a trade 1 week or more depending on the counts. What goes wrong though is that when there Is a retracement I want to enter that and trade it too. I get greedy and risk more than I can handle.

I still haven't blown my account but I have put more money in. Is it just me or are there others out there who have been through this phase and can help me?
Do I need a mentor? I sometimes think it will help.
The interesting thing is that I am a person who will follow rules when there is someone there to punish me if I don't and since in fx trading we are our own bosses I am finding it very difficult to control my greed and my emotions.

I have read Mark Douglas books but when it comes to trading everything flies out of my head. I intake better information through audio visual methods rather than reading books. And I have realised that discipline is not something one can master just by reading books. (atleast not me)

There have been many a occasion when I have thought of just quitting. I know I am a good analyst. Even my friends say so. But when it comes to trading I screw up.

I am asking very sincerely if there are others there who have been through this and are willing to guide me in the right path.
  • #2
  • Nov 9, 2011 10:43pm Nov 9, 2011 10:43pm
Your post will strike a chord with most traders here, novice and experienced. Greed and the fear of losing potential profits (closing trades early) is something you have to find a way to overcome in order to become consistenetly profitable.

FWIW I would not have survived had I not forced myself to devise a mechanical way to trade the markets. It took me years and tens of 1000's of hours to crack it, you cannot avoid it you will have to condition yourself to stop being greedy, do whatever it takes.

I hate to be harsh but a year at this is nothing, many take 3,5,10 years and some never crack it, keep at it.

Good luck.
  • #3
  • Nov 10, 2011 12:11am Nov 10, 2011 12:11am
Quoting moneydeep
I have been trading live for a year now and I can not make money. Anytime I make money I end up giving it back to the market and more.

I have problems controlling my greed. When I see a good setup I will increase my risk factor a lot and when the trade goes against me my entire mindset changes. I feel very bad and depressed but the interesting thing is that I can come back the next day and put that behind me and be ready to trade again.

I have a system that works. I use elliott wave counts with vsa to stay on the right side of the market. I like...
Hello moneydeep,

You are on the same road we all have traveled. Some crash and burn never to be heard from again while some still hang around searching for the Holy Grail. Only a few reach a point of profitability over the long term and a few of those trade only for peanuts.

Trading long term is the easiest but if you are trading the counter to the trend trades and losing then I would say you are trading a system that is flawed. The counter to the trend trades can kill a new traders account as this takes experience as well as a good system. I suggest clearing your chart of all indicators except a volume indicator and then learn support and resistance. Start on a demo first.

This link to "Trading with Deadly Accuracy" would be a good start http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=206723

Support and resistance which should be the basis of every trading system. Once learned any system can be traded profitably.

Once you have a good system your confidence level will rise to the point that making a trade is just a business decision. Your entries and exits will be well defined. Gambling becomes a thing of the past as every trade becomes second nature.

Your trading style now is like when you first started riding a bike when you were a child. As you learned you could ride without the faintest thought or fear. You need to get to the same level in trading. It won't be easy but nothing truly worthwhile ever is easy. You are the one who needs to ask yourself "Do I want it bad enough to invest the time?"

You seem to trade like a gambler which has no place here. You must understand trading to the finite point to trade like the best of the best. There are profitable ways to trade without all the education like momentum trading the market opens.

The problem with all of the systems here on FF is that they take you to the point of entering a trade and then you're on your own to exit. Risk and reward and stoploss use usually aren't discussed.

Have a good journey,

Johnny
  • #4
  • Nov 10, 2011 12:29am Nov 10, 2011 12:29am
Thanks johnny

I know its not my system that is flawed. It works fine but I get greedy and want more so its my greed which is a hindrance for my advancement.
  • #5
  • Nov 10, 2011 1:21am Nov 10, 2011 1:21am
I think every trader went through this.

Do you got a written trading plan ?
It was a big deal to me and changed my trading a lot, writing down all rules and more important goals that i want to achive.

The thing which hindered me the most was pulling the trigger on every single trade.
I looked at my goals and thought, if i don't pull the trigger i will never get to these things, so i wrote my goals on paper again with the headline saying exactly this.

Read this every day before and after your trading session.


You say you got no boss in trading ? I think this is false because everytime i don't follow my rules, my boss Mr. Market slaps me twice, he takes my money and makes me feel bad.
Luckily that doesn't happen too often no more...

This is your first year in this ? Plan at least 2 more for learning/getting the grip, get a job and save some money for when u can trade consistently with low money/low lots and you have the confidence, you should slowly increase.


To learn discipline i started to work out regularly, which did it for me.

On Mark Douglas, consider this http://www.trading-naked.com/MD.htm

All the best.
Never whishing, always trading.
  • #6
  • Edited 4:47am Nov 10, 2011 1:33am | Edited 4:47am
Quoting moneydeep
Thanks johnny

I know its not my system that is flawed. It works fine but I get greedy and want more so its my greed which is a hindrance for my advancement.

There is nothing unusual about your experience because a lot of traders here have passed through similar experience. Forex trading requires careful planning a large dose of discipline to execute the plans. Handle your trading like a business and not gambling and you will eliminate your greed

In forex timing is everything. The critical times are the time to BUY, SELL, WAIT AND TAKE PROFIT/CUT YOUR LOSSES.

You need to develop the mindset of successful trader. I developed something which has worked for me and others I am very happy to share it with you here.

The logic is simple "Trade the direction of the weekly and you will never lose your way". Furthermore, "trading forex is marathon and not 100-metre dash". This simple logic has changed my trading for ever.


Read the link below for my view on the mindset of a successful trader. Try it and let me know if it works for you.

I wish you all the best!

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...31#post5025831
  • #7
  • Nov 10, 2011 2:05am Nov 10, 2011 2:05am
Quoting moneydeep
Thanks johnny

I know its not my system that is flawed. It works fine but I get greedy and want more so its my greed which is a hindrance for my advancement.
It must be just you then. Well that's real easy to fix.

1. Get your self an electric socket with a cord at your local hardware store.

2. Plug this cord into a wall socket after testing with a light bulb.

3. Remove the light bulb after testing leaving the switch to the "on" position.

4. The next time you take a high risk trade and lose stick your finger in the socket for thirty seconds.

5. If this fails to stop your greed after three tries take part of the money in your account and buy one of those prepaid funeral plans. After three more tries remove all guns and sharp knives from your home. After three more tries and your wife doesn't kill you first admit your self into the Nut House.

Just to repeat some things from my last post and add a few more.

A good trading system will provide a good entry and a good exit. Along with this good trading system is a good plan. If your trading system is so good then you must be trading without a plan.

You might consider asking yourself these questions:
Do you trade without a plan? Do you trade without a stoploss? Do you have suicidal thoughts? Do you go on vacations to countries in a war zone and only buy one way tickets? Does your retirement plan consists of only future lottery ticket winnings?

A yes to any one of those questions would make me question your trading skills.

Johnny
  • #8
  • Nov 10, 2011 2:13am Nov 10, 2011 2:13am
Took me the better part of a decade. Think I am one of the slower ones but a year is nothing. You have a long road ahead of you, but it will be worth it in the end.

Good luck!
  • #9
  • Nov 10, 2011 2:33am Nov 10, 2011 2:33am
Thanks everyone for being so helpful.
It is true I used to write down every trade and then somewhere along the way stopped and gave up. I should go back to that.

Whenever i take a hit and realise what I did wrong I note it in my head. What I should be doing is writing them down so that I have a checklist which I can tick off before entering each trade.
  • #10
  • Nov 10, 2011 2:58am Nov 10, 2011 2:58am
my experience is greed/fear is a sign that you haven't developed your exit strategies for wins/losses well enough. Get that more structured so it's not too subjective that you allow your emotions to get in the way

my 2 cents.
  • #11
  • Nov 10, 2011 12:37pm Nov 10, 2011 12:37pm
Quoting moneydeep

I have a system that works. I use elliott wave counts with vsa to stay on the right side of the market. I like to stay in a trade 1 week or more depending on the counts. What goes wrong though is that when there Is a retracement I want to enter that and trade it too. I get greedy and risk more than I can handle.
Funny, you identified the problem, you problably know how to fix it (by not increasing lot-size and not entering during retracements) but you don't do it. That's what I call self-destructing behavior. Be glad to know the problem, most don't even know why they are losing.
  • #12
  • Nov 10, 2011 9:16pm Nov 10, 2011 9:16pm
Quoting Custos
Funny, you identified the problem, you problably know how to fix it (by not increasing lot-size and not entering during retracements) but you don't do it. That's what I call self-destructing behavior. Be glad to know the problem, most don't even know why they are losing.
Yes you got it spot on. I know what my problem is. And I know also that every setback I get I don't give up. I guess for me its learning by taking enough hits. I guess I learn very slowly with every setback

As I said earlier I get really depressed after heavy losses. But my mindset is all fresh and ready to go the next day. I'm guessing this is a good thing.
  • #13
  • Nov 10, 2011 10:12pm Nov 10, 2011 10:12pm
Quoting moneydeep
I have been trading live for a year now and I can not make money. Anytime I make money I end up giving it back to the market and more.

I have problems controlling my greed. When I see a good setup I will increase my risk factor a lot and when the trade goes against me my entire mindset changes. I feel very bad and depressed but the interesting thing is that I can come back the next day and put that behind me and be ready to trade again.

I have a system that works. I use elliott wave counts with vsa to stay on the right side of the market....
I have blow up more then 35 accounts

but thankfully I always started with 100$ not more then that

and yes GREED is the worst nightmare for a trader,and also discipline,now I know why 95% trader fails.

even simple trendline system will work in this market,but we need patience and controlled greed to make money in this market.
Trade responsiblypatience is the key/Swing trader
  • #14
  • Nov 10, 2011 10:19pm Nov 10, 2011 10:19pm
It is such a tragedy that we HUMANS get stucked by our own emotions.
Trade responsiblypatience is the key/Swing trader
  • #15
  • Nov 11, 2011 1:59am Nov 11, 2011 1:59am
Quoting moneydeep
I have been trading live for a year now and I can not make money. Anytime I make money I end up giving it back to the market and more.

I have problems controlling my greed. When I see a good setup I will increase my risk factor a lot and when the trade goes against me my entire mindset changes. I feel very bad and depressed but the interesting thing is that I can come back the next day and put that behind me and be ready to trade again.

I have a system that works. I use elliott wave counts with vsa to stay on the right side of the market. I like...
Ive been through it. I'd had more winners than losers and i still either broke even or the gain was small. over looking my excel sheet i saw where the problem was coming from. Over Leverage. The problem is thinking that your money will grow faster if the trade you increase position size is a winner, which is true but once you hit a trade or two that dont work out, your past winners are over shadowed by the bigger losses and the reason you feel nervous when the trade goes against you just a little bit is because you know in the back of your mind that if you have to close the trade out early at a loss or it hits your stop, your account is going to take a hit that shouldnt have happened. I mean my trading style brings in alot more winners and i usually hit 200 - 400 pips on my trades, my stops are 100 pips, how the F can i still be breaking even on some months? i was doing the same thing your doing now. Winning trade after winning trade with proper risk and lot size, i see a trade that i "feel" looks good, i enter with a larger position and my stop gets hit, now the account has taken a step back it shouldnt have to and round and round we go until you break that curse.

Stop with the mindset that adding lots will increase your capital faster because the opposite is true. If your trading method is profitable, the winners will out run the losers. you need to control your lot size so when the losers do happen then your account can absorb the hits and then nail the winning trades etc. My analogy is this...

We have a road in front of us thats bumpy, rocks and mud in the road with, dust and curves. You can pick the ferrari or a Tank, yeah the ferrari is sexy and fast but on that F'ked up road conditions, your bound to lose control and crash. A tank can get through all that stuff because its built solid. meaning build your self as a tank solid trader. A winning simple Trading method, Discipline to control risk, and a strong mindset to continue despite a few losses. In my opinion the 2 biggest and most dangerous trading killers is Over Leverage and Over trading. these things cannot be taught in a book or a forum because they come from within.
"The market doesn't beat them, they beat themselves" - J. Livermore
  • #16
  • Nov 13, 2011 12:26pm Nov 13, 2011 12:26pm
Quoting moneydeep
Thanks johnny

I know its not my system that is flawed. It works fine but I get greedy and want more so its my greed which is a hindrance for my advancement.
I've read your OP and it has a very wide appeal that nearly everyone here can relate to. But let's back up a minute... how did you verify your system has no flaws? What sort of testing have you done? I ask because I think many traders have NO CLUE whether their system is TRULY viable or not.

If you tested a specific set of rules and found it to be profitable (something we can put to further test once you confirm), but you are not sticking to the same rule-set you tested, then you simply have a self-control problem. You are the only one who can change that. You will have to find some motivational factor that will convince your inner self that to follow your rules is of FAR greater benefit than NOT following your rules. You must positively teach yourself inside that to operate under self-discipline is better than having no limits to your trading...shooting from the hip. But you also must teach the negative side...that penalties are HARSH for failing to self-govern.

So, again...how did you arrive at this self-proclaimed conclusion that your system is not at fault? Once we know that, we may have some information to move forward in getting at the ROOT of the problem.
  • #17
  • Edited 1:27pm Nov 13, 2011 1:18pm | Edited 1:27pm
Quoting moneydeep
I have been trading live for a year now and I can not make money. Anytime I make money I end up giving it back to the market and more.
Why on earth are you trading LIVE then? There is no reason to provide liquidity for the winners (although I'm sure they are happy you do) while you are still clearly in learning mode.

Quoting moneydeep
I have problems controlling my greed. When I see a good setup I will increase my risk factor a lot and when the trade goes against me my entire mindset changes. I feel very bad and depressed but the interesting thing is that I can come back the next day and put that behind me and be ready to trade again.
Ok, so you are able to shrug off the negative feelings of your lack of self-discipline. That's a plus, but why keep throwing yourself under the bus with real money, causing more and more negative baggage to build up in your psyche? Go back to demo trading like pros do when they are not "in the zone". Aside from that, is increasing your risk part of the money management parameters you originally tested with your system? If not, then WHY are you doing that? Leverage is KRYPTONITE, Superman! It magnifies the effects of stupid mistakes and lack of self-control in your equity before you ever give it a fighting chance to help magnify your equity itself.

Quoting moneydeep
I have a system that works. I use elliott wave counts with vsa to stay on the right side of the market. I like to stay in a trade 1 week or more depending on the counts. What goes wrong though is that when there Is a retracement I want to enter that and trade it too. I get greedy and risk more than I can handle.
I addressed this in my previous post, but it is worth addressing again. How do you KNOW your system works? Was it tested with specific, fixed money management parameters? It's really pretty simple...if you KNOW a certain system works with specific rules, then TRADE IT because your testing allows you to TRUST IT. If you can't trust it, then you end up shooting from the hip...and you crash and burn. Simple math.

Quoting moneydeep
I still haven't blown my account but I have put more money in.
You're just fooling yourself here. If you hadn't put in more money...would you have blown it? If the answer is YES, then you really DID blow your account...face it and take steps to correct this cycle. Unless, of course, you have an unlimited supply of cash you can keep putting into your account....we'd love that!

Quoting moneydeep
Is it just me or are there others out there who have been through this phase and can help me?
Do I need a mentor? I sometimes think it will help.
The interesting thing is that I am a person who will follow rules when there is someone there to punish me if I don't and since in fx trading we are our own bosses I am finding it very difficult to control my greed and my emotions.
It is an amazing phenomenon for sure...we can do exactly what our bosses tell us at a J.O.B., but can't seem to find sufficient motivation to stick to a simple set of self-imposed A,B,C trading rules when we're all alone with no supervision. No, you are not a Lone Ranger here. I've been there and still have to fight the temptation to tweak my system occasionally. It's a constant vigil which takes repetition and force of will. I don't have the luxury of affording a personal trading mentor, so I can't help you there. I would think it may be of help to you, but don't look to a mentor to solve ALL your issues. Do what you can do for yourself first.

Quoting moneydeep
I have read Mark Douglas books but when it comes to trading everything flies out of my head. I intake better information through audio visual methods rather than reading books. And I have realised that discipline is not something one can master just by reading books. (atleast not me)
Then perhaps you would do better to purchase some DVD's from a mentoring source that is focused on developing self-discipline for traders. Unfortunately, I can't recommend any, perhaps someone else can. Mark Douglas' material is generally good, although I don't like some of his methods. His insight into the problems traders face psychologically is pretty much spot on though.

Quoting moneydeep
There have been many a occasion when I have thought of just quitting. I know I am a good analyst. Even my friends say so. But when it comes to trading I screw up.
Quitting is a personal decision that only you can make. Quitting merely because you can't overcome your reasons for failing to self-govern will likely just carry over into other areas of your life. It will carry emotional baggage similar to that created by your failure to gain control of your unreasonable behavior.

Quoting moneydeep
I am asking very sincerely if there are others there who have been through this and are willing to guide me in the right path.
If you can answer the questions in my previous post, we might have a better idea of how to help.
  • #18
  • Nov 14, 2011 1:36am Nov 14, 2011 1:36am
Quoting Pipskateer
Why on earth are you trading LIVE then? There is no reason to provide liquidity for the winners (although I'm sure they are happy you do) while you are still clearly in learning mode.
I have traded demo too. Its interesting that in demo I make lots of money and trade more relaxed because emotions are not there. It's in live that greed takes a hold of me and I start over leveraging.

Quote
I addressed this in my previous post, but it is worth addressing again. How do you KNOW your system works? Was it tested with specific, fixed money management parameters? It's really pretty simple...if you KNOW a certain system works with specific rules, then TRADE IT because your testing allows you to TRUST IT. If you can't trust it, then you end up shooting from the hip...and you crash and burn. Simple math.
My system is mostly counting waves and trading according to the wave counts. What I don't have and others have pointed out is a Trade plan. I am currently working on creating a trading plan. Because I enter the right trades but at the wrong times.

Quote
It is an amazing phenomenon for sure...we can do exactly what our bosses tell us at a J.O.B., but can't seem to find sufficient motivation to stick to a simple set of self-imposed A,B,C trading rules when we're all alone with no supervision. No, you are not a Lone Ranger here. I've been there and still have to fight the temptation to tweak my system occasionally. It's a constant vigil which takes repetition and force of will. I don't have the luxury of affording a personal trading mentor, so I can't help you there. I would think it may be of...

I have an older friend of mine and he has agreed to help me with my discipline and keep tabs on my trades untill I can build that stone cold discipline.


Quote
Then perhaps you would do better to purchase some DVD's from a mentoring source that is focused on developing self-discipline for traders. Unfortunately, I can't recommend any, perhaps someone else can. Mark Douglas' material is generally good, although I don't like some of his methods. His insight into the problems traders face psychologically is pretty much spot on though.
Yes I have read mark douglass' books. But as I sai earlier I sustain more info if its in an audio-visual form. I have recently gotten my hands on Mark Doughlas mental toughness videos. I'm going through them.


Quote
Quitting is a personal decision that only you can make. Quitting merely because you can't overcome your reasons for failing to self-govern will likely just carry over into other areas of your life. It will carry emotional baggage similar to that created by your failure to gain control of your unreasonable behavior.

Thanks for this. When I set my mind to something I generally keep beating at it untill I get it. I will continue down this trading path. That is something I have decided very clearly.

Quote
If you tested a specific set of rules and found it to be profitable (something we can put to further test once you confirm), but you are not sticking to the same rule-set you tested, then you simply have a self-control problem. You are the only one who can change that. You will have to find some motivational factor that will convince your inner self that to follow your rules is of FAR greater benefit than NOT following your rules. You must positively teach yourself inside that to operate under self-discipline is better than having no limits to your trading...shooting from the hip. But you also must teach the negative side...that penalties are HARSH for failing to self-govern.

Yes it goes back to the same point. For some reason I don't stick to the rules. It's not that I don't want to. Its just I have rules- I decide I Will follow them- then after a while I realize I'm trading disregarding those rules- and I realize how the hell did I get here. Thanks for this point. I don't know how but I will have to teach myself to operate under self discipline.
  • #19
  • Nov 14, 2011 2:09pm Nov 14, 2011 2:09pm
Thank you for your very candid answers. However, you failed to address the most important question I asked. How do you KNOW your system is not flawed? I submit to you, in absence of your answer, that a trader cannot know their system is profitable unless it has been thoroughly tested under fixed money management parameters. The rules must be written down and executed properly. You cannot make a system profitable through money management, but unless you isolate the variables using a known profitable configuration and THEN test your system...you cannot know for sure.

This comes back to all the folks who only speak of the high Win/Loss ratio of their favorite system, but who then fail to realize they are trading with such poor and diluted R/R values that their Win/Loss can't compensate.

The disparity between your demo testing and your live trading is not uncommon. Everyone experiences that. It is my personal belief that you must condition yourself and transition from demo to live on an incremental basis. Some traders will tell you that ALL trading should be done LIVE with very light leverage, but I generally disagree with that notion. Demo testing has a valid place in the process. I demo test merely to make sure I can execute my rules during initial system development. I see no need to spend money on pure system testing. Before I move to small leverage LIVE testing, I make sure that I have a written set of very specific rules. If you don't have written rules, then you are giving yourself far too much latitude. Don't give yourself enough room to hang yourself. It's all about self-control. You either have it or you don't. If you don't, then figure out how to get it or don't trade.

Not having a written set of trading rules which covers every conceivable facet of your trading activity only serves one purpose...it allows you the <false> "freedom" to trade from the hip, which, ironically, empowers the demons of Greed, Fear, Revenge, Euphoria, Panic, and all their nasty offspring an opportunity to swiftly enslave you.

So again, how do you KNOW your system is actually profitable? Over how many trades of back-testing? What MM criteria was used in your testing? If trade rules and money management parameters are not fixed, then how can you rely on your testing? And finally, if you DO manage to gather valid testing results with fixed testing parameters...of what good are those results if your forward trading does not adhere to what you tested because you are deviating from your plan?
  • #20
  • Nov 14, 2011 2:35pm Nov 14, 2011 2:35pm
Quoting Pipskateer
Thank you for your very candid answers. However, you failed to address the most important question I asked. How do you KNOW your system is not flawed? I submit to you, in absence of your answer, that a trader cannot know their system is profitable unless it has been thoroughly tested under fixed money management parameters. The rules must be written down and executed properly. You cannot make a system profitable through money management, but unless you isolate the variables using a known profitable configuration and THEN test your system...you cannot...
Very nice post, thanks
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