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UK non dealing desk spread bet broker?

  • #1
  • First Post: Edited 5:27pm Sep 24, 2011 4:13pm | Edited 5:27pm
I am currently with Capital Spreads and while execution has been instant for most of my time because of the small size and the fact they would just automatically take the other side of the trade knowing i will probably lose.

However now that I have been more successful over the last month, and my trade size has increased, my trades are now increasingly going via the dealing desk instead and I commonly wait 5 seconds for execution, and even up to 40 seconds on one ftse trade at london open on tuesday (by which time I was conveniently 15 points down). Also conveniently (for them) I have noticed that while waiting for execution, if the price has moved in my favour, i get rejected, if the price has moved against me, it gets happily executed several seconds later. Not impressed. I just want instant execution regardless or my trade size or winning streak and I am only going ot get that with NDD.

I am trying to find a UK spread betting broker that has no dealing desk execution and the ability to trade fx, ftse futures, s+p futures and commodities (i could live without commodities if i had to but not the others). Does anyone know of any? I havent yet been able to find even one. IG Index seems to suggest 99.6% of their trades are executed with 'no human intervention within 0.1 seconds' but not sure I trust that.

thanks
  • #2
  • Sep 25, 2011 3:40am Sep 25, 2011 3:40am
Maybe Prospreads? You will have to pay a commission though.
  • #3
  • Sep 25, 2011 4:56am Sep 25, 2011 4:56am
http://www.fxcm.co.uk/forex-spread-betting.jsp
  • #4
  • Sep 25, 2011 11:21am Sep 25, 2011 11:21am
Quoting Forex5050
http://www.fxcm.co.uk/forex-spread-betting.jsp
very unsure about them and their spreads are crap (2.7 pips on eurusd typical spread lol and they claim non dealing desk HELPS spreads, I cant even remember the last time I saw eurusd with that kinda spread)

they also show a minimum stop distance on SPX500 of 20 points?!?!?! jeeeeeeeeeeeesus 20 points??!?! aside from the recent volatility, 20 points was an entire days movement!

I am looking at IG Index at the moment, they dont state no dealing desk but do state 99.6% of all trades have no human interaction at all which is basically the same thing then, and their spreads are better than fxcm although not as good as capital spreads (although they do some very odd things with indices and futures on IG).
  • #5
  • Sep 25, 2011 12:25pm Sep 25, 2011 12:25pm
use pending orders?
  • #6
  • Sep 25, 2011 2:17pm Sep 25, 2011 2:17pm
Quoting darrenlittle
use pending orders?
thanks that helps a lot.
  • #7
  • Sep 25, 2011 4:29pm Sep 25, 2011 4:29pm
Quoting ewokuk
very unsure about them and their spreads are crap (2.7 pips on eurusd typical spread lol and they claim non dealing desk HELPS spreads, I cant even remember the last time I saw eurusd with that kinda spread)

they also show a minimum stop distance on SPX500 of 20 points?!?!?! jeeeeeeeeeeeesus 20 points??!?! aside from the recent volatility, 20 points was an entire days movement!

I am looking at IG Index at the moment, they dont state no dealing desk but do state 99.6% of all trades have no human interaction at all which is basically the same...
my first account (apart from share dealing) was with IG.

CAnt say i use it much anymore, but the platform was quite good, but cant comment/ remember about re-quotes.

They offer 2 types of account-

Limited risk- pay a premium for guaranteed stops i think its 5 pip eur/usd.

Plus (i think) - decent spreads, but you much prove your income I think before they will give you one. I never bothered upgrading.

I also had/have an account with shorts and longs, they opened it with no questioned asked and I was trading in 10 min! Platform is a bit like capital spreads if i remember (i had a demo with them- way back in the day!) spreads were ok, but I think they have widened them in the past month or so after things got volatile. also note that their markets are NOT open over night.
  • #8
  • Sep 26, 2011 6:40am Sep 26, 2011 6:40am
What about MF Global UK ?
~~ Happy Trading ~~
  • #9
  • Sep 26, 2011 1:35pm Sep 26, 2011 1:35pm
Quoting ewokuk
they also show a minimum stop distance on SPX500 of 20 points?!?!?! jeeeeeeeeeeeesus 20 points??!?! aside from the recent volatility, 20 points was an entire days movement!
Hi ewokuk,

FXCM’s minimum stop distance is 2 points for SPX500, and I’m see a 2 pip minimum stop distance on my side when creating the stop loss order. Can you re-check your account to see if this is 2 pips rather than 20? If this is not the case, I would be happy to check on your account if you can send me a private message with details.

The spreads on FXCM’s NDD forex execution are variable since the pricing engine receives prices from 10+ liquidity providers and then displays the best bid/ask with our pip mark-up. The spreads can narrow as pricing becomes more competitive or widen as the market becomes illiquid and more volatile.

While spreads are important, I would consider being able to actually execute trades at those spreads (and especially while profitable) just as important. FXCM UK offers no re-quote spread betting so you will not run into the problems you are describing when you become profitable. If you want to test trading on an a live account with FXCM’s money you can sign up for a free account using this promotion: http://www.fxcm.co.uk/lp-free-micro-account-cnbc-ja.jsp.


- Jason
  • #10
  • Sep 27, 2011 10:40am Sep 27, 2011 10:40am
I am with ig. You will have exactly the same problems. I could not have written it better the way you describe exactly the same problems I have with IG.

All market makers do not want to lose money like you and I don't; so they screw you, with price no longer available etc, in the history of over 1000+ trades I have never had price no longer available on a losing bet; what they do sometimes to appear as if they are not often cheating you, they sometimes give you a price improver of a few pips.
  • #11
  • Sep 27, 2011 2:20pm Sep 27, 2011 2:20pm
I dont have an account this is all info from your webpage!

had a look at that promotion link, seems to be a £50 live account. possibly useful for testing out the platform itself but of no use what so ever in testing execution as trade size will be tiny. What I want is instant execution when I get to the point of trading say £50 or £100 per pip/point.

regarding your spreads, your 'typical' spread on eurusd says 2.7 pips, and I know enough to know that a typical spread of 2.7 pips is a very large markup indeed on top of what those 10 banks will provide to you (I have seen first hand the kind of spreads that are available). so the starting point of 2.7 is already high, and then its variable on top of that! I trade a 1 point FIXED spread on eurusd and a few other pairs like usdjpy with capital spreads, and even IG index typical spread is 1.64 pips with an absolute maximum of 6 pips (fxcm appear to have no maximum so I worry about Oanda type spreads of 20+ pips on news events!).

and here is the page on your website stating spx is a 20 point minimum stop - see the table on page 3 (which I suspected was wrong but if so then thats a big mistake!).

Quoting Jason Rogers
Hi ewokuk,

FXCM’s minimum stop distance is 2 points for SPX500, and I’m see a 2 pip minimum stop distance on my side when creating the stop loss order. Can you re-check your account to see if this is 2 pips rather than 20? If this is not the case, I would be happy to check on your account if you can send me a private message with details.

The spreads on FXCM’s NDD forex execution are variable since the pricing engine receives prices from 10+ liquidity providers and then displays the best bid/ask with our pip mark-up. The spreads can narrow...
  • #12
  • Sep 27, 2011 2:21pm Sep 27, 2011 2:21pm
Quoting Trader614
I am with ig. You will have exactly the same problems. I could not have written it better the way you describe exactly the same problems I have with IG.

All market makers do not want to lose money like you and I don't; so they screw you, with price no longer available etc, in the history of over 1000+ trades I have never had price no longer available on a losing bet; what they do sometimes to appear as if they are not often cheating you, they sometimes give you a price improver of a few pips.
i suspected IG may end up similar but had thought i may be able to trade a bit bigger size before it starts than with capital spreads.
  • #13
  • Sep 27, 2011 3:58pm Sep 27, 2011 3:58pm
If I trade over £2 a pip you start having problems.
  • #14
  • Sep 28, 2011 3:00am Sep 28, 2011 3:00am
Quoting Trader614
If I trade over £2 a pip you start having problems.
so much for their claims of "99.6% of trades executed within a tenth of a second and with no human intervention". could be done for false advertising then, unless there is small print somewhere that states this only applies to trades of less than 1 penny in size

I may have a look at fxcm spread betting NDD account if anyone has any experience of them
  • #15
  • Sep 28, 2011 12:28pm Sep 28, 2011 12:28pm
Quoting ewokuk
and here is the page on your website stating spx is a 20 point minimum stop - see the table on page 3 (which I suspected was wrong but if so then thats a big mistake!).
Thanks ewokuk. That page says the minimum stop distance for SPX500 is 2.0 but the font is too small, I can hardly make it out. I will have it changed to say "2" and will ask to change the font size. Appreciate it.

Quoting ewokuk
What I want is instant execution when I get to the point of trading say £50 or £100 per pip/point.
I think you are right to want quality execution, and quality of execution is just as important as the spreads you’re trading on. I can see how advertisements about 1 pip spreads could be enticing from a marketing perspective, but you can read trader’s experiences in other threads or this thread, and the problems they can often encounter. We often hear also about it from traders that move over from our competitors.

With FXCM’s NDD forex execution, there are no re-quotes and no dealer referral. These are all tools a market maker uses to manage their risk and often times used to the disadvantage of the trader. A market maker (dealing desk broker) with this type of marketing can give up the spread while counting on making it back through the traders losing positions.

You won’t run into these problems with FXCM’s NDD forex execution because we’re not making the market for forex transactions. For pricing, we mark up our spreads about 1 pip and that's the way we make money.

If slippage is something that concerns you, I would recommend using the At Best vs. Market Range controls to limit slippage depending on your preferences. We’re planning an update for the FX Trading Station II platform this month that will give our traders even more control over slippage by allowing you to customize the market range amount down to as low as a fraction of a pip.

Appreciate the feedback and best of luck trading!

-Jason
  • #16
  • Sep 28, 2011 4:30pm Sep 28, 2011 4:30pm
Check out the info on the lawsuits against FXCM
http://www.forexpeacearmy.com/public...w/www.fxcm.com
  • #17
  • Edited 4:50pm Sep 28, 2011 4:38pm | Edited 4:50pm
Quoting Jason Rogers
That page says the minimum stop distance for SPX500 is 2.0 but the font is too small, I can hardly make it out. I will have it changed to say "2" and will ask to change the font size.

You won’t run into these problems with FXCM’s NDD forex execution because we’re not making the market for forex transactions. For pricing, we mark up our spreads about 1 pip and that's the way we make money.

If slippage is something that concerns you, I would recommend using the At Best vs. Market Range controls to limit slippage depending on your preferences....
ummm, not sure what you are looking at but there is NO decimal between the 2 and the 0, it very clearly says 20 not 2.0 (and has done for well over a year as this file is dated June 2010). The swe30 further down clearly shows 2.0, using exactly the same font and font size. Seriously, how you can claim it says 2.0 I dont know

Also how does non-forex work, I trade a lot of ftse100 and SPX but there isnt much info on how these are executed.

as for slippage, I WASNT particularly concerned, but I am now you mention the need for specific controls to try and limit it, which tells me slippage is likely an issue and I shouldnt expect anything like instant (say <0.25secs) execution. and if thats the case its not much better than a broker that goes via a dealer, perhaps not specifically working against me as much, but I probably have more slippage and im paying much higher spreads for the privilege on top. In addition to that all this, 'no requotes' is not as good as it sounds because based on past experience, what I expect to get is a nice chunk of slippage instead, and if I then choose to use these slippage controls I will effectively be getting requotes, since outside the very tight tolerance I would be setting the trade is obviously not executed...... equivalent to a requote. Its either that or accept the slippage on top of the already higher spreads, which kinda defeats a big chunk of the entire point in the first place.

In which case, I cant win either way. Stay with a market maker where the trades may often go via a dealer past a certain size but at least get good spreads on everything, or go with a NDD/ECN type broker where I am probably likely to get slippage on top of the increased spreads because its trying to match up my order with an opposing one going the other way (and hence delays/slippage/not executed). hmmmm there may actually not be a single good broker out there for retail traders lol
  • #18
  • Sep 29, 2011 1:10pm Sep 29, 2011 1:10pm
Quoting ewokuk
ummm, not sure what you are looking at but there is NO decimal between the 2 and the 0, it very clearly says 20 not 2.0
Hi ewokuk,

The minimum stop distance for US30 is listed on the CFD product details page and in the CFD product guide. Here’s a screenshot of each page displaying the minimum stop distance:

CFD Product Details: http://www.fxcm.co.uk/cfd-product-de...IndicesDetails
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3...11113656am.png

CFD Product Guide: http://docs.fxcorporate.com/user-gui...ide-ltd-en.pdf
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/1...11114134am.png

I’m seeing a decimal between the 2 and the 0 on each page where the CFD details are listed. If you see differently, can you please let me know the URL for the webpage you are viewing so I can make sure there is not an error. There’s also an FAQ on CFD’s for trading and execution located here http://www.fxcm.co.uk/cfd-faqs.jsp .

Quote
In addition to that all this, 'no requotes' is not as good as it sounds because based on past experience, what I expect to get is a nice chunk of slippage instead, and if I then choose to use these slippage controls I will effectively be getting requotes,

There’s a big difference between waiting 5-40 seconds to receive a re-quote as you mentioned in your first post, and choosing on NDD forex execution to automatically have your order filled at the best available price where liquidity is available. With a Dealing Desk, you’re at the mercy of the dealer. Who knows…maybe they’re having a bad day and want to make you wait 40+ seconds.

With NDD forex execution there’s no dealer using his/her judgement on where you get filled, and how long it takes to send a re-quote back to you. On NDD forex execution, you specify whether you want your order filled at the best price available or whether there’s a range of prices you’re willing to accept. If you choose to have your order executed At Best and liquidity is no longer available, your order is immediately sent the next best available price and the order is filled dependent on liquidity. You’re not sitting at your computer wondering how long it will take for the dealer to decide if you will receive a re-quote, at what price, and how long it will take to get back to you.

Quoting ewokuk
Also conveniently (for them) I have noticed that while waiting for execution, if the price has moved in my favour, i get rejected, if the price has moved against me, it gets happily executed several seconds later. Not impressed. I just want instant execution regardless or my trade size or winning streak and I am only going ot get that with NDD.
An astute observation. How many times have you ever received a re-quote in your favor? If you get a better price when trading with a market maker, the broker’s dealer may be giving up part of their gain. An unlikely scenario when your profit is potentially their loss and your loss is potentially their profit. Orders on FXCM’s NDD forex execution are filled dependent on liquidity, and slippage can be both positive or negative. This is why we highlight strategies using limit and limit entry orders for forex trades http://www.fxcm.co.uk/forex-price-im...jsp#Strategies .


- Jason
  • #19
  • Sep 27, 2013 5:54am Sep 27, 2013 5:54am
http://fpmarkets.co.uk
  • #20
  • Sep 30, 2013 2:23am Sep 30, 2013 2:23am
Quoting TheMaxx
http://fpmarkets.co.uk

Looks like the spread betting has been pulled for registrations.
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