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Are Traders Programmed to Fail?

  • #101
  • Sep 18, 2011 1:22pm Sep 18, 2011 1:22pm
Quoting doctortyby
Please use an RESPECTFUL LANGUAGE, IN ORDER TO HAVE A DECENT CONVERSATION, to actually learn something from it.
Quoting doctortyby
It is very important to keep being polite in our disscutions.
nubcake, I think doctortyby is talking about you!

Quoting nubcake
some of you are just too clever for your own fucking good, and it serves you right.
Gentlemen always play by the rules. If they can't, they change the rules.
  • #102
  • Sep 18, 2011 1:30pm Sep 18, 2011 1:30pm
Quoting bumapatria
Doctor,

No one is programmed to fail or succeed unless one programs themselves to. If you programmed yourself to fail, you always have a chance to reprogram your system for success, no? For me, i believe in life, with every success and failure, it is you the cause. You don't get a girlfriend with the greatest girl in the worldd? Your fault. You dont get profit in a trade? Your fault. You win a trade? Your fault. You and the best girl fall in love, and raise a family, and have what u consider an awesome relationship. Your fault

Just remember...
Hello My Friend,

It is hard for me to believe You are only 14 years old. Your thinking is way before your age. GUYS, THIS 14 YEARS OLD HUMAN SAYS:

"TAKE RESPONSABILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS AND DECISIONS, FOR YOUR OWN LIFE... YOU ARE YOUR SUCCESS OR FAILURE" (not exactly these words but you get the idea)

It is incredible... you have really taken me by surprise BIG MAN...

You are already a success.. do not ever let ANYONE demoralize you...

Just be aware that the Environement around you could attack you at any given time... do not let them take you by surprize... nothing should hold you down.. never

FOR YOU.. THERE IS ONLY SUCCESS... LIKE I SAID BEFORE "LOVE THE LITTLE THINGS BUT FORGET ABOUT LITTLE THINGS WHEN THEY TRY TO TAKE YOU DOWN..."

I could only have the deepest consideration and respect for you...

What is freedom for you, my friend?

Doctortyby
  • #103
  • Sep 18, 2011 1:40pm Sep 18, 2011 1:40pm
Dear Friends,

This FREEDOM psychology "mumbo jumbo" (as my dear friend Favorite says), could be one of the few things that...

CAN MAKE YOU REALISE THAT YOU ARE A SLAVE (OR NOT)
of the Financial/Economic/Political/Social SYSTEM

SO, please do take this thread seriously.

To Your Success,
Doctortyby
  • #104
  • Sep 18, 2011 1:54pm Sep 18, 2011 1:54pm
Quoting doctortyby
This FREEDOM psychology "mumbo jumbo" (as my dear friend Favorite says), could be one of the few things that... CAN MAKE YOU REALISE THAT YOU ARE A SLAVE (OR NOT) of the Financial/Economic/Political/Social SYSTEM

SO, please do take this thread seriously.
So it is NOT about NLP/psychology anymore, now it is about politics, social science and society? Now it is about Free Enterprise being "not fair" and "enslaving people"?

doctortyby, in case you forgot: it is a FOREX forum, not some socialists/communists' forum.
Gentlemen always play by the rules. If they can't, they change the rules.
  • #105
  • Sep 18, 2011 1:55pm Sep 18, 2011 1:55pm
Quoting hanover
IMO discipline can come only from having 100% confidence that your trading approach is long-term profitable, and confidence can come only from experience: ideally having several hundred trades behind you, over many years of changing markets. Profitable trading is not learned overnight.

An understanding of statistical fluctuation is helpful. Suppose you suddenly have an unexpected sequence of losses. You need to somehow know whether this is likely to be a temporary aberration; or whether your method is in need of review, and possible overhaul. Only...

What do You do if (let's say for the sake of disscution) You use a certain system and EA's, and Fundamentals and Market Conditions change... Of course, I believe there is no system that can work in any market conditions and changes. How do you cover Your loses?...

And there is always 50 % that you are wrong... right? (no matter what percentage your system or analysis offers you for price action). After you enter the market... the price could go 50% in your direction, 50% against you, at any given time... no matter what...

Trading is a PROBABILITY OR POSSIBILITY?... JUST ASKIN'



Thank You...
Doctortyby
  • #106
  • Sep 18, 2011 2:08pm Sep 18, 2011 2:08pm
Quoting Favorite
So it is NOT about NLP/psychology anymore, now it is about politics, social science and society? Now it is about Free Enterprise being "not fair" and "enslaving people"?

doctortyby, in case you forgot: it is a FOREX forum, not some socialists/communists' forum.
Trading could be Your way to FINANCIAL FREEDOM, my friend... but there is something beyond Your money... try to find out what it is...
Find out for yourself.

Doctortyby
  • #107
  • Sep 18, 2011 2:13pm Sep 18, 2011 2:13pm
Quoting doctortyby
Trading could be Your way to FINANCIAL FREEDOM, my friend... but there is something beyond Your money... try to find out what it is...
Find out for yourself.
Quoting doctortyby
This FREEDOM psychology "mumbo jumbo" (as my dear friend Favorite says), could be one of the few things that... CAN MAKE YOU REALISE THAT YOU ARE A SLAVE (OR NOT) of the Financial/Economic/Political/Social SYSTEM
Guys, our good Doctor is a communist! I knew that! Let's get him!
Gentlemen always play by the rules. If they can't, they change the rules.
  • #108
  • Sep 18, 2011 3:18pm Sep 18, 2011 3:18pm
Quoting doctortyby
What do You do if (let's say for the sake of disscution) You use a certain system and EA's, and Fundamentals and Market Conditions change... Of course, I believe there is no system that can work in any market conditions and changes. How do you cover Your loses?...
I attempted to address this in the second paragraph of my earlier post. Over time your wins should more than cover your losses. It's my belief that some methods are more robust than others, and are more likely to withstand changing market conditions; some of the setups in this thread are a good example. There are reasons why a larger number of orders are placed at certain levels in the market.

Quoting doctortyby
And there is always 50 % that you are wrong... right? (no matter what percentage your system or analysis offers you for price action). After you enter the market... the price could go 50% in your direction, 50% against you, at any given time... no matter what...
Bottom line is that you need an edge. A positive expectancy method will, over time, win more $$$ than it loses. You don't need to be right 50% of the time if your winning trades are big enough to cover your losses (as a simple example, if my average win nets 2% for my account, and my average loss loses 1%, then a win rate of 40% would be enough to give me a winning edge).

I don't think it's necessarily a case of being "programmed to fail"; I suspect that in many cases it's more likely to be a lack of market knowledge. Better to spend one's time studying the 'hows' and 'whys' of price movement, than reading psychology books.
  • #109
  • Sep 18, 2011 3:24pm Sep 18, 2011 3:24pm
hey this is getting interesting..............

you see we are all slaves, of course we all realize the top few % of society controls the wealth and assets, the production capacity of a nation, while the workers, give their skills and time to produce the goods and make the owners of the means of production more wealthy.

the banking elite and their fractional reserve system, their monopoly on money creation enslaves the population and depletes their saving by inflation, in order for government to spend beyond their means, and at the end the middle class and the poor lose purchasing power in what seems like phantom tax

also we are all slaves for our jobs, if we lose our jobs we lose the means to sustain ourselves, which is why we are all here trying to be independent of the system, and be the top %.


we are also slaves of our own psychological perspective, morals, ethics, rules, insecurities etc.....



lets see where this conversation turns out to be.

BTW favorite how can you toy with the mind of psychologist?
you are a dirty bastard , dont make him go crazy now with all the taunting.


he will need us to do some NLP on him
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #110
  • Sep 18, 2011 3:31pm Sep 18, 2011 3:31pm
Quoting hanover
I attempted to address this in the second paragraph of my earlier post. Over time your wins should more than cover your losses. It's my belief that some methods are more robust than others, and are more likely to withstand changing market conditions; some of the setups in this thread are a good example. There are reasons why a larger number of orders are placed at certain levels in the market.


Bottom line is that you need an edge. A positive expectancy method will, over time,...

hanover is correct but there is one point i want to add.

market knowledge and understanding of the underlying factors in order to profit is good, minimizing loss and maximizing wins is also the FOUNDATION.

one confidence is achieved in OUR ABILITIES then if we cannot execute, or trust ourselves, or if our greed clouds our judgement THEN MINDSET AND PSYCHOLOGY needs to improve.

there is no USE in NLP or psychology to be able to execute if the plan is flawed, if psychology was all that was needed........EAs and robots would be highly profitable. I can stick to a flawed trading method and blow out my account while blaming it on psychology. or i could stick to flawed trading method and have all the psychology, and balls to execute but at the end of the day a flawed method produces flawed results.

its making burgers before killing the cow

first a solid plan, then psychology to execute.

YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT YOU DONT KNOW. we dont have an ancient instinct on trading that can be tapped into by NLP.
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #111
  • Sep 18, 2011 3:49pm Sep 18, 2011 3:49pm
Quoting the redlion
BTW favorite how can you toy with the mind of psychologist?
you are a dirty bastard , dont make him go crazy now with all the taunting.


he will need us to do some NLP on him
the redlion, you hit the nail on the head again, you're dirty bastard!

You see, I understand how the communist's mind works, that's why I'm so good at toying with our Doctor's mind!
Gentlemen always play by the rules. If they can't, they change the rules.
  • #112
  • Sep 18, 2011 6:09pm Sep 18, 2011 6:09pm
Quoting doctortyby
What do You do if (let's say for the sake of disscution) You use a certain system and EA's, and Fundamentals and Market Conditions change... Of course, I believe there is no system that can work in any market conditions and changes. How do you cover Your loses?...

And there is always 50 % that you are wrong... right? (no matter what percentage your system or analysis offers you for price action). After you enter the market... the price could go 50% in your direction, 50% against you, at any given time... no matter what...

Trading...
Well, OK, so I'll take the thread seriously. First, it's clear you don't have much trading experience. Yes, the next tick will be either with me or against me, but that has nothing to do with the overall direction and where I expect the price to be when I close the position in the next 3-10 days. I've learned how to trade profitably through hard work and lots of practice - this is the reason I don't psych myself out when it goes a little bit against me, not because I spent my valuable time learning why I feel scared.

You never addressed my comment back on Page 2. I'm drawing from solid, credible personal experience, as well as the experience of hundreds of people in my position, whom I personally know. We all tried, in a very serious way since it was/is our careers, to overcome our issues through self-hypnosis, self-analysis, distractions, performing while exhausted or hungry, using beta-blockers; and many of us spent (and some continue to spend) a lot of money on psychiatrists.

The only thing which worked for us was/is manning-up (or womaning-up) and working so hard we had no choice but to be highly confident on stage. This approach cut to the matter, which is why it works.

Quoting doctortyby
Trading could be Your way to FINANCIAL FREEDOM, my friend... but there is something beyond Your money... try to find out what it is...
Find out for yourself.

Doctortyby
You criticized me for talking in riddles, but you're doing the same thing. You're talking in platitudes like a false prophet.

Why are you so convinced that psycho-analysis is the solution to good trading, even above and beyond simply learning how to trade well? Why do you believe so strongly that spending time understanding why you feel panicked when the price goes against you is better than spending time learning the market and trading it?

JUST ASKIN...
  • #113
  • Sep 20, 2011 11:23am Sep 20, 2011 11:23am
I've noticed most people never think of FREEDOM.

Most people have an illusion of their Success because they never think beyond what they were thought from their Family, School Education, Society, Mass-Media, Work Environement, Life Experience... etc.

Most People don't realise that what they consider as "their SUCCESS" could be more often "THEIR BIGGEST LIFE FAILURE".

I SAY: NEVER SETTLE FOR LESS THAN WHAT YOU ARE ABLE TO OBTAIN.. AT ANY TIME... BEYOND TIME

You can win as much as Your GOALS try to obtain. If you run for Failure, Your will get it.

TRADING is YOUR BUSINESS... Think at Yourself as a BUSINESS OWNER AND AN INVESTOR at the same time.

In the "Business Environement" there are 2 tipes of businesses (if we EXCLUDE the CORPORATIONS): SMALL BUSINESSES and GET FINANCIAL FREEDOM BUSINESSES. Small Businesses keep you working for them like a SLAVE, while GREAT BUSINESSES WORK FOR YOUR COMFORT and FINANCIAL FREEDOM.

What makes a Business GREAT? Not the product or service that it Sells... BUT THE PEOPLE THAT MANAGE IT (AND THEIR TEAM)... THEIR MENTALITY

You CANNOT OBTAIN 1.000% PROFIT if you settle for 5% PROFIT per MONTH (although this means more than 80% per YEAR if you use the compound return factor)... It would take you about 4 or 5 years... That would be excellent if you had an initial investment of at least 100.000$. After 5 years you would have 1 million $.

In order to GET FINANCIAL FREEDOM, you need to have savings of at least 1.000.000 $... to sustain your living comfort for the next 50 years (in normal conditions and with inflation protection for your savings).

So, if you want to THINK BIG... you need to think how you can get to 1.000.000$ (at least) FOR STARTER... But wait, let's say you have 500$ to START with... That means that if your goal is to win a 5% monthly from your account, in 5 years time you will have 5.000$... That's acceptable I quess for a Part-Time Trader.

But, if you win, let's say 100% per month, for a 500$ original investment, you will have a 1.600% Profit in 5 months, or 8.000$... Slithly closer to 1 million... in another 5 months you will have 128.000 $... at this time you could try a more conservative risk management and obtain, let's say 20%/ month (and obtain 1.114.000 $ in 12 months), or you can continue with the aggressive money management and obtain 1.024.000 $ (or 800% Profit) in the next 4 months.

to be continued...
  • #114
  • Sep 20, 2011 11:35am Sep 20, 2011 11:35am
Quoting doctortyby
Hello traders,

This Thread IS NOT ABOUT ME, MY EXPERIENCE OR MY TRADING SYSTEMS.
I've studied and used Mental Programming long before I've started trading... so... trading is a part of my mental road to freedom and not "Vice Versa"

This Thread is about 3 questions... the 3 questions from the first post...
Please do not expect me to answer them for You...
Take responsability for Your own actions and decisions...
This thread is NOT about a NLP "profitable system", it is about using NLP against you as a trader through education....
Quoting Rob Mondave
Well, OK, so I'll take the thread seriously. First, it's clear you don't have much trading experience. Yes, the next tick will be either with me or against me, but that has nothing to do with the overall direction and where I expect the price to be when I close the position in the next 3-10 days. I've learned how to trade profitably through hard work and lots of practice - this is the reason I don't psych myself out when it goes a little bit against me, not because I spent my valuable time learning why I feel scared.

You never addressed...
Hello my dear friend Rob Mondave,

You expect answers from me, BUT YOU ASK THE WRONG QUESTIONS...

IF YOU WILL ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS, YOU WILL HAVE THE ANSWERS IN THE QUESTIONS THAT YOU ASK...

IF THE QUESTIONS ARE THE RIGHT ONES, YOU WILL SEE THAT THE ONE WHO ASKS THE QUESTIONS IS HIMSELF INSIDE THE QUESTIONS...

SO HOW COULD I EVER ANSWER A QUESTION THAT YOU ASK ME, ABOUT YOURSELF?...

Seems like a riddle again.. doesn't it?... well it is not quite...
To better understand what I'm trying to advice You, find some time to read one of the most important BOOKs of ALL TIMES...

Martin Heidegger - "ZEIN UND ZEIT" (BEEING AND TIME)... It is very important that you read the first 50-60 pages at least... and You will have a gimpse of what you should ask yourself...

PS: It is not a Psychology Book... far from it... it is a philosophy book that changed the world
  • #115
  • Sep 20, 2011 11:58am Sep 20, 2011 11:58am
By the way guys,

I forgot to mention that when I speak of Psychology and Mental Programming (Training, Education, Experience ... call it as You wish)... I do not refer to the stupid science that is tought in schools and presented in a very wrong way in most books...

I'm speaking about REAL PSYCHOLOGY of your BRAIN and SUB-CONSCIOUSS... or at least in MY BRAIN

That is why most Psychologist fail to help humans to recover or to heal them... and that could be the reason why I am criticized all the time here, in this thread... Because PSYCHOLOGY as we know it is a "HALF TRUTH" (see first post)...

"HAPPY TRADING",
Doctortyby
  • #116
  • Sep 20, 2011 12:03pm Sep 20, 2011 12:03pm
Quoting doctortyby
Hello my dear friend Rob Mondave,

You expect answers from me, BUT YOU ASK THE WRONG QUESTIONS...

IF YOU WILL ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS, YOU WILL HAVE THE ANSWERS IN THE QUESTIONS THAT YOU ASK...
(perplexed chuckle) I did ask you questions about your belief in prioritizing self-exploration over simply learning to do it well. I don't see the benefits. Maybe if you explained it...

You're actually sounding like one of those people who has discovered 'the Truth' and you're part of a secret club which holds the key; and now you're blessing us with a glimpse of the Shining Light.

By the way, your condescension is offensive, but maybe it's tit-for-tat for my mocking you earlier.


Quoting doctortyby
To better understand what I'm trying to advice You, find some time to read one of the most important BOOKs of ALL TIMES...

Martin Heidegger - "ZEIN UND ZEIT" (BEEING AND TIME)... It is very important that you read the first 50-60 pages at least... and You will have a gimpse of what you should ask yourself...

PS: It is not a Psychology Book... far from it... it is a philosophy book that changed the world
Yes, you have The Truth.
  • #117
  • Sep 20, 2011 12:09pm Sep 20, 2011 12:09pm
Guys,

If PROS TRADERS, that have been trading FULL TIME for more than 5 YEARS.. are not yet financially FREE... From my perspective you can consider that all their experience could be a dis-advantage istead of an advantage... although most New Traders lose more money...

Could They Have "trained" themselves (or let themselves trained) to settle for less... for FEAR of LOSING?...

Like I said... Trading is LIKE a BUSINESS... and just like a Business could be a "small business" or a "great business" (not a corporation just a great business started from scratch)...

Doctortyby
  • #118
  • Sep 20, 2011 12:20pm Sep 20, 2011 12:20pm
Quoting Rob Mondave
(perplexed chuckle) I did ask you questions about your belief in prioritizing self-exploration over simply learning to do it well. I don't see the benefits. Maybe if you explained it...

You're actually sounding like one of those people who has discovered 'the Truth' and you're part of a secret club which holds the key; and now you're blessing us with a glimpse of the Shining Light.

By the way, your condescension is offensive, but maybe it's tit-for-tat for my mocking you earlier.

Yes, you have The Truth.
I'm sorry if I have offended You... I was just trying to help...

If I was part of a secret club I would have remained secret...

I am really trying to give you something, because I obtain something very important from you... the hard part is that you have to get your answers by yourself...

To Your sucess,
Doctortyby
  • #119
  • Sep 20, 2011 12:52pm Sep 20, 2011 12:52pm
Quoting doctortyby
Hello My Friend,

It is hard for me to believe You are only 14 years old. Your thinking is way before your age. GUYS, THIS 14 YEARS OLD HUMAN SAYS:

"TAKE RESPONSABILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS AND DECISIONS, FOR YOUR OWN LIFE... YOU ARE YOUR SUCCESS OR FAILURE" (not exactly these words but you get the idea)

It is incredible... you have really taken me by surprise BIG MAN...

You are already a success.. do not ever let ANYONE demoralize you...

Just be aware that the Environement around you could attack you at any given time......
Thank you, and i also wish to always learn more about the markets, and gain more discipline towards the system and the trading style i use.

Your question about freedom. You wanted me to define freedom?
Have I got something on my face, SOLDIER?
  • #120
  • Sep 20, 2011 12:55pm Sep 20, 2011 12:55pm
Quoting doctortyby
I'm sorry if I have offended You... I was just trying to help...

If I was part of a secret club I would have remained secret...

I am really trying to give you something, because I obtain something very important from you... the hard part is that you have to get your answers by yourself...

To Your sucess,
Doctortyby
OK, you've played the Innocent card and now that that's out of your system...

Quoting doctortyby
If PROS TRADERS, that have been trading FULL TIME for more than 5 YEARS.. are not yet financially FREE... From my perspective you can consider that all their experience could be a dis-advantage istead of an advantage... although most New Traders lose more money...

Could They Have "trained" themselves (or let themselves trained) to settle for less... for FEAR of LOSING?...
I'll relent a little bit and agree that if someone has put in their 10,000 hours (40hrs/week, 50wks/year for 5 years) and is still not trading profitably, then either they didn't take their education seriously (less likely) or they have serious confidence issues (more likely). Someone like that can probably benefit greatly by focusing on the 'inner' him; yet someone like that, as well, probably also has trouble in other areas of life, including job interviews and women.

Yet, that is the situation for a very small number of people, and a world away from butt-busting hard work to learn the market.

As far as 'settling for less' goes, I think it's more like 'being conservative because I want steady and consistent gains for the length of my career'. People like Jesse Livermore made unimaginable money (in their time), then lost it all, multiple times. A conservative trader might have to 'settle for less' if he doesn't want to go through those highs a lows. It's more an issue of goals than fear.
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