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zero number game zeroing me out!

  • #1
  • First Post: Aug 29, 2011 12:17pm Aug 29, 2011 12:17pm
This question has been doing my head in for a while ...

Let's say I'm in a chat room and I call out a price that I buy and I also state my stop loss.

I'm sure in theory that it's possible for another retail trader (or a group) with good liquidity to gun for my stop loss.

What I like to ask if this is a highly probable scenario or am I being too paranoid?
  • #2
  • Aug 29, 2011 1:14pm Aug 29, 2011 1:14pm
Quoting pippin4me
This question has been doing my head in for a while ...

Let's say I'm in a chat room and I call out a price that I buy and I also state my stop loss.

I'm sure in theory that it's possible for another retail trader (or a group) with good liquidity to gun for my stop loss.

What I like to ask if this is a highly probable scenario or am I being too paranoid?
Unless you are trading in the same room as buffet or soros I am fairly certain your stops are safe
  • #3
  • Aug 29, 2011 2:07pm Aug 29, 2011 2:07pm
physical stops are not safe, its the best way to blow your account little by little.

liquidity hungry dealers do spike prices to try to fill large orders, and create fake break outs.

stop hunting is a real danger,
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #4
  • Aug 29, 2011 2:18pm Aug 29, 2011 2:18pm
Quoting the redlion
physical stops are not safe, its the best way to blow your account little by little.

liquidity hungry dealers do spike prices to try to fill large orders, and create fake break outs.

stop hunting is a real danger,
Thanks.
  • #5
  • Aug 29, 2011 2:47pm Aug 29, 2011 2:47pm
Quoting the redlion
physical stops are not safe, its the best way to blow your account little by little.

liquidity hungry dealers do spike prices to try to fill large orders, and create fake break outs.

stop hunting is a real danger,
Where should he place his stops then? You should NEVER trade without a stop in place.
  • #6
  • Aug 29, 2011 2:54pm Aug 29, 2011 2:54pm
Quoting the redlion
physical stops are not safe, its the best way to blow your account little by little.

liquidity hungry dealers do spike prices to try to fill large orders, and create fake break outs.

stop hunting is a real danger,
you are wrong. Your Sls being hit mean you are wrong on this trade.

Why not trade at the price which you usually place your SL. Could cause some surprised performances
  • #7
  • Aug 29, 2011 3:01pm Aug 29, 2011 3:01pm
Quoting jag1966
Where should he place his stops then? You should NEVER trade without a stop in place.
NEVER say NEVER. one can trade as one pleases, i personally dont use physical stops, i use price itself proving me im wrong on my opinion.

i interactively manage my positions, so by the time im out of the money, and volatility shows me im dead in the water, i will bite the bullet.

one cannot put a line in the sand especially when your dealer sees that line.
guess how many people have the same line? that would be the best area to sweep for stops and unload large orders as to minimize your risk.

as a dealer when the market participants are buying they are in turn making the dealer short. the dealer needs to mitigate that potential liability.

trading has no RULES, one finds what best suites our styles and what makes us profitable as we seek to mollify our losses
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #8
  • Aug 29, 2011 3:06pm Aug 29, 2011 3:06pm
Quoting duyk20
you are wrong. Your Sls being hit mean you are wrong on this trade.

Why not trade at the price which you usually place your SL. Could cause some surprised performances

what does being wrong mean?

wrong on your directional bias
wrong on your estimation of volatility
wrong on the timing of your entrance
wrong on your feel for velocity

one can be wrong and make money
one can be right and lose money
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #9
  • Aug 29, 2011 3:12pm Aug 29, 2011 3:12pm
Quoting the redlion
what does being wrong mean?

wrong on your directional bias
wrong on your estimation of volatility
wrong on the timing of your entrance
wrong on your feel for velocity

one can be wrong and make money
one can be right and lose money
You r funny

If your sl is being hit, you r wrong on the trade; so move on to others.
  • #10
  • Aug 29, 2011 3:44pm Aug 29, 2011 3:44pm
Quoting the redlion
one cannot put a line in the sand especially when your dealer sees that line.
guess how many people have the same line? that would be the best area to sweep for stops and unload large orders as to minimize your risk.
So? What is the difference between a physical SL seen by your broker and a mental one that you put for yourself in your head?
If your mental stop is in the same spot where all those people have their real stops and the broker hunts it down, he will trigger your mental stop as well, right?
And if you, being aware of the area where a stop hunt may occur, place your mental stop just beyond the area, you could just as well put your real stop there. If no one else has a stop there I don't think the broker will make a spike just to take out your stop - unless you trade really huge
So, again - what is the advantage of not having a physical stop (because disadvantages are pretty obvious)?
  • #11
  • Aug 29, 2011 3:56pm Aug 29, 2011 3:56pm
personally

i can remain objective enough that even if price moves against my position i can interactively manage it.

and if im not day trading and price moves against me, the first question to ask is , is it a directional change or is it in tune with volatility.

stop losses although propagated as a money management tool is not the be all to end all.

one can

press
hold
liquidate
scale in
scale out
average down

its how you manage your trade, that makes you profit. and its the ability to recognize the changing market condition that dictates my action.

my stop loss is the market proving me wrong, not a spike on a chart.
hope i make sense
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #12
  • Aug 29, 2011 4:17pm Aug 29, 2011 4:17pm
Quoting the redlion
i can remain objective enough that even if price moves against my position i can interactively manage it.
Well, I can only envy you there. I am still at the stage where I tend to cut my profits short and let my losses run
But, don't you at least use some kind of emergency stop? What if you lose your connection, your computer or whatever you use to trade fries, you pass out or your broker's data center is blown to smithereens by a disgruntled customer?
  • #13
  • Aug 29, 2011 4:22pm Aug 29, 2011 4:22pm
Quoting the redlion
personally

i can remain objective enough that even if price moves against my position i can interactively manage it.

and if im not day trading and price moves against me, the first question to ask is , is it a directional change or is it in tune with volatility.

stop losses although propagated as a money management tool is not the be all to end all.

one can

press
hold
liquidate
scale in
scale out
average down

its how you manage your trade, that makes you profit. and its the ability to recognize the changing market condition that dictates...
wrong is wrong, and you are so wrong, no one is hunting your stops at all, you just have no clue about the correct entry.
  • #14
  • Aug 29, 2011 4:23pm Aug 29, 2011 4:23pm
Quoting duyk20
You r funny

If your sl is being hit, you r wrong on the trade; so move on to others.
just like he said
  • #15
  • Aug 29, 2011 4:25pm Aug 29, 2011 4:25pm
Quoting the redlion
NEVER say NEVER. one can trade as one pleases, i personally dont use physical stops, i use price itself proving me im wrong on my opinion.

i interactively manage my positions, so by the time im out of the money, and volatility shows me im dead in the water, i will bite the bullet.

one cannot put a line in the sand especially when your dealer sees that line.
guess how many people have the same line? that would be the best area to sweep for stops and unload large orders as to minimize your risk.

as a dealer when the market participants are buying...
there are rules
  • #16
  • Aug 29, 2011 7:38pm Aug 29, 2011 7:38pm
Quoting jag1966
Where should he place his stops then? You should NEVER trade without a stop in place.
Apparently you trade with stop loss and it is working for you. 95% of other traders who also trade with a stop loss are not making it. Do you think something is wrong?

I started trading with tight stops. As can be imagined it ended disastrously. Subsequently I gave more room and the results improved. And so on. Presently I have widened the stop loss to infinity. I have become positive since then.

Do you suggest I should rejoin those my 95 friends and start using a stop loss again?

King.
  • #17
  • Aug 29, 2011 7:59pm Aug 29, 2011 7:59pm
(@ no one in particular)

Everyone has different styles here, and they are also trading on different timeframes. That is one reason that a consensus can not be reached on these issues.

So how about this:

Yes - place a hard stop loss on your trade. If your expected mental stop is around, say 20 - 35 pips range, then place a hard stop at 50 - 80 pips range. This defends against black swans and power outages.

If one truly is good at managing their trades and has no problem with a strategic close and reverse when the price action is proving to go the other way, then trading without stops is fine and is certainly up to each traders personal preference. Once you've been trading for 5 or 10 years, you will form those decisions yourself based on your own experiences and trading personality. But.... if you have to ask..... USE STOPS.

As far as big money hunting your stops.... no I don't think so. Big money hunts big money. You can advertise your stop level on every forum around and no one is gonna care to gun for a retail stop.

Clusters of stops, sure. But your individual stop is not weighed into that at all.
  • #18
  • Aug 29, 2011 8:55pm Aug 29, 2011 8:55pm
In the first 5 posts following the OP we already have at least 4 strong differences of opinion on whether or not stops should be used, or how to place them. Is it any wonder that people get confused when trying to learn about trading? Even I have to wonder how much of this junk is intentional misrepresentation.
To improve is to change. To perfect, is to change often.
  • #19
  • Aug 29, 2011 9:03pm Aug 29, 2011 9:03pm
price sums it up real well

but guess where most retail traders put their stops?

at cluster areas, and im not saying the big bad big money hunts them on purpose, but your dealer will use the cluster to mitigate risks to fill large blocks of orders

use them or dont use them, is up to the individual
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #20
  • Aug 29, 2011 9:14pm Aug 29, 2011 9:14pm
Quoting forexhard
In the first 5 posts following the OP we already have at least 4 strong differences of opinion on whether or not stops should be used, or how to place them. Is it any wonder that people get confused when trying to learn about trading? Even I have to wonder how much of this junk is intentional misrepresentation.

I agree but if it was easy to make millions, everyone will be doing it.

Your job is to sift though the BS and find what works for you. Sorry, no other way
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