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Real Fx traders do not use stoploss

  • #121
  • Jul 22, 2011 11:52pm Jul 22, 2011 11:52pm
Quoting Blackship
hi guys,

I've heard that pro fx traders who do not use stop losses and this had contributed much controvesy. Anyone who approve or disapprove please comment
here's the key difference between pro fx traders and us.

pros: they have a deep pocket.
us: we don't.

you'd be the judge on this, if using sl is smart thing to do or not.
  • #122
  • Jul 26, 2011 3:52pm Jul 26, 2011 3:52pm
dont agree everyone who want to be profitable will use sl, stop loss dont take you money i bad way only let you know that something is wrong with your analyze but if you have time to be 24/5 on computer dont use sl when you can close it manual
  • #123
  • Aug 16, 2011 4:59pm Aug 16, 2011 4:59pm
Quoting Expert44
What goes up will come down is or was just a popular saying. And when everybody uses this, this will come to nothing. About trading without stop losses. Well, market goes in swings and these swings are actually eaters of stop losses as far as these stop losses go. If you know what you do then after a wave you see the new picture and decide where to put your stop loss. On the other side some news can make big moves, so a distant stop loss is a must. Usually stop losses make us lose.
I agree with most of this. My favourite mistake is to enter too early; and on the occasion when I was feeling brave I sat out the swings, looked at the charts, and waited for the price to come back to me. It took a week, and I finished up 30 pips (@ $5/pip). I was running a mental SL around 20% and it was a bit uncomfortable around day-3, but I watched for support holding and that kept me in. For me it was an exercise in reason rather than letting fear take hold, and in this case it was an important confidence boost.

Why didn't I exit when I was obviously minus a lot? Well that is the point at which you actually take the loss, and I didn't want to take the loss. Also as you wrote the market goes in swings and you can trade within the swing-range so long as the PA remains within boundaries. If I'm feeling brave again after the next BoJ intervention I shall take a short after about 12 hours and wait for 300 pips to come back.

Quoting sgcapital
....but if you have time to be 24/5 on computer dont use sl when you can close it manual
You need to keep your leverage low, otherwise you probably cannot sleep without SL - unless you play with only beer-money.
Minesweeper target: 284
  • #124
  • Edited 10:51am Sep 6, 2011 10:38am | Edited 10:51am
Quoting dddd
Black swans will be the end of them.....

Quoting dddd
custos and nubcake. this is their spiritual father. Apparently the reason why trades lose money in the market is because they use stops. Gotta love it.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=70464

today is a reminder of why black swans are such a landmine.
  • #125
  • Sep 6, 2011 10:47am Sep 6, 2011 10:47am
Quoting dddd
today is a reminder of why black swans are such a landmine.
fish in a barrel.

vvvvvVVVVVVVVVVVVPEWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!

Inserted Video
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #126
  • Sep 6, 2011 10:53am Sep 6, 2011 10:53am
Quoting nubcake
fish in a barrel.

vvvvvVVVVVVVVVVVVPEWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MyahxyFBm4

nubcake, you are soooo evil. you are enjoying this, arent you?
  • #127
  • Sep 6, 2011 11:06am Sep 6, 2011 11:06am
Quoting dddd
nubcake, you are soooo evil. you are enjoying this, arent you?
^this.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #128
  • Sep 7, 2011 11:37am Sep 7, 2011 11:37am
Almost every professional trader has a "stop-loss" whether it is in the market or not. It is silly to walk into a trade without a reasonable location where the trader will know he is wrong.
  • #129
  • Sep 7, 2011 11:42am Sep 7, 2011 11:42am
I agree with most of what the original poster advocates here, however I ues similar principles on a 5 min EU chart to scalp, there is NO REASON why this has to be used on a large time frame. Despite what you may have heard about "noise" and "random moves" on small time frame charts, there is no such thing, every movement in the market is for a reason and the price action divided into time frames is a fractal ( the pattern never becomes more complicated or more simple whatever time frame you use) I can hear howls of decent. Don't believe me eh, well I could put up a chart form a major pair and I guarantee you would not be able to tell me what TF it is, I know this because i've done it before. If you cant tell whether its a 5 min or 4 hour simply by looking at it, then you cant claim it's different because of noise etc.
Therefore the same principle can be applied to any time frame (actually I would say down to 5 min, below that lack of activity can betray the TF) with axactly the same potentilal success or failure ( but with faster results).
  • #130
  • Sep 7, 2011 12:24pm Sep 7, 2011 12:24pm
Quoting Sirano
I agree with most of what the original poster advocates here, however I ues similar principles on a 5 min EU chart to scalp, there is NO REASON why this has to be used on a large time frame. Despite what you may have heard about "noise" and "random moves" on small time frame charts, there is no such thing, every movement in the market is for a reason and the price action divided into time frames is a fractal ( the pattern never becomes more complicated or more simple whatever time frame you use) I can hear howls of decent. Don't believe me...
just on one part there, and i've had this garbage argument before so i'll simply leave it at this one post... there's a far difference between comparing two highly summarized and compressed forms of data such as 1hr and 1w charts which will look pretty much the same whichever way you look at either of them versus comparing a relatively non-summarized and relatively non-compressed form of data such as a 1m chart with any of the other summarized and compressed charts.

you might easily not notice, or be able to notice a weekend gap on a high tf chart, but on a 1m chart a gap of a few hundred pips is kind of obvious. and that's not even taking into consideration hourly ATR's which leave a noticeable fingerprint across a 1min chart. you've said so yourself.

it's like saying all zip files look the same, therefore all jpegs look the same. i'm glad someone else sees similarly.

some say tick and 1m charts are nothing but noise and xyz charts aren't... well i say tick and 1min charts are the cleanest and all other charts are the noise. go figure.

anyway, real fx traders don't use stoplosses, or even charts. they look into their crystal ball, flip a coin, and then call their broker from their yacht via the satellite phone. with all of the drinking and dancing ladies keeping real fx traders entertained they have no time for silly things like stoplosses... they have too many sexy women to put tanning oil on.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #131
  • Sep 7, 2011 1:52pm Sep 7, 2011 1:52pm
Quoting nubcake
just on one part there, and i've had this garbage argument before so i'll simply leave it at this one post... there's a far difference between comparing two highly summarized and compressed forms of data such as 1hr and 1w charts which will look pretty much the same whichever way you look at either of them versus comparing a relatively non-summarized and relatively non-compressed form of data such as a 1m chart with any of the other summarized and compressed charts.

you might easily not notice, or be able to notice a weekend gap on a high tf chart,...
I don't really understand your response, I am confirming my own trading experience of 4 years as a full time professional with what the original poster had written about stop losses. I think you are saying you don't agree with the idea of using no or a very large stop losses on a 5 min chart for instance. This is irrelevant as I am actually doing this type of trading and I can show you screen shots over a period of around 6 months when I was showing other traders how I traded during early to mid 2010. By the way there is no Gap in forex, another myth. Because your broker doesn't send you a feed when it's closed doesn't mean the maket isn't there. Iv'e no idea what you are talking about when you refer to a 1 hour fingerprint on a 1 min TF.
  • #132
  • Sep 7, 2011 2:14pm Sep 7, 2011 2:14pm
Quoting Sirano
I don't really understand your response, I am confirming my own trading experience of 4 years as a full time professional with what the original poster had written about stop losses. I think you are saying you don't agree with the idea of using no or a very large stop losses on a 5 min chart for instance. This is irrelevant as I am actually doing this type of trading and I can show you screen shots over a period of around 6 months when I was showing other traders how I traded during early to mid 2010. By the way there is no Gap in forex, another...
neeeeeeeevermind. i can't be bothered to even begin trying to unravel all the ways my post got turned inside out and back to front. it's just not that important.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #133
  • Sep 7, 2011 3:22pm Sep 7, 2011 3:22pm
Quoting Sirano
I agree with most of what the original poster advocates here, however I ues similar principles on a 5 min EU chart to scalp, there is NO REASON why this has to be used on a large time frame. Despite what you may have heard about "noise" and "random moves" on small time frame charts, there is no such thing, every movement in the market is for a reason and the price action divided into time frames is a fractal ( the pattern never becomes more complicated or more simple whatever time frame you use) I can hear howls of decent. Don't believe me...
Sirano,

I believe that, given enough data, I could tell the difference between (say) a 5 minute chart and a daily chart simply by looking for the spikes on the former, that are caused by major news announcements. You also get more exactly coincident tops/bottoms on lower TF charts, as another example.

No doubt that charts of all TFs exhibit very similar characteristics, e.g. trends, sideways movement, occasional congestion, breakouts from congestion, etc. But I suspect that the nature of the movement on longer TF charts is subtly different due to macroeconmic factors, greater collective averaging, and possibly other reasons.

As for the OPs comment about not using SLs, I believe that, at the very least, one needs some kind of exit strategy. If/when price moves unfavorably, then one either has to take the risk that a trend is emerging and watch his loss grow, or exit the position at some point. This post stresses the need for some kind of risk management, as an absolute minimum.

David
  • #134
  • Sep 7, 2011 5:33pm Sep 7, 2011 5:33pm
Yes, actually on another post I have put up some charts and pointed out that while I don't use pre-determined SL's I will dump positions if I feel I am becoming overextended. But what I am saying about time frames is that a daily or a four hourly is NOT more reliable than any other time frame, just slower. If you use a daily to trade you might take a week to make 400 pips, you could make the same amount in a day on a five minute. Your point about mews spikes is valid of course, he he, when I have put up charts to see if peps can tell the TF I always avoided recent news spikes. Actually, you can trade news spikes very successfully if you know how. (not by straddling or guessing in advance) See Below.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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  • #135
  • Sep 15, 2011 10:59am Sep 15, 2011 10:59am
They use EGOS.
  • #136
  • Sep 21, 2011 7:06pm Sep 21, 2011 7:06pm
Quoting Blackship
hi guys,

I've heard that pro fx traders who do not use stop losses and this had contributed much controvesy. Anyone who approve or disapprove please comment
I manually close my positions.
  • #137
  • Sep 25, 2011 11:39am Sep 25, 2011 11:39am
Quoting Robot
there is always a stoploss
Some of the least experienced might call that stoploss a 'margin call'
  • #138
  • Sep 25, 2011 12:19pm Sep 25, 2011 12:19pm
I'm a newbie Forex trader. I thought this would be more fun than just trading stocks and it requires a whole lot less research to trade forex. Actually just keeping up on the news is sufficient.

Anyway, I've spent so many hours a day for weeks reading forum posts, watching forex trading tutorials on YouTube, and even bought a trading robot to do what I'm too noobish to do (which is an insane way to trade to say the least). After 3 weeks I finally have a profitable technique. Last week when the European markets were crashing the US stock markets and the Dollar was gaining strength as traders worldwide dumped gold and stocks to buy US treasuries I actually made money in the Euro/USD market. 5% total account profit in just 2 trades on one practice account. I have 3 practice accounts with 2 different Forex brokers because I'm still a newbie and still learning.

I use a scalping strategy and it gets crazy on the 1 minute chart. I'm switching to the 5 minute chart this week. I have to say this because it is so true - the most important thing I need to be a successful Forex trader is patience. I use 4 indicators to help me decide when to enter a trade and I used the 1 minute chart and I also use the 5 minute chart next to it with the same indicators because the 5 minute chart helps me determine a trend in the 1 minute chart. One thing I noticed about Forex charts is that they are fractals. 1 minute looks like a 5 minute that looks like the 15 and so on.

About the stop loss now... I don't know if this is an effect from my trading strategy or not but on every practice account I have the times I lost big were the times I used stop losses. Every time I used a stop loss my accounts took a huge hit so I quit using them but still I panic when I enter a trade and see the candles form below it using my buy line as the new resistance. I feel bad but I have to have patience and trust my strategy. I've seen my accounts drop 15% with one or two trades open but my indicators tell me that it's going to rebound. I force myself to be patient and it almost always does. The -15% ends up +12% and my expert advisor kicks in with the trailing stops as the candles tick up.

Just experimenting and screwing around I have a 88.9% profit to loss ratio not using stoplosses and the other account I have 84.84% profit to loss ratio. Just the stops that the EA creates after the trade goes positive for me. The latter account I lost profit on5 of 28 trades. 2 of them because I panicked and exited the trade because my candle was dropping hard and fast. Had I been patient and waited 2 hours with the trade open I would have made a large profit. The other 3 losses were because my profit although positive wasn't enough to cover the commission or the spread so metatrader counted them as a loss.

So my point is that every time I sell short with a stop loss or by panicking I lost money. Every time I am patient and leave the trade open even though it's heavily negative it came back and I made a profit from it. As others said it's all about the timing of the trade.

Oh, by the way, the 3rd practice account with the robot started off really well but it ended up losing most of its profits in 3 days. It made 1%-2% profit while I made 16%-17% on one of my practice accounts. And the robot was using a lot of stop losses.
  • #139
  • Sep 26, 2011 9:40am Sep 26, 2011 9:40am
I'm prety new at this. I didn't know what forex was two month ago, but since then, I have been working full time doing nothing but Forex trading and looking for new strategies and learning indicators.

At first I didn't use stop loss and indeed I did make a lot of money in both demo account and a real account I opened since I though I was good.

But when gold started to crash and the whole market went crazy in most currencies, some positions that I had and I though it would go back up when it never did... wiped my accounts.

I agree stop loss makes you lose more often then not, but it's what saves your account from being wiped out when that one time, you're being too patient and sadly... wrong.
Wax on.... wax off....
  • #140
  • Sep 26, 2011 2:13pm Sep 26, 2011 2:13pm
with all the scams on brokers nowadays, even though this strategy might work on a legit broker(hard to find), it is risky to let a trade run w/o a stop loss, cause the broker can shut your platform down and lock you out from managing your trade.
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