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Price action is dumb, and you're lazy for thinking otherwise

  • #161
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:15pm Jul 26, 2011 1:15pm
Quoting CindyXXXX
you didn't reply to my constructive post bt you reply to my negative post. I won't get into the psychology of that but at least I can agree that forums are full of very little value and you proved my point

You see negative comments as those that don't aline with your own. Where's the value in that?
It's one thing for me to say

TA doesn't work, where is the logic in it?

and to get

You're stupid!

and to get

TA does work, and this is why....

I have been getting a lot of the "You're stupid" type responses, and I am just sick of trying to keep up with them.

Usually I would not care if someone says something negative, but there is just so much wrong with the way I keep getting called out...
  • #162
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:15pm Jul 26, 2011 1:15pm
Quoting superdezign
It's one thing for me to say

TA doesn't work, where is the logic in it?

and to get

You're stupid!

and to get

TA does work, and this is why....

I have been getting a lot of the "You're stupid" type responses, and I am just sick of trying to keep up with them.

Usually I would not care if someone says something negative, but there is just so much wrong with the way I keep getting called out...

Quoting taomql4
where's superdezign ? You had me at " Price action is dumb " - lol
Well, I guess that's it then......
You know what ? Lets start over .. I know I was laughing at you at the beginning and that's because when it comes to creating threads with Bullsh*t titles and headlines , I'll like to think am the " head honcho " . So , My sincere apologies , sir ..

Am just having a little difficulty in understanding the Premises of your arguement and with that said , 2 questions ...

* what's Price action ? how do you define it , and ..
* why is it dumb ...
  • #163
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:15pm Jul 26, 2011 1:15pm
I personally believe the technical indicator. but not 100 % but up to some extent.

Trust me there are millions of people out there trading on news and fundamental analysis. but a lot of them cries out as there are so much confusing information.

In fundamental analysis, EURUSD should go down as Europe does not have any economic growth (According to the economist on the BBC news). but actually opposing is happening right now.

My advice is do both technical and fundamental.
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  • #164
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:19pm Jul 26, 2011 1:19pm
Quoting future
Fear and greed, and group psihology. Because of that psihological fenomens every financial market overreacts on news, on forex huge leverage multiplies that reactions, and that we try to turn into profit.

Now you explain us why is FA investor/trader reads forex forum, or porhaps trades on forex?(that would be illogical, even stupid)
True

Terrible speller, but this guy is one of the only person that has given me anything of value here...

Yes, traders overreact to news, but I would not call that TA

What part of TA helps to exploit this?
  • #165
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:19pm Jul 26, 2011 1:19pm
Quoting Lucky Duke
If order flow had any relevancy to Forex, and if you were drawing serious revenue from it, the last thing in the world you'd be doing is hawking your wares on a trading website.
Ahh yes, the tired old argument of an aspiring trader. Can I assume you advocate your friends and family pass up promotions and overtime at their J-O-B as well? I mean after all, they already earn a living... why waste their time and effort?

Quote
Anyone who witnessed your live trading debacle last year saw you had no edge and went down in flames.

Sure, nevermind the half dozen high value winners I walked through live.. or the multiple account statements I'v posted. We all know one losing trade means that all trades must be losers...

Quote
More voodoo like VSA. How many people blew up thinking that had anything to do with being a trader too?

Well I can't speak for VSA, or how many people blew up their accounts with order flow. But unlike the Lucky Duke system (where is that one posted again?) there is a huge list of traders currently using it successfully...

Lets see there is:

ScottB
MQB11
GRKFX
Carnegie
Lumesh
Porkpie
skfx
nasir.khan
richfwebb
xxtrizzelxx
tact1cal
monroe
emeraldeyes

And thats just who I can think of off the top of my head. But if you want to beleive its all bullshit.. I'm cool with that. After all, even order flow traders need suckers to earn profits from and I'm guessing your money is green enough for that purpose.

Luck be with you.
  • #166
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:21pm Jul 26, 2011 1:21pm
Quoting smittens4212
Price action works because it is a visual representation of market behavior, which itself largely includes human psychology. Most retail traders are a drop in the bucket and can largely trade any way they want. As a small guy, when you consider that big money moves the market, and big money is going to make money, why what happens on the charts happens becomes a lot more clear. Take things like stop hunting, for example; the areas where it's likely to occur based on the balance of where recent trading (for example the Tokyo low on a day where the...
It doesn't have to be a A > B, pure mathematical statement..

Something like

Joel is a dog. Dogs have fur. Joel has fur

That is a logical statement. Try to explain PA that way, and we can drill out the holes in the logic.
  • #167
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:23pm Jul 26, 2011 1:23pm
HEADS UP!

I will not longer be responding to posts I think have no value in this thread

This thread is about points and counterpoints against the logic of TA and PA through logic statements...

If you have nothing to contribute, please don't waste the time of the people who are actually trying to grow as a trader.

Regards
  • #168
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:26pm Jul 26, 2011 1:26pm
Quoting taomql4
You know what ? Lets start over .. I know I was laughing at you at the beginning and that's because when it comes to creating threads with Bullsh*t titles and headlines , I'll like to think am the " head honcho " . So , My sincere apologies , sir ..

Am just having a little difficulty in understanding the Premises of your arguement and with that said , 2 questions ...

* what's Price action ? how do you define it , and ..
* why is it dumb ...
Price action -- using a collection of condensed and organized price data to observe and analyze the price movements in the market

It's "dumb" (apologize for the crude language) -- because I do not think it has any predictive properties.

Counterpoint?
  • #169
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:29pm Jul 26, 2011 1:29pm
Quoting Darkstar
Ahh yes, the tired old argument of an aspiring trader. Can I assume you advocate your friends and family pass up promotions and overtime at their J-O-B as well? I mean after all, they already earn a living... why waste their time and effort?



Sure, nevermind the half dozen high value winners I walked through live.. or the multiple account statements I'v posted. We all know one losing trade means that all trades must be losers...



Well I can't speak for VSA, or how many people blew up their accounts with order flow. But unlike the...
Darkstar,

I actually remember reading a lot of your posts a while back and I respect a lot of what you have done, but keep that stuff (see above) to PM's.

I would love you to contribute to our thread's purpose though

Looking forward to hearing from ya
  • #170
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:31pm Jul 26, 2011 1:31pm
Quoting superdezign
I have defined it. Actually I posted the definition in this thread.

And again, why are you wasting your time trying to break me down and call me out?

I just want to know if anyone can justify their buy and sell decision through some sort of logical principal..

So far... nope...

And by the way everyone keeps avoiding the subject at hand and going with

"Whatever, I make money, piss off" ect ect

The more I think TA traders are playing roulette...
You have not listened to a word of advice from people (not myself) who are recognised throughout the factory as being sound and good humoured retailers. You have only yourself to blame for not listening.You have verbally abused and challenged those people who would and could have helped you. Understand the true mathematical meaning of logic...you appear to be taking and using the word at an emotional level. True practice of logic is the very opposite of emotional response.
All systems of divination, like music itself,work through patterns.
  • #171
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:34pm Jul 26, 2011 1:34pm
Quoting superdezign
It doesn't have to be a A > B, pure mathematical statement..

Something like

Joel is a dog. Dogs have fur. Joel has fur

That is a logical statement. Try to explain PA that way, and we can drill out the holes in the logic.
I think the best way to go about the argument then would be to address specific elements of price action. For one thing, it's a very vague term, and I think that's what Cindy was getting at when she said it can work for one and not another; two traders who claim to be using "price action" but are actually trading in two very different ways.

So as I used in my example above, take stop-hunting for instance. It can be extraordinarly easy, and I bet you'd agree here, to determine where the 'herd' will be placing their stops, or heck, just their orders in general. It's almost always in the obvious spots-- above/below session (Tok, Lon, NY) high/lows, above/below "obvious" trendlines, etc. These are weak hands. These are the plays of bad traders. You don't need volume, you don't need moving averages, you just need a pair of eyes and a functioning brain. I am convinced that one could be profitable trading just the areas where obvious stops are, and trading just the areas where green traders are looking for breakouts and the money traders are looking for fakeouts.

Hmm... in the middle of my thoughts, but I must be back to work. But consider that and get back to me what you think, if there is "logic" in the above.
  • #172
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:42pm Jul 26, 2011 1:42pm
Quoting superdezign
Price action -- It's "dumb" (apologize for the crude language) -- because I do not think it has any predictive properties.
Your premise is flawed. It does not need to predict anything to have value.

Price is reallity.

We only get two things from the exchanges- PRICE & VOLUME.

Leaving volume aside for a second, everything every trader knows about the market is reflected in price. Everything the market knows about itself in its price. Price reflects the effects of volume, of open interest, of everything. All fundamentals are contained in price. Supply and Demand are contained in price. PRICE is what IS.

To respond to a previous point. Here's a little story-swear it's true.

I placed an order to buy when I saw a volume bar greater than average. 10 minutes later there was a volume bar 3 times as large, so I sold (exited my postion). I looked at my account and found there was a debit. I called my broker to inquire. "Volume has increased", I said.

My broker said, "When you buy, you are buying at a PRICE and when you sell you are selling at a PRICE. If the PRICE you bought at is less than the PRICE you sold at, you make money. Money may be the way traders keep score, but PRICE is how the market does".

PRICE IS REALITY.
Without VSA, you're playing checkers while the Smart Money plays chess.
  • #173
  • Edited 2:42pm Jul 26, 2011 1:42pm | Edited 2:42pm
How many followers someone has is no reflection on the voracity of their system. Sorry, not a selling point. A few of the people you mentioned have been desperately seeking something to turn their game around, so this place is fertile ground to sow your seeds.

Off the top of my head, you never really explained how people can read order flow in a decentralized market. Never mind black pools, HST, and order shading skewing your so called data, there's a litany of other reasons why your approach doesn't have a practical application. Great hypotheticals, interesting theory, and if you have the order book in front of you, maybe you have a chance, but you don't, so stop pretending you have a grail.

If you think you could take a single dollar of my money with your "system" keep dreaming.

Not all of us fell off a turnip truck.


Best of luck with your book sales.



Quoting Darkstar
Ahh yes, the tired old argument of an aspiring trader. Can I assume you advocate your friends and family pass up promotions and overtime at their J-O-B as well? I mean after all, they already earn a living... why waste their time and effort?



Sure, nevermind the half dozen high value winners I walked through live.. or the multiple account statements I'v posted. We all know one losing trade means that all trades must be losers...



Well I can't speak for VSA, or how many people blew up their accounts with order flow. But unlike the...
  • #174
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:45pm Jul 26, 2011 1:45pm
Quoting kaspopsicle
You have not listened to a word of advice from people (not myself) who are recognised throughout the factory as being sound and good humoured retailers. You have only yourself to blame for not listening.You have verbally abused and challenged those people who would and could have helped you. Understand the true mathematical meaning of logic...you appear to be taking and using the word at an emotional level. True practice of logic is the very opposite of emotional response.
I said I would start ignoring these posts...

buttttt this is too good to not call out...

"Understand the true mathematical meaning of logic"

....What? Do you even know what you are saying?

"You have only yourself to blame for not listening"

Oh I listen... Unfortunately, most people don't have anything of value to say or write posts like this one...

"You have not listened to a word of advice from people (not myself) who are recognised throughout the factory as being sound and good humoured retailers. You have only yourself to blame for not listening.You have verbally abused and challenged those people who would and could have helped you. Understand the true mathematical meaning of logic...you appear to be taking and using the word at an emotional level. True practice of logic is the very opposite of emotional response."

Which are pretty much worthless...

I tried to be civil at first but for your own sake please refrain from posting rants about how I write or respond to other posts, I really hope you have better things to do with your time. And maybe pick up a book (actually read it, dont use it as a coaster), learn how to spell english words (because that's what we speak on this forum), and then you might be able to contribute to this thread (sweet!)...

Sorry, TRIED to be nice. But people keep posting worthless comments, with no real content on trading.
  • #175
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:47pm Jul 26, 2011 1:47pm
Quoting HiddenGap
Your premise is flawed. It does not need to predict anything to have value.

Price is reallity.

We only get two things from the exchanges- PRICE & VOLUME.

Leaving volume aside for a second, everything every trader knows about the market is reflected in price. Everything the market knows about itself in its price. Price reflects the effects of volume, of open interest, of everything. All fundamentals are contained in price. Supply and Demand are contained in price. PRICE is what IS.

To respond to a previous point. Here's a little story-swear...
What you just said is a claim that supports perfectly efficient markets, which means there is no way to exploit price for what it is..

Countpoint?
  • #176
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:48pm Jul 26, 2011 1:48pm
Quoting superdezign
True

Terrible speller, but this guy is one of the only person that has given me anything of value here...

Yes, traders overreact to news, but I would not call that TA

What part of TA helps to exploit this?
Candlestick patterns, they show that probably recation is over and price should get back into equilibrium. They wont give right signal every time, so we must use money menagement, and after few houndreds or thousands of trades, it is posible to be in bigger profit than pasive FA investor.
  • #177
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:51pm Jul 26, 2011 1:51pm
Quoting smittens4212
I think the best way to go about the argument then would be to address specific elements of price action. For one thing, it's a very vague term, and I think that's what Cindy was getting at when she said it can work for one and not another; two traders who claim to be using "price action" but are actually trading in two very different ways.

So as I used in my example above, take stop-hunting for instance. It can be extraordinarly easy, and I bet you'd agree here, to determine where the 'herd' will be placing their stops, or heck, just their...
That might be true, you have a point, but that is still not using TA to trade.

Hope to hear more from you
  • #178
  • Jul 26, 2011 1:55pm Jul 26, 2011 1:55pm
Quoting future
Candlestick patterns, they show that probably recation is over and price should get back into equilibrium. They wont give right signal every time, so we must use money menagement, and after few houndreds or thousands of trades, it is posible to be in bigger profit than pasive FA investor.
When price is out of equilibrium price (markets) moves to correct itself. Price is always moving. Price is always out of equilibrium.

So how do candlesticks become a predictor of where price will move next?
  • #179
  • Jul 26, 2011 2:01pm Jul 26, 2011 2:01pm
Quoting superdezign
Every trader I have talked to who is a technical trader has been unable to answer this one simple question:
Why does you system work?
Quoting superdezign
This thread is about points and counterpoints against the logic of TA and PA through logic statements...
Well, then I think the thread could be much shorter than it is
I do not know whom did you ask but I, being a very rookie trader can give you a pretty straight answer to the question you posed in the first post of the thread.
Why, dear Sir, PA and TA works simply because people are using it and believing it will work. Fibonacci levels do not work that reliantly because they're derived from a beautiful mathematical formula. They work because lots of people uses them to place their orders, stop losses and take profits. Therefore stuff usually happens to price at these levels.
The same goes for R/S, trendlines, etc.
You can of course ignore it and completely disregard PA and technicals - somebody has to leave their money at those levers for the technical traders to pick it up
  • #180
  • Jul 26, 2011 2:03pm Jul 26, 2011 2:03pm
Quoting superdezign
Price action -- using a collection of condensed and organized price data to observe and analyze the price movements in the market

It's "dumb" (apologize for the crude language) -- because I do not think it has any predictive properties.

Counterpoint?
Okay , we might have a little problem here , because am not too sure If you would consider VOLUME or Tick activity as a reliable variable to the equation..


Now, where do I Begin -
Here are my quotes from Yesterday ..Using the Predictive Properties of the variables Price , time & wait for it - VOLUME

Quoting taomql4
..... Hopefully demand holds ........
..And what they all said I should do next ..
You Probably think am crazy , Right ? How am I suppose to do my work without PA ...
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