Want to be a professional trader

Hey everyone, Ive been trading forex for the past several months being successful overall. I am from toronto canada and have just read the Toronto Star's (local newpaper) Online Trading section special which got me thinking, are there degree courses or college diplomas dedicated to this field? Maybe not forex in specific but possibly financial trading in general geared toward online/personal investing. I think that would be a great path for me to follow as I am a 21 year old university student looking for different options and my thinking is it would be nice to have a degree or something in the subject I have great interest for. Any insight will be greatly appreciated.



Stefan416

If it were me I would look to complete a degree in finance or economics instead. These two degrees would give you the opportunity to work in a wide variety of industries, including trading for large firms. I have never heard of a degree in trading (although that doesn't necessarily mean anything). However I would worry that the specificity of the degree would limit my job choices down the road if trading didn't work out. Just my two cents.

How good are you at math?

Good point. What else does quantitative finance get used for? Risk modelling..?

I wanted to do a grad dip in quantitative finance a few years back, but they pretty much looked at me funny as my background was computing science (and i don't have a head for maths.. i always figured that's what computers were there to do ). Its high maths first.

I did do a grad dip in applied finance though, funnily enough with the idea that trading was going to be the end of it. Since i'm not trading fundamentals, most of that theory is largely not put to practice, but i don't regret it for a second. And probably would recommended something like that for TA trading (and non employed trading) even, if only because financial markets are such a massive complex construct.. doing some level of formal finance course will at least show you one of everything and give you the complete map to whats flying around on a daily basis.

When you read economic news (or pure financial news, such as the gfc), you can actually understand the details of whats going on, which i find very valuable.

Guess a big factor is how much of a 'geek' you are. To computers, do you need to know that your pc has memory, a processor, operating system etc in it to be able to use it? Strictly speaking you don't, but personally i -like- knowing those kind of things. And when something goes wrong, the weight of knowledge helps to fix the problem.

Hell forbid.. if thinking about paying someone or something to help you trade.. say some of those people who offer to teach you how to trade for many thousands.. do the school course and teach yourself how to trade from books, forums and market practice. The grad dip cost about as much as some of these shonky people were charging for their few week courses..

2 cents.

Yeah I had actually looked at a few of those "courses". specifically "Online Trading academy" (onlinetradingacademy.com) which has an education center in toronto. From what I've heard though, most of these courses and programs are a sham and are more of a waste of money. Right now Im in the process of applying for Business which would most likely lead to Business Finance. What Im basically looking for is a way to have pretty much the same skill set as a trader fora big company (not counting quants). For all I know my head is clouded with the vision of traders from movies and all trading for big corporations is is sophisticated analyzing of information.

All in all im looking to become a well rounded trader and knowing what Im doing because right now I feel like Im walking through the fog stumbling without guidance. I know there must be a set way a full time trader does his/her thing even though it might be slightly different for each individual ie: a schedule of what has to be done (keeping up to date with news etc). I just feel like I need mentorship

Nice one.

You're on the right track by getting on a good forum and reading/asking.

I know how you feel exactly. I'm pretty sure what kept me going though was having done a similar skillup with computers over the last 15 years (im 31). Just getting into various aspects, and trying things, will over time lead to a very strong level of knowledge and experience.

The only problem with that approach, is its incredibly inefficient. You do gain depth of knowledge you wouldn't get without that interest and time (as experience is experience after all), but probably moreso with trading (as the outcomes and the risks are much more focused) getting there via the best path is much more interesting.

From my experiences (ive been looking into trading as i do for about 4-5 years now) the biggest mistake i made to the learning process was trying to solo it.. Sitting infront of the markets night after night, and learning from inside your own head (and your resources of course) will take forever. The problems with mechanical trading aren't exactly logical.. or at least, say if you're writing a computer program (or website, whatever), its very immediate. Something doesn't work.. then suddenly it does. It definitely helps to be able to nut things out with others.

Trading isn't that clear cut.. conceptually trading works in terms of probabilities rather than absolutes.. which makes the development more tricky. Another aspect of trading which will confuse you is there are as many successful ways to trade as there are people trading successfully. Unless you're in the same room as the person, when looking at online sources, its much better (pretty much required) to look at all the info and rather than following the leader, applying it to your own approach (while staying objective.. if somethings better its better). Course that means you're going to have your own approach in the first place..

Lost? Well, asking myself the question now.. to me at least there are 3 main aspects of trading:
- The method/technique you use to make decisions about entering and exiting the market.
- The business process side of things (logging, risk management, getting your platforms and tools sorted etc)
- The psychological aspect of trading.

Developing the method and technique that works for you, and makes you money out of the market is the most important part.

Perhaps as a start, look at the tools you have that are able to help you make a trading decision. This is basically fundamental information (understand how economic data moves currencies), and technical analysis techniques (specifically, chart patterns (dow theory etc), trendline techniqiues (drawing them, and support and resistance), candesticks, and then finally indicators).

One you've got a reasonably good understanding of these tools that will help you make a trading decision, look at them all, and see the ones that make sense for you personally.

At the same time, grab a chart, at a timeframe that suits you, and look for price movements you believe you can catch. Then look to see which indicators reliably will lead you to knowing when these moments in the price action occur.

Note: if you do the above 2 paragraphs, you'll find that the problem is very complex, many more factors come into play. just let that be the high level guide.

Then practice. Lots. Get a something where you can replay price charts. Theres also a really strong chance you'll loop though the above steps with new info from your practice.. and there you go.

Well, if i can suggest anything which im sure is universally valid, check out these books:
- Technical analysis of the financial markets by John Murphy Very easy read, and while written decades ago is so very very current. Its the nuts and bolts of how prices move. Also applied every moment you're trading, even if you're trading fundamentally.
- Enhancing Trader Performance by Brett Steenbarger. This one is more about attitude/psychology/approach. Well worth it. If it clicks, trading coach book is also excellent, if it doesn't, i think everyone needs to hear that content at least once.

Anyways. Hope this helps. And i also really hope if there are others who don't think this way and read this post please chime in. I was soloing this for a long time.. any other views always welcome.

Very important, compulsory to get this right even, but that comes after your trading method. Why do i know this? Spent way way way to long getting this part right. And there's so much good stuff you can do in terms of this. But that doesn't teach you how to trade.. just supports it.

Having said.. i'm so damn chuffed with my business processes for trading.. Its damn good.

Ok, now I see. I thought there was a real college offering trading courses. I have not attended OTA. However I did pay 3 grand for an online trading course a couple years ago, and learned not a thing more then the free education you can get at babypips.com. I would be very hesitant to pay anyone else any significant amount of money after that incident.

I am a Sam Seiden/Supply&Demand follower. I have run across a few people on FF who have taken his courses at the online trading academy and say they are worth the money. Problem is, you will spend 15 grand doing this and you still might not be a good trader. I have spent some time trading pure touches of supply and demand levels like the Seiden traders do and have not been too successful at it. I have recently decided to incorporate this stuff with James16 PA off of the daily and weekly charts.

Here are a few links, if you are looking for Seiden style trading that the OTA teaches.


These are his free webinars, supply and demand trading is his area of focus. Even if you don't trade supply and demand the way he does, understanding it will help you see how the markets work.

http://www.fxstreet.com/search/contr...1-e9bf77216d2f

This thread is full of Seiden style traders, one of them in particular is/was an OTA student, he goes by bbaker

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...230888&page=11

This is the James16 thread, if you aren't familiar with it. James16 offers a month by month private forum for about $130 that I would consider joining, however all of the stuff he teaches he makes available for free at this thread. You just have to dig a little, and if you are looking for a mentor this would be the place to go. I ran into this thread a few years ago and ignored it cause they advocate longer timeframe trading. I was interested in day trading and was convinced I could do it. Bottom line, I failed, now I am back at this thread (just posted my first trade J16 trade this morning as a matter of fact). Wish I would have stuck with it 3 years ago. I think I would be miles ahead of where I am now.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=2331

Hope this is helpful for you, I wish I could help you by sharing my successes unfortunately (for me) all I have to teach is failure and futility up to this point. Hope you can avoid some of the pain and heartache.

Stockmarcus,

Thankyou for your lengthy and though provoking insight into forex. I think Im on the right track with trying to develop my own method and not just trying to carbon copy a system (although in the past month i have been using "trading made simple" which does in fact seem to be profitable if I could just stick to the 4 hour chart and not make things complicated lol). I will definitely take a look at those two books and see what i can learn from them.

Holmes,
I wish universities offered specific programs on trading in financial markets, Id jump on that like my cat on chicken haha. Like i had said and you as well as most confirm, spending all this money on various educations/systems seems to be going in an unnecessary direction. I was looking for a course that pretty much pointed me in the right direction with how a professional trader would go about trading on a daily basis -- scanning news, analyzing charts etc. I've actually just finished a neat book -- Adventures of a Currency Trader. I must say I highly recommend it. Its basically about a fictional person that gets introduced to forex and does the usual mistakes only to be guided by some pros. evidently he becomes a pro trader liek he dreamed. the best thing about it is that the book has underlying education (basic at that ) about trading.

I definitely have to give that "Seiden trading" a browse. to be honest I've never even heard of it, but that doesn't surprise me since I haven't been in the game that long.

As for James16 it seems that I indeed have a love hate relationship with that thread/method. this is going to be the third time I come back to it. the first was in my earliest days and shrugged it off, the second I definitely spent some time with it and it was actually making some sense to me but because of school full time I couldnt dedicate my time to it like I wanted. Now its summer and I think Im going to sign up for their Private Forum finally. it is quite a bit of money (seeing as Im a uni student) but in the long run Im hoping it will be worth it. From all the info and posts on the first page it seems like James16 it what a true trader needs to do to become successful in the long run since it doesnt depend on indicators and special gizmos, just the brain.


Now thats one lengthy post. Again I thank you all for your insight!
Happy Trading

I have read that one, it is on my sagging shelf of trading books.

The Seiden stuff is what the online trading academy is all about (at least for forex). I think the price is out of control, but I believe the theory behind what they teach is solid. The webinars from Sam will help with the J16 stuff. J16 is all about price action at support and resistance (supply and demand) levels. Sam Seiden doesn't even care about price action he just looks for great levels, sets a pending order and goes out to water the grass (or so he says).

He has a live webinar tomorrow at Fx street btw, it is free to attend. Although, do not give them your real phone number otherwise you will get a call from OTA every other day They are worse then a collections agency.

Yeah you probably are. Good luck!

The only last tip then is, if you're subscribing to a particular method somewhere, generally any content that makes you feel bad (or making them seem holy) by nagging about common trading mistakes (or anything) isn't adding anything useful to your life. Like when talking with a real estate agent, you only want the key information from the whirlwind of crap.

For trading, what you want is direct, specific information on what "indicators" could potentially lead to a tradable price move. A lead by example into applying the combination is also nice But that's it. However you approach it, you're going to have to practice it anyway.. you can get whined at about the mistakes you're going to make anyway before you start, or just just do it and take the experience.

Also, be sure to check what you're getting taught, if you're getting taught the basics. That first book will do a better job than any to actually teach you that when you draw a line, it goes here, or when you see a price pattern, it means this.

If paying for something, what you're going to be wanting to get is beyond that.. the nuances of working with the particular methods of trading, what markets at what times does the idea work best, what times to avoid etc, how to see the same market on heavy days vs quiet days etc. etc. etc. the more refined application of the method, not just the basics of what it is

This forum seems to have many techniques documented. And its free. Just make sure you get more than what you can get for free, for your money!

Hello,
i was in the same situation like you, highly motivated with no knowledge of Forex when i was 20. I think that if you really want to be successful you should be ready to work really hard. For me best school how to trade wasnt any smart book or course, but trading I started with small real account (demo account will not teach you like real, because when you lost money, you will be angry and you will want to learn more) and i trade 3 months all summer holidays ... everyday from London to end of NewYork session. When something wasnt clear for me i found it at internet. You should be ready to break out several accounts .. the most important thing is not give up! It takes a time. I personally started with fundamental trading (news) and now im scalping. I love it, because you know result in several minute and sometimes it is full of adrenalin

Lol. Just searched around for the 'models and bottles' idea. Pretty funny stuff.

The cartoon probably has it more right though. If you were going to find a employed job doing this, a trader would be much more interesting than being a financial analyst.. thought maybe not..

If there was a way to "learn" trading outright everyone would be rich.

You can "learn" how to play soccer in classroom, the rules, technique. but it will take you years of hardwork and some luck even to become a ronaldo or a beckham or rooney, same deal with trading.

stefan:

Go to your Uni's library, and check out Market Wizards, New Market Wizards, and Stock Market Wizards. Read the profiles of some of the best in the business, and see how they got there. That might help you chart your path.