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VSA with Clifton

  • #121
  • Jun 22, 2011 7:35am Jun 22, 2011 7:35am
Quoting frankkn
EU M1 SPT
Hi Mike,

Before I make any comment I would like to say that I have no intention of 'bashing' anyone or any system. I understand that Clifton interprets VSA differently to some, and thats fine by me.

Having said that, You have made an error on you chart which I would like to point out. I'm pointing it out, not for the sake of it but, so you can understand that there maybe another bar which you are not familiar with which might help you and others in your quest for learning.

The bar you marked as 'Stopping Volume' is actually a 'Selling Climax' defined as - a very wide spread down bar closing off the lows on ultra high volume. Found during a down move.

Ok you will probably know that I like to get the terminology correct, but I won't stuff it down your throat. The whole point of the post is this:-

If the spread was much narrower (less than average) on the same or similar volume, that would be 'Stopping Volume'. It doesn't matter where the close is except to say that an up move will generally come sooner if it closes on the highs.

A Selling Climax is misslabled very often as Stopping volume and it's normally because traders don't really know what the difference is. It is a little like the 'End of a Rising Market' but the market reacts a little differently to each due to market dynamics.

I hope this has been useful to you, and I didn't bog you down too much with terminology!
  • #122
  • Jun 22, 2011 7:45am Jun 22, 2011 7:45am
Quoting Intel
Hi Mike,

Before I make any comment I would like to say that I have no intention of 'bashing' anyone or any system. I understand that Clifton interprets VSA differently to some, and thats fine by me.

Having said that, You have made an error on you chart which I would like to point out. I'm pointing it out, not for the sake of it but, so you can understand that there maybe another bar which you are not familiar with which might help you and others in your quest for learning.

The bar you marked as 'Stopping Volume' is actually a 'Selling Climax'...
Hey pal,

Thank you for the clarification.

May I ask what the point is of knowing the difference between them? The reason I pay attention to bars like that is because it helps me get a feel for the presence of buyers/sellers at a given level. To my trading, the levels that these patterns occur is primary to my trading, although not present on that chart.

Quote
A Selling Climax is misslabled very often as Stopping volume and it's normally because traders don't really know what the difference is. It is a little like the 'End of a Rising Market' but the market reacts a little differently to each due to market dynamics.

Care to elaborate on what you mean by the blue words here?

I appreciate you taking the time to share, you don't come across like you're bashing anybody or anything like that
  • #123
  • Jun 22, 2011 7:53am Jun 22, 2011 7:53am
Quoting frankkn
EU M1 SPT
In addition to the mis-labeling of the selling climax, I'd like to mention that Oanda's volume tends to make climactic bars even more climactic lol.

In a context of larger time frame supply and demand levels always: When I see ultra high volume on a down bar, it tells me the professional side of the market is active.

 

  1. If the bar closes on its lows, the pros may be absorbing demand

    1. be ready for a break, then testing ( doesn't matter if TW considers testing for supply or not, if it is valid for demand it is valid for supply)

  2. If the bar closes off of the lows or in the middle

    1. be ready for confirming price action (not just VSA)

  3. I always consider longer time frame supply and demand dynamic before coming to this level of analysis

I'm just putting down my train of thought so we can all be on the same page

  • #124
  • Jun 22, 2011 8:03am Jun 22, 2011 8:03am
This is EU H4, H1, and M5. We've got interest rates in an hour and a half.

I'm posting these charts to elaborate on my train of thought with trading volume. This is not VSA necessarily so I'd like to get that out of the way.

This circled bar's volume is ultra high (Oanda may be exaggerating it a little, however). This bar is a hint that the pros were active during that period of time, and also during this bar price reached an area of supply.

I'd imagine that this volume consisted of some fresh shorts but most likely profit taking ahead of the interest rate announcement in an hour an a half.

I'm watching for fresh supply to hit the market. After there is fresh supply I'd be interested in watching volume for entries.

This is the role volume plays in my analysis.

To clarify that is a H4 supply level, I'll be looking for fresh supply levels forming on the M10/15/30 minute charts. When and if price rallies to these areas I'll be looking for price action following climactic volume (from M5/10/15) to enter.

But then again this supply level may not hold. If that happens then there won't be any fresh supply levels. There may be new demand levels if that happens however, and I'll do the same thing I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Definitely not VSA, but taking principles of it and incorporating it into my trading.
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  • #125
  • Jun 22, 2011 8:18am Jun 22, 2011 8:18am
Very nice inputs from frankkn and Intel.

I'm willing to discuss a bit about the stopping volume and the climax. Very often, we see in a down move ( same applied for up move), price suddenly behaves quite climatic in a certain supply/demand level (I believe frankkn is very good at spotting those levels), the climatic behavior reflects in volume which is high compared to the surrounding area, then it could be either absorption or stopping volume, we'll know it by watching the following pa. Consider it's stopping volume (the definition mentioned by Intel), price will stall for a while before it makes a final thrush downwards, the SM has 2 targets :

- Stop Loss by those who long early at demand/ supply level
- Breakout trader

So, here we have the selling climax, again with very high volume, it could be form by a wide spread bar closing off its high ( shakeout) or by 2 wide spread bar reversal, or even 3 bar.

That being said, many vsa traders predict the move right but sl still being hit. As Dr.G once said, if you place entry at your sl, you'll surprise by the result

Very nice input Intel, I'm a fan of your videos.

For those who's new to vsa, don't read too much into this definitions, first, you need to identify the phase which Clifton is going to post later.
More to come
  • #126
  • Jun 22, 2011 8:32am Jun 22, 2011 8:32am
Here's a M1 of the past 20 minutes since I posted that chart

The marked bars show professional activity, nothing more and nothing less. I prefer waiting to see the result of this volume. I'm not a scalper so I'm willing to wait for things to play out more.

Don't forget big news in an hour, by the time NY closes we may or may not have some fresh levels. If the institutions don't step in at this level, the next daily supply is 160 pips north of where we are now.
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  • #127
  • Edited 8:42am Jun 22, 2011 8:40am | Edited 8:42am
Quote
we'll know it by watching the following pa.
Yes preceding PA and following PA are both important. For new volume traders, VSA traders call it (preceding) background. Also for new volume guys, click on Intel's name and then click on charts. There's a wealth of VSA info written directly on the charts, pure and distilled.

Quote
the SM
Another clarification for new volume traders, SM means smart money and is a reference to the market-moving institutions.

I'd like to point out that only some of the market movers operate intraday, many other market movers are in for bigger moves.

Stop loss levels are important, and are sometimes faded and sometimes they are not. They are a more advanced topic, and intuition is really needed before you know if SM is going to use stops for liquidity or for a cascade.
  • #128
  • Jun 22, 2011 8:44am Jun 22, 2011 8:44am
Quoting frankkn
Here's a M1 of the past 20 minutes since I posted that chart

The marked bars show professional activity, nothing more and nothing less. I prefer waiting to see the result of this volume. I'm not a scalper so I'm willing to wait for things to play out more.

Don't forget big news in an hour, by the time NY closes we may or may not have some fresh levels. If the institutions don't step in at this level, the next daily supply is 160 pips north of where we are now.

Here's a followup on that volume. Remember this is a M1 chart and I'm only watching it to see what the result of climactic volume is at this supply level (larger TF)

We have FOMC in 45 mins, maybe some insiders are positioning themselves? Or is this move down just the result of traders closing their longs in anticipation of the news?

Edit:

We also need to keep an eye on the reaction to this new volume.
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  • #129
  • Jun 22, 2011 8:49am Jun 22, 2011 8:49am
Quoting frankkn
Hey pal,

Thank you for the clarification.

May I ask what the point is of knowing the difference between them? The reason I pay attention to bars like that is because it helps me get a feel for the presence of buyers/sellers at a given level. To my trading, the levels that these patterns occur is primary to my trading, although not present on that chart.



Care to elaborate on what you mean by the blue words here?

I appreciate you taking the time to share, you don't come across like you're bashing anybody or anything like that ...

The 'point of knowing' is simply to have a better understanding of what SM are doing and therefore thier probable future intentions. It is the same as the 'point of knowing' any VSA at all!

Whilst an EORM and a SV can look very similar (but obviously at different ends of the market), they wont ALWAYS look the same. Also in general, the market will react much quicker to an EORM than a SV. If you ever see a genuine EORM, you could short it immediately fairly safely. However, you should NOT long a SV until you have extra confirmation.
  • #130
  • Jun 22, 2011 8:53am Jun 22, 2011 8:53am
Quoting Intel
the market will react much quicker to an EORM than a SV.
Thank you brother this is what I was looking for, please don't hesitate to jump in on anything and share your point of view.

I was very hesitant to start posting in this thread because of the negative vibe that is all over the beginning, but I think we can shake it off so that we can all learn from each other.
  • #131
  • Jun 22, 2011 8:57am Jun 22, 2011 8:57am
Hope to hear more from you here, Intel.
I'll post whatever I know too.
  • #132
  • Edited 9:45am Jun 22, 2011 9:05am | Edited 9:45am
More charts guys

Are we going to spike into this brand spanking new M15 that just formed during FOMC?

I know this is not VSA but it is supply/demand/volume, hope it's ok to share here.

Edit:

Just re-read that post, I'd like to clarify that I meant M15 supply level

Also it sounds like I was saying the level formed during FOMC, it didn't it formed before. Also I meant that the spike may happen during FOMC just to be clear, sorry for the strange wording
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  • #133
  • Jun 22, 2011 9:53am Jun 22, 2011 9:53am
Quoting frankkn
More charts guys

Are we going to spike into this brand spanking new M15 that just formed during FOMC?

I know this is not VSA but it is supply/demand/volume, hope it's ok to share here.

Edit:

Just re-read that post, I'd like to clarify that I meant M15 supply level

Also it sounds like I was saying the level formed during FOMC, it didn't it formed before. Also I meant that the spike may happen during FOMC just to be clear, sorry for the strange wording
Interesting volume, looks like they may be preparing to run the stops above 4450 for liquidity. Happens to be smack dab in the middle of H4 supply
  • #134
  • Jun 22, 2011 10:30am Jun 22, 2011 10:30am
Quoting Intel
The 'point of knowing' is simply to have a better understanding of what SM are doing and therefore thier probable future intentions. It is the same as the 'point of knowing' any VSA at all!

Whilst an EORM and a SV can look very similar (but obviously at different ends of the market), they wont ALWAYS look the same. Also in general, the market will react much quicker to an EORM than a SV. If you ever see a genuine EORM, you could short it immediately fairly safely. However, you should NOT long a SV until you have extra confirmation.
Hi Intel,
would be very nice when you could add a chart with a stopping vol candle.
  • #135
  • Edited 1:48pm Jun 22, 2011 1:19pm | Edited 1:48pm
Quoting Intel
The 'point of knowing' is simply to have a better understanding of what SM are doing and therefore thier probable future intentions...
Intel, I'm happy to see you contributing here!

By definition, an "End of a rising market" (EORM) must be on a narrow bar with high volume as price moves into higher territory, during an up trend.

The LOGIC there is that high volume during an up move, that doesn't cause much progress up, is due do increasing selling activity. You could almost say that SM gladly sold for profit to the herd, at an awefull price to be buying. Mainly breakout traders and greedy fools adding to their longs. (See..I can hang with the big boys lol)

In my case, "stopping volume" is simply the label I give to: A significant increase in volume to stop a trending move. I'm sure the logic behind that is obvious.

I personally don't enter right away on a EORM (wow, now that's picking a top!) so as far as my setups, it can be lumped together with the general "stopping volume". (less guessing and mush brain)

How can I call it VSA if I'm not following the definitions to the letter? Because I'm still Analyzing Volume and Spread. If it makes people happy, we can call it AVS lol!
  • #136
  • Jun 22, 2011 2:22pm Jun 22, 2011 2:22pm
Quoting frankkn
EU M1 SPT
Very nice! 1 min chart ay? Hey, why not...it's fractal.
  • #137
  • Edited 3:50pm Jun 22, 2011 2:25pm | Edited 3:50pm
Quoting duyk20
15m chart:

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/...nluv/esdsd.gif

And 5m chart show a long set-up besides the earlier one posted by Clifton.

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/...nluv/egffd.gif
This is great! 100%, excellent. Although the highest volume wasn't at the bottom on the 5 min, demand was certainly shown before the entry setup.

Where you marked "add to position" was the actual Stop, Push, Test (SPT) entry. Just draw a line on that previous pin top for the supply line.

The first no supply that you marked (gotcha) is also a valid entry because it appeared once price started trending up. Just to point out, if it was near or at the low, I would pass on it. (Could mean lack of buying)
  • #138
  • Jun 22, 2011 7:43pm Jun 22, 2011 7:43pm
Quoting frankkn
This is EU H4, H1, and M5. We've got interest rates in an hour and a half.

I'm posting these charts to elaborate on my train of thought with trading volume. This is not VSA necessarily so I'd like to get that out of the way.

This circled bar's volume is ultra high (Oanda may be exaggerating it a little, however). This bar is a hint that the pros were active during that period of time, and also during this bar price reached an area of supply.

I'd imagine that this volume consisted of some fresh shorts but most likely profit taking ahead...
This analysis is so spot on. A simple understanding of supply and demand and how SM operates.
  • #139
  • Edited 9:18am Jun 23, 2011 9:00am | Edited 9:18am
Here is what i have today, today is about effort and result from my understanding.

On 20/06, we have a push through a very important level: previous bottom and previous top. Zoom in 4h chart, the level being respected many time.

The high volume push is effort to rise, whether effort delivers result is to be seen. Price then comes back to test the level, we like the comeback move (reactive move) to have small volume, which show lack of selling, then a stopping volume at the level, it's golden set-up and prove that effort is successful. Price then come back again, we have a good long again.

Having had the effort and result, but the following movement is what i don't like of a healthy move, price is not ready to go, it drags slowly to supply level in a slight angle, SM not interested in the upmove. Then, as expected, it formed a spring (fake breakout whatever), then drop hard. It's not like SM short it, it's more like they unwind their long since they are not interested in the upmove yet, not because their intention to short it imo

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/...luv/eu10-1.gif


This kind of price structure happens quite often, as SM not interested in either direction, they will drag price slowly, then drop it hard and fast, zoom in 1h of GU chart we could see ( A spring happens very often also)

As Clifton said, the fake breakout candle must have high volume and then go right back into range. SM have done their job slaughter the herd lol
  • #140
  • Jun 24, 2011 12:04pm Jun 24, 2011 12:04pm
i am trying to add vsa to my trading weapons as i come from S/R trading

i have question about this setup

http://www.ps.wol-clan.de/img/picshare_1308941585.png

the upbar following the stop volume has higher volume as the stopping volume bar, so does this make the stopping volume bar not valid anymore?

cause as it turned out price is moving not up but sideways even there was a nice no demand bar

or are there other volume based warning signs that price might enter consolidation?
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