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Real Fx traders do not use stoploss

  • #61
  • May 31, 2011 9:13pm May 31, 2011 9:13pm
i can't P.M you for some reason.

P.M me we could chat privately, lets stop cluttering the thread.

the OP wanted to know if big forex players used stop losses.

i made my self clear on this matter. (if i stop taking losses of course i wont lose? yea thats what trading is all about)

positive equity growth, stop taking unecessary losses, stop losses make you take unessesary losses.

but like i said, P.M me, we could talk about this between you and, me

you might have points or arguments that might be interesting to me, and i might be able to assist you become profitable.

good luck
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #62
  • May 31, 2011 9:24pm May 31, 2011 9:24pm
there's nothing wrong with suggesting someone AT A BANK doesn't trade with stoplosses. but you can't then imply that this is the way everyone should, or even can, trade in the markets. they are opposing interests, capabilities, and most of all... capitalization!

i truly don't know why you can't pm me. you aren't the first to say that, yet i still get pm's from various members seemingly without any issue whatsoever. i can only put this down to some issue with the forum code which, as a simple fact, does contain a minor bug or two.

whatever points i may or may not have that you do or do not find value in i can assure you can be found in my post history. i can't imagine there being anything i haven't already said at some time already. you are welcome to it, truly. however, clearly your mindset and approach is not going to yield anything i am at this time searching for, so thanks, but no at this time.

like i said, you may make a success of this... if you have the funds to pull it off and a little good fortune. if you don't have the funds and good fortune then you are going to hurt.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #63
  • May 31, 2011 9:37pm May 31, 2011 9:37pm
its not good fortune noobcake,
its mathematical calculations.

phi to pi ratio,

phi= 1.618

my progressive attack sequence is 1,1,2,3 that is a total of 7 lots in the market correct? the reason for phi progression is that it takes 50% retrace to wipe out foreign capital.
the idea is to risk the markets money not your own.

each lot or position needs to be backed up by a pi skew 3.14

so in essense the rescue snowball is agressive 31.8% retrace brings you to break even, so in fact if you have more lots in the market than can be succesfully rescued, you are over extended.

no matter what number of troops (lots) are in the market. i can succesfuly rescue my lots at all time with a small account.

i think this is what you are focusing on, the averaging in and out.

one cannot be succesfull at this unless one learns to identify, direction, identify market form (volatility, ranges, strong up or down trend) etc.
one needs to be grounded in dow theory, to understand short term, medium and longterm price movement. elliot wave is helpful for reference, support and resistance (usually stting duck levels are below these zones) so spikes up and down are expected and one can capitalize on these. be aware of price patterns, formation, candle patterns, MA's, in fact.
fti doesnt say that indicators are bad, one needs to UNDERSTAND THEM, and use them in a way that does not obstruct the view of price movement, and not to take trades BECAUSE of indicators, take them because YOUR BRAIN, AND YOUR ANALYSIS, IS OBJECTIVE AND CONTINUOUS,

the idea is to learn to trade in the right direction, at the right timing, and do progressive attack sequences that helps you risk only foreign capital.

however sometimes that is not possible and a missed timed position is innacted, granted the ONGOING analysis still points to continuation in the intended direction one can rescue the attack and re instate at a better time.

one attemps to be strategic, and place orders with the least amount of risk, however understanding how to troubleshoot a bad trade.

the key and what im learning is to dance with the market, its all flexibility, and adaptability. one needs to understand correlations, in the majors, in gold, oil etc. fundamental analysis, and use all information in objective recognition of market form. learn not to predict but to go with the flow of the market.
understand that every tick brings new information and data changes continuosly so a rigid system is in fact innefective.

those are fti teaching in a nutshell. now tell me how this is bad? or innefective?

and the use of egor, is us, first and fore most if i lose a trade, either my ego, greed fear got the best of me, or my analysis was flawed, or i did not adapt to changing market condition. the responsibility is ALL MINE.

what is wrong with that?
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #64
  • May 31, 2011 9:58pm May 31, 2011 9:58pm
Quoting the redlion
its not good fortune noobcake,
good one. very clever.

Quote
its mathematical calculations.

phi to pi ratio,...
nothing that you just presented is new to me. please stop trying to school me in fti's dogma and methodology. if i was unsure of something i would ask a question or i would just "read the first 200 pages" as is always the go-to backup mantra when no one can be bothered answering with a straight-forward answer, right?

Quote
what is wrong with that?
nothing is wrong with what you presented. it is perfectly fine. that is, until the market or does something you aren't prepared to deal with and burns you, or something in REAL LIFE drags you away from the charts and restricts you from doing a damn thing about any open trades.

it is precisely the example i gave about riding a harley along a highway with no protective gear. you can be fine for a long, long, time. then one day something happens that you have no control over and you get punished!

people in plenty of countries are required by law to wear seatbelts in cars. a stoploss is like a seatbelt. you use seatbelts and sometimes it rubs your neck and leaves a scratch or feels uncomfortable or it is not working properly and is difficult to disengage it's auto-momentum locking mechanism or it creases your nice new clothes, and so on. that doesn't mean it doesn't serve a life and death purpose. for all of it's downsides there is a reason to always wear a seatbelt. some people might be lucky enough to never need it. others, well, life happens! an airbag (mental stop) isn't going to save someone not wearing a setbelt if they get flung out of the window and into oncoming traffic.

my point is either made, or it's not. continue with your studies and trading. if you are fortunate you will never be in the market when an accident occurs which would have required you to be wearing a seatbelt. why you walk a tightrope without a safety net is mind-boggling.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #65
  • May 31, 2011 10:09pm May 31, 2011 10:09pm
ok dude, you must have been in the debate team.

because all you want to do is argue. i you claim that you are not profitable but not unintelligent.

i think you lack the willingness to learn and become profitable. there is no reason to lose a trade, and if a black swan event ever happened, i think i could deal with it (not over leveraged).

maybe not the lack of intelligence is what makes you unprofitable, but the rigidity and the quickness to argue and not listen. your position is stop loss HAS TO BE IN PLACE.

my position is that if you need a stop loss, you are not watching your trade properly.

so i will leave it at this, i tried helping you, i tried teaching you.
you just want to argue with me. and i got more important things to do.

see ya
AVT INVENIAM VIAM AVT FACIAM
  • #66
  • May 31, 2011 10:21pm May 31, 2011 10:21pm
*shrug* that's your perception and the way you dismiss facts and simple reasoning. you have learned well from fti's thread on how to ignore reason

no skin off my nose. not in the slightest. people either see things or they don't. what you have presented, i SEE. what i have presented, you have dismissed as folly.

to each their own. if you were trading in a bank then you would be fine.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #67
  • May 31, 2011 10:56pm May 31, 2011 10:56pm
"Trading in the old-fashioned bucket shop had some decided advantages over speculating in a reputable broker's office. For one thing, the automatic closing out of your trade when the margin reached the exhaustion point was the best kind of stop-loss order." - Jesse Livermore
The Thief of Wall Street
  • #68
  • May 31, 2011 11:07pm May 31, 2011 11:07pm
Quoting Chicky
"Trading in the old-fashioned bucket shop had some decided advantages over speculating in a reputable broker's office. For one thing, the automatic closing out of your trade when the margin reached the exhaustion point was the best kind of stop-loss order." - Jesse Livermore
what is the context of that quote? if this was his bucket shop raiding days then this implies that he was not trading big money because they shut him down once he started making noticeable profits.

to me it seems to be completely conflicting to some of what has been presented around the place. redlion's beliefs, and the origins of his beliefs, should enforce him to be using a very large account and not playing pennies in a bucket shop.

did, or do you think would, livermore endorse the same mindset with a large account? it's conflicting for me because he undoubtedly made lots of coin, but in the same vein also lost it all multiple times and then gave himself an uppercut. is his quote worthy of merit if it was also his undoing?
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #69
  • May 31, 2011 11:18pm May 31, 2011 11:18pm
i should add that i don't have any issue whatsoever with getting margin-called on some playpen account that holds a fraction of your total available funds. the margin call in this case, as chicky implies, is effectively the stoploss. it's still risking only a small amount of true available funds that gets cut at a determinable point if things don't go as wanted.

this is an entirely different concept to what some are presenting here.
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #70
  • May 31, 2011 11:59pm May 31, 2011 11:59pm
IMO trading without stops is mental and financial suicide, learn where to place them and learn how to trade consistently profitably with them in place.

Then increase your account size and trade size. This way you can trade an hour or so a day totally stress free and profitably.

I could not imagine placing a trade for 10 or 100 contracts with no stop, the stress of watching that all day is just not necessary. What a waste of time and life.
  • #71
  • Jun 1, 2011 12:29am Jun 1, 2011 12:29am
Quoting jag1966
IMO trading without stops is mental and financial suicide, learn where to place them and learn how to trade consistently profitably with them in place.

Then increase your account size and trade size. This way you can trade an hour or so a day totally stress free and profitably.

I could not imagine placing a trade for 10 or 100 contracts with no stop, the stress of watching that all day is just not necessary. What a waste of time and life.
I think Jag has hit the nail on the head. When your trading mini lots / pennies, who cares about stops, but imagine the kittens you would be having if you had 10 lots on and your position moved away from you a couple of hundred pips.

The reality I see on these forums is most people are trading pennies therefore losing money isn't a great issue. I lost 100 pips but that equalled $1.50. Now equate that to someone making a real living, I lost a 100 pips on 10 contracts now thats alot of cash. People when they post should declare their real trading size and then you would know how seriously to take their comments.

Eg. I trade with no stop but trading demo or pennies doesn't real hold as much weight, as I trade with no stops and consistently do > 1 full contract.
  • #72
  • Jun 1, 2011 12:58am Jun 1, 2011 12:58am
Quoting nubcake
*shrug* that's your perception and the way you dismiss facts and simple reasoning. you have learned well from fti's thread on how to ignore reason

no skin off my nose. not in the slightest. people either see things or they don't. what you have presented, i SEE. what i have presented, you have dismissed as folly.

to each their own. if you were trading in a bank then you would be fine.
It's interesting that humans always ignore the risk of approaches and only focus on the return.
Good analogy with not using a stop loss would be using nuclear power for energy generation. The benefits were great for years until tschernobyl happened and then fukushima happened. People first need a catastrophic event to change their thinking. In trading that catastrophic event is the loss of a significant part of your account or even all of your account.

I personally would never stop using a stop loss. It just makes so much more sense to cut losers out, if your analysis is wrong, than keeping them. After all, unrealized losses are also draining on your account, like realized losses do.
  • #73
  • Jun 1, 2011 1:31am Jun 1, 2011 1:31am
Quoting nubcake
i should add that i don't have any issue whatsoever with getting margin-called
Maybe you don't take issue with that, but you sure do take issue with lots of other things and people on this forum. For someone who can't make money in this business, you sure are an opinionated air-bag.

I never cease to be amazed at the amount of shit that is spewed out by you and others like you who feel as if you have some sort of personal quest to save all the newbies from self-destruction. In the end, no one other than you really gives a flying fuck what you think. If you were a successful trader, then maybe, just maybe, someone would listen to you.

Like so many others, every single word you type here on these forums is for one reason only and that is to massage your over-inflated ego. If Redlion wants to do what he does and discuss it here, then that's ok. Your inflated sense of your opinion leads you and others to try to save the world. Guess what, most people don't want to be saved and the ones that do certainly aren't going to be saved by all the verbal diarrhea spewed around here.

You're probably a swell guy, but on these forums you just come off as an ass, nothing more or less. If you impress anyone, it's only the idiots that come here. That's something to be proud of, I'm sure.

And to you Redlion, learn to ignore people, as I'm going to do to Nubcake. Your continuous argument with him makes you look as much as a fool as him.
  • #74
  • Jun 1, 2011 1:39am Jun 1, 2011 1:39am
Quoting Dopey
Maybe you don't take issue with that, but you sure do take issue with lots of other things and people on this forum. For someone who can't make money in this business, you sure are an opinionated air-bag.

I never cease to be amazed at the amount of shit that is spewed out by you and others like you who feel as if you have some sort of personal quest to save all the newbies from self-destruction. In the end, no one other than you really gives a flying fuck what you think. If you were a successful trader, then maybe, just maybe, someone would listen...
do you feel better now that you took this opportunity to list your reasons for not liking me, as though i'm here to be your or anyone elses friend? you didn't contribute any opinion on the subject matter of this thread. at least redlion and i were discussing the topic, even if we have opposing views. keep up the good work dopey...
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #75
  • Jun 1, 2011 2:02am Jun 1, 2011 2:02am
Quoting nubcake
good one....
NUBCAKE.

i will tell you a story, i knew a group of people like this: no stoploss. We were trading eur/usd in 2009, bullish position. Again and again they pyramid and martingale their position without any stoploss. It worked for months because the eur/usd was in a bullish trend, and retracements after retracements, it just kept making new highs. Their no stoploss philosophy kept getting vindicated because of the EUR/USD uptrend. I remember them pyramiding new positions into eur/usd at 1.5000 area.

I argues endlessly, and furtively with them about using stoplosses. They didnt take a gander.

Then the day of reckoning came: On valentine day, 2009, dubai crisis happened, completely demolishing the bullish trend in the EUR/USD from 1.5050 area. By May of 2010, eur/usd was at 1.1900 area. Roughly 3000 pips drop. They were demolished. Because they beleive in martingale approach plus no stop loss. They just kept adding to losing positions holding fast to the believe that eur/usd will turn around(the way it has been doing since january of 2009). They kept doing this until the pain was too much, and in the case of some of them--until they were out of capital. One by one, they dropped like swatted flies. The market is merciless. The market doesn't give a shit about your beliefs.
Long story short, i was subsequently BANNED FROM THEIR GROUP. They completely blocked my IP address.
  • #76
  • Jun 1, 2011 2:09am Jun 1, 2011 2:09am
Quoting Custos
It's interesting that humans always ignore the risk of approaches and only focus on the return.
Good analogy with not using a stop loss would be using nuclear power for energy generation. The benefits were great for years until tschernobyl happened and then fukushima happened. People first need a catastrophic event to change their thinking. In trading that catastrophic event is the loss of a significant part of your account or even all of your account.

I personally would never stop using a stop loss. It just makes so much more sense to cut...
Black swans will be the end of them.....
  • #77
  • Jun 1, 2011 2:19am Jun 1, 2011 2:19am
custos and nubcake. this is their spiritual father. Apparently the reason why trades lose money in the market is because they use stops. Gotta love it.

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=70464
  • #78
  • Jun 1, 2011 11:21am Jun 1, 2011 11:21am
hah nice one
Congratulations ScalaFX for coming out of the closet!
  • #79
  • Jun 2, 2011 10:17pm Jun 2, 2011 10:17pm
I don't use traditional stop losses, though i had to reply, since i came on to ask a question regarding a trading problem i was having, and may have found the answer, then found this thread

At the very least, the value of maintaining a stoploss is to keep you -in- trades that you may want to be in for a longer term, but in the shorter term are going against you. As in, your system gets you in, and just as you do, the price consolidates. Without a developed stop loss method.. it would be too easy to exit these trades incorrectly, at least in my experience

I have been reading a few articles recently about how stop losses can be bad though... in the end, i think subjectively, leaving a trade alone like that, to actually rely on mechanical stop losses, is a bad idea in general. These are financial markets after all. Natural disasters happen, unexpected economic data comes out etc..
  • #80
  • Jun 3, 2011 1:08am Jun 3, 2011 1:08am
Quoting stockmarcus
I have been reading a few articles recently about how stop losses can be bad though... in the end, i think subjectively, leaving a trade alone like that, to actually rely on mechanical stop losses, is a bad idea in general. These are financial markets after all. Natural disasters happen, unexpected economic data comes out etc..
that statement doesn't make sense to me. On the one hand you say that mechanical stop losses are bad, on the other hand you say that natural disasters and so on can happen.
So, you are then saying it's not good to get out on a stop loss when a significant event changes everything? Doesn't make sense.
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